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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hello gamers,

I would like to discuss with you the defining traits of the Big Six. Who are those? These are the factions which I view to be the most iconic in the setting.

To accomplish this I will present you a system with which I outline their strengths and weaknesses in comparison to each other. These grades were chosen by me how I perceive the faction according to the background material. This view may or may not align with the actual published rules (oh geez!) or your concept/understanding of the faction in itself and is therefore open for discussion.

Note:
This is NOT a thread about squatting any of the factions which aren't explicitly mentioned here. I also wanted to keep the number of the factions low in order to keep the discussion simpler.


Okay, lets proceed. Each of the factions will be defined by five attributes which are:

- # of Troops (Numbers of models on table).

- Mobility (Speed and shenanigans which benefits movement).

- Ranged Firepower (Range of guns)

- Close combat (Ability to cause lots of carnage in melee)

- Armour (Protection of infantry models from harm)


Now that we have spoken about the different abilities we need also a grading system to make it clear in which categories those factions shine and in which they suck. Here we go:

1: Very Bad
2: Bad
3: Average
4: Good
5. Very Good


And last but not least come the factions with their grades:

Space Marines
# of Troops (1)
Mobility (4)
Ranged Firepower (3)
Close Combat (3)
Armour (5)


Chaos (*)
# of Troops (3)
Mobility (2)
Ranged Firepower (2)
Close Combat (4)
Armour (3)

(*) : This faction includes Mutants, Monsters, Daemons, Traitor Guard and CSM.


Imperial Guard
# of Troops (3)
Mobility (1)
Ranged Firepower (5)
Close Combat (1)
Armour (1)


Orks
# of Troops (4)
Mobility (3)
Ranged Firepower (2)
Close Combat (4)
Armour (2)


Tyranids
# of Troops (5)
Mobility (3)
Ranged Firepower (1)
Close Combat (5)
Armour (2)


Craftworld Eldar
# of Troops (2)
Mobility (5)
Ranged Firepower (4)
Close Combat (2)
Armour (4)


Thoughts?


Edit:
Okay, there is obviously too much confusion about what this thread tries to achieve. I want to discuss with you the way each of the Big Six plays or should play in comparison to each other. That's why we are talking about their traits or even a particular playstyle. You could also view it as creating a short "marketing" handout which provides info about the faction in a nutshell.

From a game dev's standpoint each playstyle should be unique with very few overlaps to avoid repetition. Because of this reasoning alone I have put all chaos worshippers in a single faction "book", like it was done during 2nd, to avoid having SM and CSM too many similarities. To add further info to the here presented Chaos faction it is mainly composed of Mutants and Traitor guard. The CSM fill only an elite slot and are not very numerous.

When we are done discussing what capabilities each factions should have according to our perceptions of them and the background material it helps to conceptualize any new factions which could be added to the Big Six. Those new factions (whatever those may be) should also try to avoid copying existing traits of already existing factions to avoid repetitive playstyles.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 11:11:21


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Les Etats Unis

Calling Daemons and CSMs the same army is about as silly as calling Space Marines and Guard the same army, IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 20:15:10


Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in se
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






Well yeah? Apologies, I don’t really see the point. If you look at the faction from other games perspective, let’s say battlefleet gothic or Epic Armageddon, you’d probably see similar distinctions. Like Eldars are fast, orks are brutal and space marines are tanky. Kind of not understanding if there’s some kind of point you’re trying to make. Seems like your just pointing out obvious stuff to me. Although I guess it could be argued what the big 6 is. Someone might include necrons and remove chaos for instance. Someone else might remove eldar for ADmech and so on...

Edit: I really don’t mean to be rude even if my post comes of as a bit harsh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 20:28:44


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's funny that you created completely unbalanced factions. If you add up your Space Marine score, it gives a total of 16. If you add your Imperial Guard score, it gives you 11. Plus, they are not very representative of each army.

Imperial Guards have rather good mobility with their Valkyries, Vendetta, Chimera, Tauros, Tauros Prime, Hellhound (and variants) and Deep Striking Scions, infiltrating Ratlings, Scouting Sentinels.

You severely underestimate the shooting potential of Nids too. The Exocrine, the Hive Guards, the infamous dakkafex, Hive Tyrants, hell even devourer equipped Termagants can put out a pretty impressive amount of firepower.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Flipsiders wrote:
Calling Daemons and CSMs the same army is about as silly as calling Space Marines and Guard the same army, IMO.


