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Hi all, today, the first image from Amazon's LOTR Second Age series was released:



The series finished principle photography on Monday too, and it will premiere Sept 2nd 2022.

I am curious, who will be handling the licensing for this series - is it the same as who license MESBG, and if so, will GW be expected to keep the license? According to wiki, the series involves New Line Cinema, but I'm not sure if Weta are involved, for example, or indeed who handles that kind of licensing.

Definitely an interesting point.

If there is potential for the new series to become Game of Thrones-big, and perhaps very lucrative, then GW could try and push their own releases alongside the TV series (as they did back in the day alongside the releases from the original films).

I guess it depends on who licences products based on the series - I believe GW's licence comes from the Saul Zaentz company, which is entirely based on these random google finds:

- https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2124765/state-tolkien-game-licenses-2019
- http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=515419
- http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=262076

It could be that if the tv series's licence comes more directly from the Estate, that a different body will be responsible for licencing toys, models & games from it.

I guess we'll know more this year, given the dearth of knowledge about LOTR series we've had so far. On this reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MiddleEarthMiniatures/comments/jn7ckm/is_it_possible_we_could_see_miniatures_from_the/), someone mentions "I asked the middle earth team this very question at the last games day and they said the right people at GW were talking to the right people at Amazon about a deal.". Other details on videogames can be seen at https://variety.com/2021/digital/news/amazon-cancels-lord-of-the-rings-game-1234954221/, which mentions licencing bodies.

It's probably going to be awful so I doubt GW is expecting to sell much off the back of it.

I know Monolith was in discussions with Amazon a few years ago for a wargame (part of the beyond the monolith project). Don't know if they actually ended up acquiring it due to the game they were making that was going to use it getting put on the back burner.

Since Fred was in discussions for a deal at the time it's safe to say it's different then what GW has.

Well, we’ve seen in years past GW providing models from outside the movie series.

For those around long enough and who cared for the game range? Alongside the green, red and blue card backs were brown ones.

The brown ones were for things not actually seen in the films, such as Tom Bombadil, Barrow Wraiths etc.

So, at least at one point, GW held a wider license. This is particularly notable from Battle of Five Armies, a spin off boxed game long before The Hobbit limped pathetically onto the big screen.

Just this past Friday, FW released models not seen in any of the films.

So whilst GW apparently still hold a “not just the films” license? Who knows how far that extends.

In theory, and given how cash rich GW are right now, you’d think they’d be front of the queue to produce games and models based on the Amazon series.

But the simple answer is? We just don’t know. There’s nothing mentioned in their annual reports about acquiring the license (and I’ve a strong suspicion that’s something they’d declare). But? That could be a condition of the license. Absolute secrecy until it’s ready to be streamed, the game potentially lagging behind so as to not do a Lego and spoiler events with tie-in releases (looking at you, Lego Giant Man!)

That's my memory as well GW at some point said they have the rights to all of Tolkein's books.

This could lead to the odd situation where they have the rights to some characters, but not as they appear on film.

Yeah, the likeness is going to be the thing.

For instance? Each and every character model needed the actor to sign off on the models - as it’s also a recreation of their likeness. No sign of? That’s a resculpt for at least the head/face.

Rumour (and only rumour) has it Liv Tyler was quite difficult to please.

This means that one could have a license to whatever the Amazon series is covering, because you’ve got the license for the book or shared source - but that doesn’t mean one can reproduce the overall style and design.

I think the Starship Troopers game had that at some point, they could do the CGI cartoon or the books but not the films.

I've also seen comics and cartoons where they had the rights to a character but not the actor. The Real Ghostbusters I think was one.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think the Starship Troopers game had that at some point, they could do the CGI cartoon or the books but not the films.

I've also seen comics and cartoons where they had the rights to a character but not the actor. The Real Ghostbusters I think was one.

The Real Ghostbusters has one of the most meta moments I’m aware of.

It involved the animated cast visiting the set of the first film - and commenting that the actors looked and sounded little like them.

I swear I didn’t dream that! I’ll see if I can cite it.

Season 1, episode 10, for what that’s worth! Still incredibly meta.

Add in that the guy who portrayed Venkman in TRG played Garfield, who was later played by Bill Murray, and your Brian might just turn to slurry!

Hold on, I’ve found something, sadly without citation as the wording suggests.