You have apparently little knowledge of 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
It's funny that you created completely unbalanced factions. If you add up your Space Marine score, it gives a total of 16. If you add your Imperial Guard score, it gives you 11. Plus, they are not very representative of each army.

Imperial Guards have rather good mobility with their Valkyries, Vendetta, Chimera, Tauros, Tauros Prime, Hellhound (and variants) and Deep Striking Scions, infiltrating Ratlings, Scouting Sentinels.

You severely underestimate the shooting potential of Nids too. The Exocrine, the Hive Guards, the infamous dakkafex, Hive Tyrants, hell even devourer equipped Termagants can put out a pretty impressive amount of firepower.


So how would you rate those abilities you mentioned?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nerak wrote:
Well yeah? Apologies, I don’t really see the point. If you look at the faction from other games perspective, let’s say battlefleet gothic or Epic Armageddon, you’d probably see similar distinctions. Like Eldars are fast, orks are brutal and space marines are tanky. Kind of not understanding if there’s some kind of point you’re trying to make. Seems like your just pointing out obvious stuff to me. Although I guess it could be argued what the big 6 is. Someone might include necrons and remove chaos for instance. Someone else might remove eldar for ADmech and so on...

Edit: I really don’t mean to be rude even if my post comes of as a bit harsh.


I think you just agree with my assessment of the above factions. It's okay. Others may not.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 21:15:20


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Strg Alt wrote:
So how would you rate those abilities you mentioned?


well for once I would raise the number score of the Imperial Guard to 4. It's a horde army after all and even it's pricey units are rather cheap. Scions aren't less expansive then many troop choices of other factions and even Ogryn and Bullgryn don't break the bank all that much and are fairly comparable to Terminators. I would raise mobility to 3 as the Guard definitely has an average mobility thanks to its huge motor vehicle pool and its order system. I would also raise its armor to 2, maybe even 3 if only because of its numerous tanks, some of which are very tough like the famous Leman Russ.

The Tyranids should have less troops. Most Tyranid build are fairly expensive due to the prevalence of large monsters. I would go for a score of 4. I would raise its mobility thanks to their great speed, Tyrannocite and a variety of deep striking and run and charge mechanic. It's range fire power should be around 3 too as they can make capable, albeit short range and rather low AP gunlines (all very mobile though as almost all weapons are assault weapons). Close combat should be around 4 as while they do have strong close combat unit, their monsters aren't as dangerous as they used to be and so are Genestealer who, much like banshees, but to a lesser extend, have become less and less dominating on that point. Armor could be raise to 3 if only because they have a lot of tough monsters, multi-wound models with average armor saves, easy access to concealment mechanics.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I have no wish to be rude but I am struggling to understand what it is you're trying to do here.

Are you merely rating the factions as they stand now, or how you think they should be to emphasise their differences?

If the former, it seems strange to rate Orks as having a higher model count than IG, given that (unless I'm mistaken) IG can easily field more infantry than Orks. On the other hand, if you're trying to score them as you'd like them to be, it seems strange to have the score totals be so uneven.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Les Etats Unis

 Strg Alt wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
Calling Daemons and CSMs the same army is about as silly as calling Space Marines and Guard the same army, IMO.


You have apparently little knowledge of 40K.



Have you tried to put Daemons in a CSM army in 9th? Or even 8th? It's not pretty.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I don't understand how these numbers were arrived at. For example: loyalists have 7 troops options, but got a 1 for troops, while Orks and Imperial Guard each have 3, and got a 4 and 3 respectively. And why is only Chaos considered a "Super Faction" containing 2 codexes, two nonexistent sub factions (monsters and mutants), and one that has been relegated to Legends status (Traitor Guard)?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Edit:

I offered further info about the intent of the thread. See first post. Hope it helps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Godzilla:

The # of troops on table trait has nothing to do with the amount of unit options in the codex books. It merely states, if the faction leans more toward a small, elite force such as SM or like a horde army which the bugs are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 11:07:33


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 Strg Alt wrote:
This view may or may not align with the actual published rules (oh geez!)
*snip*
# of Troops (Numbers of models on table).
You can't get upset with people for thinking that it's about the game rules when you mention things like numbers of models on table.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






very curious why you would rate marines (4) in mobility while Orks and nids are (3). Marines almost never move in my experience, they are in essence the Tau but they can actually kill you if you charge them. Some more mobile marine lists exist for sure, there's a whole subcategory of 'you get first turn, game is one sided in your favor, they get first turn, game is utterly miserable' marine lists that make use of stuff like the turn 1 deep strike, turn 1 across the board white scars charge, mass infiltrate with warsuits and phobos, but you have to build into that usually and marines get more out of standing still and acting as a stationary gun turret than any other faction.

A squad of tau fire warriors is more incentivized to play dynamically and move around the board than a squad of intercessors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 11:26:21


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





@Scotsman:

SM are marketed as an elite strike force which is supposed to hit fast. Consisting of only a small amount of soldiers it is fairly easy to redeploy them without issues. So I assigned a Mobility score of 4 to them which is only surpassed by the Eldar who are a high-tech faction employing only advanced skimmer vehicles (best of the best) and webway portals.

Their grunt units have all access to Rhinos and Razorbacks. Terminators can deploy either by teleportation or Land Raiders. In addition to that Drop Pods have the ability to transport a squad or even a Dreadnought safely. The Land Speeders of this faction are skimmers which allow to fly over terrain. Last but not least SM have Jump Pack troops and Bikes.

I am also aware that most of the above modes of transportation can even be replicated by the Orks. However, most doesn't mean an equal amount therefore the greenskins have a lower Mobility score than the SM. You could therefore view the above trait list as belonging to the "Green Tide" rather than the "Kult of Speed". Various incarnations of the Mob rule and the background published over the decades also hint at the idea that the Orks' trademark is to go to war in a horde.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

To my mind at least, there is too much variance for these scores to really work.

For example, IG can make an infantry-spam army that easily hits the '5' in terms of model count. However, they can also do a Leman Russ army that would probably score a 1 on that scale.

Even in terms of mobility, Tallarn IG are almost as mobile as Eldar, but you could also make an artillery-type army that rarely ever needs to move.

How do you account for this sort of intra-faction variability?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 vipoid wrote:
To my mind at least, there is too much variance for these scores to really work.

For example, IG can make an infantry-spam army that easily hits the '5' in terms of model count. However, they can also do a Leman Russ army that would probably score a 1 on that scale.

Even in terms of mobility, Tallarn IG are almost as mobile as Eldar, but you could also make an artillery-type army that rarely ever needs to move.

How do you account for this sort of intra-faction variability?


I don't think we are on the same page here. 40K is a game in which infantry is the most prevalent unit type. The table is littered with terrain to give enough cover for said soldiers. Good luck maneuvering a whole tank company through that mess. MBTs fill a supporting role in this environment.
If you want to field a tank company, Epic would be a far better system.

Why should the Imperial Guard be less numerous than the Orks and Tyranids? Well, because they have the strongest firepower from those Big Six. That's their selling point. Shooting up the Orks and Tyranids in the first turns AND having in addition to that an equal amount of troops in the beginning would be bad game design.

If the Eldar would be truly similar in Mobility compared to the Imperial Guard then the guy writing the Eldar book is an utter idiot which should be fired on the spot. The Imperial Guard is described as being a lumbering behemoth with a lot of boots on the ground. Being mobile is not their thing.
Maybe it's difficult to get this point across because mobility has been a very neglected trait in 40K as it offers very few advantages.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 15:15:30


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





But you *can* take a majority Leman Russ army, and that would be entirely thematic for the Imperial Guard.

How do you handle intra-faction variations, and the massive variety of lists and playstyles that are all playable and encouraged in the background?


They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Necrons fit the list for me, and thus Sisters. The Massacre of Sanctuary 101 was HUGE.

I'd make it "top 10 influential factions and their breakdowns", each asset is 0-10

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Exactly the six factions that should be at the heart of tournament play, and their rules and model ranges kept up to date above all others.

I'd probably suggest Necrons and Tau being added to that list, but those six at least those should be competitive at all times.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






#of Troops 1 Imperial Knights.
#of Troops 2 Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights, Harlequins.
#of Troops 3 Space Marines, Craftworlds.
#of Troops 4 Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Drukhari, Necrons, Thousand Sons, Tau Empire.
#of Troops 5 Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cults, Orks, Tyranids.
Mobility 1 Death Guard, Necrons.
Mobility 2 Chaos Daemons, Thousand Sons.
Mobility 3 Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Custodes, Adeptus Mechanicus, Chaos Space Marines, Grey Knights, Space marines, Tyranids.
Mobility 4 Genestealer Cults, Imperial Knights, Tau Empire.
Mobility 5 Craftworlds, Drukhari, Harlequins.
Ranged Firepower 1 Chaos Daemons.
Ranged Firepower 2 Adeptus Custodes, Harlequins, Orks, Tyranids.
Ranged Firepower 3 Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Drukhari, Craftworlds, Imperial Knights, Necrons.
Ranged Firepower 4 Adepta Sororitas, Space Marines.
Ranged Firepower 5 Adeptus Mechanicus, Tau Empire.
Close Combat 1 Tau Empire.
Close Combat 2 Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Craftworlds, Necrons.
Close Combat 3 Imperial Knights, Space Marines.
Close Combat 4 Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Drukhari, Grey Knights, Orks, Thousand Sons.
Close Combat 5 Adeptus Custodes, Chaos Daemons, Harlequins.
Armour 1 Chaos Daemons, Drukhari, Harlequins.
Armour 2 Orks, Tyranids.
Armour 3 Astra Militarum, Chaos Space Marines, Craftworlds, Death Guard, Genestealer Cults, Tau Empire.
Armour 4 Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Necrons, Space Marines, Thousand Sons.
Armour 5 Adeptus Custodes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 08:35:40