Possibly even greater of a coincidence, Bill Murray is said to be the main reason that Lorenzo Music was fired in the first place. Murray complained to the studio that the character sounded too much like Garfield, then later took on the live action role of Garfield.

We also have to ask the question of if GW would actually want to go down that rabbithole again. Big franchise stuff can be very lucrative ,but at the same time it comes with pitfalls

For GW one was that they weren't prepared for the massive drop in demand after the films were over. Similarly TV series do just the same, even Game of Thrones has fallen somewhat since the series ended and given another year will be almost forgotten for the new shiny TV Series of "whatever".

So it can be a case of rising demand, hitting a fast peak and then massive collapse where if you get your timing wrong you can be left either never able to meet demand or left with a load of stock that won't shift for ages.



I also feel that some of the issues GW had with Old World were because LotR was dominating their attention on the fantasy front. Whilst GW seems more robust on avoiding that happening again, we can't ignore that a rising high demand product would impact other lines. GW have limited resources.


Attached to that GW can't even meet current demand at all right now; taking on a bit IP all over again might be a smart move in a good year, but right now could just compound their supply problems.


Finally there's the issue that GW has powerful IP that sell well on their own; do they want another IP and another product line that isn't under their umbrella and control which could be taken away.




In the end GW could do it casually or could do nothing at all. Certainly the licence and legal side could also be complex so it might not even be on the cards outside of GW making models for that setting, just not of the actors/designs Amazon uses.

I suspect it’s might be well worth their time to procure the license.

If the TV series turns out as well received and scene changing as the movies? You don’t want that going to a competitor. Especially if you can use your clout as the biggest fish in the pond to keep all your licensed output compatible.

New money from the new series, refreshed interest and sales from the existing fan base.

This is of course my own idiot “actually have no sodding clue how to run any business, hence I’m happy being a salary man” view, and a such not to be taken as gospel. Or even advisable.

Agreed, if they're savvy they may want to get the license as a just in case to avoid having a competitor move in, grab the license and start producing minis that could interfere with your current product.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I suspect it’s might be well worth their time to procure the license.

If the TV series turns out as well received and scene changing as the movies? You don’t want that going to a competitor. Especially if you can use your clout as the biggest fish in the pond to keep all your licensed output compatible.

New money from the new series, refreshed interest and sales from the existing fan base.

This is of course my own idiot “actually have no sodding clue how to run any business, hence I’m happy being a salary man” view, and a such not to be taken as gospel. Or even advisable.

annoyingly making different licences compatible may well be something the licences would object to (even if they're basically the same thing) so I could see them having to 'prevent' it eg a scale change (bigger than GW Lotr, smaller than AOS)

What is the new show called anyway?

Is it the Sima...

Smerr...

Shima...

Hold on a sec... let me google it.

Ah there.

Is it the Silmarillion?

As I understand it, it’s set during the Second Age- after the fall of Beleriand, so after the Silmarillion, but before the battle of the Last Alliance when Isildur took the ring from Sauron.

So GW already make miniatures from that elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien, the plastic Gondorians from the Fellowship boxed game and probably most of the orca and goblins.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
As I understand it, it’s set during the Second Age- after the fall of Beleriand, so after the Silmarillion, but before the battle of the Last Alliance when Isildur took the ring from Sauron.

Mostly correct. The Fall of Sauron to the Last Alliance marks the end of the Second Age. Isildur takes the One Ring and is killed in year 2 of the Third Age. As the Second Age covers 3441 years, there is a lot of space to work with.

Year 32: Numenor founded.
circa 500 Sauron begins to stir again.
1000: Sauron is alarmed by Numenor's growing power, builds Barad-dur, makes Mordor his new stronghold.
1200: Sauron assumes the guise of a emissary of the Valar, "The Lord of Gifts", and successfully seduces the elven smiths of Eregion.
1500: The elven smiths are at the height of their skill and begin forging the Rings of Power. The process takes 90 years.
1600: Sauron forges the One Ring. Celebrimbor, the master elven smith, creator of the Three Elven Rings, realizes he and the other smiths have been duped, and what Sauron's intent really is.
1693: War of the Elves and Sauron begins, the Three Rings are hidden.
1697: Sauron's forces overrun Eregion, Celebrimbor slain. Elrond retreats with the remmant of the Noldor and founds Imladris (Riverdell).
1700: King Tar-Minastir of Numenor sends a large force to Lindon. Numenorean forces defeat and drive Sauron's forces out of Eriador.
2251: The Ringwraiths first appear.
3262: Ar-Pharazon the Golden, the last King of Numenor lands a huge force at Umbar. Sauron surrenders and is taken back to Numenor. Sauron spends the next 48 years corrupting the king and the Numenorean people.
3319: Ar-Pharazon and a huge armada assault Valinor. Valinor is removed from Middle-earth, and Numenor is drowned in the ocean. Elendil and his sons escape.
3320: The foundations of the Realms in Exile; Arnor and Gondor. Sauron returns to Mordor.
3429: Sauron attacks Gondor, captures Minas Ithil.
3430: The Last Alliance formed.
3434: Battle of Dagorlad, Sauron defeated. Siege of Barad-dur begins.
3441: Elendil and Gil-galad slain, Sauron in turn "slain" by Isildur, who takes the One Ring. The Ringwraiths fade and vanish into the shadows.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I suspect it’s might be well worth their time to procure the license.

If the TV series turns out as well received and scene changing as the movies? You don’t want that going to a competitor. Especially if you can use your clout as the biggest fish in the pond to keep all your licensed output compatible.

New money from the new series, refreshed interest and sales from the existing fan base.

This is of course my own idiot “actually have no sodding clue how to run any business, hence I’m happy being a salary man” view, and a such not to be taken as gospel. Or even advisable.

It can also be a good idea for defensive reasons. If they don’t acquire it, someone else may.

IIRC GW have the rights to produce minis and games relating to the LoTR and The Hobbit Films up to and including characters and likenesses from the books.

There is scope to produce non canon characters that could wholly exist in the areas the licence covers.

I don't believe GW have a licence which covers other works produced by Tolkien or the Estate.

If GW were granted a licence for the Amazon show It would be a wholly separate deal from what they have now. (I don't believe they would even want it).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I suspect it’s might be well worth their time to procure the license.

If the TV series turns out as well received and scene changing as the movies? You don’t want that going to a competitor. Especially if you can use your clout as the biggest fish in the pond to keep all your licensed output compatible.

New money from the new series, refreshed interest and sales from the existing fan base.

This is of course my own idiot “actually have no sodding clue how to run any business, hence I’m happy being a salary man” view, and a such not to be taken as gospel. Or even advisable.

annoyingly making different licences compatible may well be something the licences would object to (even if they're basically the same thing) so I could see them having to 'prevent' it eg a scale change (bigger than GW Lotr, smaller than AOS)

GW got the original licence in part to Pete Jackson having known the Perry twins. The Licensors were pretty specific on the style of the range.

I think the Song of Fire and Ice game has the same license issue, they can do the books but not Game of Thrones TV.

So they can have Jon Snow and other characters but they can't look like the TV versions of those characters if that makes sense. Obviously it's a lot less relevant when the figures are unpainted.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think the Song of Fire and Ice game has the same license issue, they can do the books but not Game of Thrones TV.

So they can have Jon Snow and other characters but they can't look like the TV versions of those characters if that makes sense. Obviously it's a lot less relevant when the figures are unpainted.

Mithril Miniatures is in a similar position with their Middle-Earth minis line. They've had the license since 1987 and it is for the Trilogy and The Hobbit. Their interpretations are from the books, not the movies, and not from the animated film from the 70's. Heritage Miniatures (now defunct) had that license. Those were the first minis I bought.

From their website
Mithril, Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and the names of the characters, items, events and places therein, are trademarks of The Saul Zaentz Company d/b/a Middle-earth Enterprises under license to Mithril Miniatures since 1987.
https://mithril.ie/

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
As I understand it, it’s set during the Second Age- after the fall of Beleriand, so after the Silmarillion, but before the battle of the Last Alliance when Isildur took the ring from Sauron.

Mostly correct. The Fall of Sauron to the Last Alliance marks the end of the Second Age. Isildur takes the One Ring and is killed in year 2 of the Third Age. As the Second Age covers 3441 years, there is a lot of space to work with.

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing the quick timeline, I've always enjoyed LOTR but never really considered the timeline of when the major events happened.