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I think the problem with your scoring is for me, scoring needs to be benchmarked. There needs to be a standard to compare against and personally I always view this standard as Space Marines.

Not just because they are the GW poster child who get all the support, new models, first to get rulebooks etc, but because they probably outnumber all of the other factions combined when you look at who collects what.

This is why when a lot of people build lists, they tend to assume their opponent is space marines.

Considering that:

Tyranids cc score is too high. They suck vs Marines who have crazy number of attacks, lightning claws, power fists, thunder hammers, super doctrines, assault doctrines etc. I would genuinely put them as a 2 because of how terrible they are - and this is from a long-suffering Tyranids player
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sumilidon wrote:
I think the problem with your scoring is for me, scoring needs to be benchmarked. There needs to be a standard to compare against and personally I always view this standard as Space Marines.

Not just because they are the GW poster child who get all the support, new models, first to get rulebooks etc, but because they probably outnumber all of the other factions combined when you look at who collects what.

This is why when a lot of people build lists, they tend to assume their opponent is space marines.

Considering that:

Tyranids cc score is too high. They suck vs Marines who have crazy number of attacks, lightning claws, power fists, thunder hammers, super doctrines, assault doctrines etc. I would genuinely put them as a 2 because of how terrible they are - and this is from a long-suffering Tyranids player


I think we have a misunderstanding here. My chosen scores were never meant to represent the actual capabilities of a faction on the basis of present or older rules. They were chosen on the basis of background material and gameplay difference.
The aim is to create a different experience whenever you would go from one faction to the other.

And now going back to your example of the Tyranids. GW says it's a swarm of genetically, engineered monsters which only live to kill other creatures. It is also said that their preferred method of engagement is close combat. In addition to that their shooting is rather lacklustre as a lot of those monsters don't even have a shooting attack. So if you really suck at shooting compared to the other factions than you need to be very good at melee. That's why they received a score of 5 for close combat.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think a better scale would be 1-10 with the bench mark being Space Marines at 5s across the board for comparison.

So:

# of Troops:
1: Knights
2:Custodes
3:Grey Knights, Harlies
4:Eldar
5: Space Marines
6:Chaos Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons
7: Daemons, Tau, SOB
8: Drukhari, Ad Mech,
9: Guard, Orkz, Genestealers
10: Nidz

And so on

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





SamusDrake wrote:
Exactly the six factions that should be at the heart of tournament play, and their rules and model ranges kept up to date above all others.

I'd probably suggest Necrons and Tau being added to that list, but those six at least those should be competitive at all times.


I agree with your first comment. One thing which was kind of odd was the fact that Eldar were the faction with the most glaring disparity between background material and rules since 3rd.

My gripe is mainly about the Guardians. Fluff says the Eldar are on the brink of extinction so every Eldar life is precious. What do you do, if you want to minimize the risk of getting killed? Well, you put AS MUCH DISTANCE between your foe and yourself. A very easy concept to grasp. And what did GW do? They gave them the worst standard weapon in the game with a range of 12 inch! Let that sink in. A high-tech race with a pea shooter!
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





 Strg Alt wrote:


I agree with your first comment. One thing which was kind of odd was the fact that Eldar were the faction with the most glaring disparity between background material and rules since 3rd.

My gripe is mainly about the Guardians. Fluff says the Eldar are on the brink of extinction so every Eldar life is precious. What do you do, if you want to minimize the risk of getting killed? Well, you put AS MUCH DISTANCE between your foe and yourself. A very easy concept to grasp. And what did GW do? They gave them the worst standard weapon in the game with a range of 12 inch! Let that sink in. A high-tech race with a pea shooter!


That reminds me, I need to get my hands on some reapers.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
 
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