Switch Theme:

Who uses it best? Flame weapons edition!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH


Greetings everyone,

So quite recently I've been bitten by the flame-weapons bug. Don't ask me how, perhaps I've been inspired by the big E himself! Regardless, I've started thinking as to which current faction uses flame type weapons best. Note: for this I'm not counting plasma or melta weapons, as even though they are all variations of "hot" attacks they aren't explicitly flame weapons per the current rules.

My current top contenders (in no order) are as follows:

1) Sisters of Battle: Why? Special flamers that have a higher strength, tanks with flamers specifically modeled onto them, and just loads of flame weapons overall.

2) Salamanders Space Marines: Why? Special rules and strategies involving flame weapons (including the ability to fire them in melee combat and get maximum hits from them) as well as lots of customizing goodness revolving around equipping existing units with more "fire" power :-)

3) Deathwatch Space Marines: Why? Well, as the ultimate in "your dudes" faction you could theoretically equip every unit in your army with a flamer/combi-flamer/heavy-flamer! Now that's some "hot" action! Special shout out goes to the hand flamers from vanguard vets, allowing the entire squad to roast an enemy out of deep strike, charge, then keep roasting them in melee combat. They also have a stratagem that lets a unit copy ultramarines for a turn, falling back and then shooting with their toasty toasty flamers yet again.


So how about it, ladies and gents, who do YOU think takes the "uses it best" crown regarding flame type weapons? Am I forgetting a faction? Have I gone cra-a-azy for flames? You decide! :-)

(PS: Please start no flame wars in this thread, even though it would seem wholly appropriate given the context)
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





Sisters definitely do it good. The Order of the Ebon Chalice have a strat to give a squad +4" to flamers weapons for the phase and do up to 3MW on 4+.
Or you've got the create your own Order with Rites of Fire and give all flame weapons in your army +4" range which is very very nice on the stronger flame weapons.
Both these options have access to the strat to do Max hits with flamers.
You can equip celestian squads to have heavy flamer, combi flamer and flamer.
Battle sister blobs with 2 heavy 2 normal and a combi.
Or throw a single melta or combi melta in those squads and pop the holy trinity strat to suddenly have those stronger flamers now getting +1 to wound.
They also have celestine who has her flame weapon attack

Oddly enough; genestealer cults do have an option to give a whole squad hand flamers. Not sure how many units in the ook can do that though.
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Oddly enough; genestealer cults do have an option to give a whole squad hand flamers. Not sure how many units in the ook can do that though.

Genestealer cults can put hand flamers on every model in a squad of 20 acolytes.
Then they have their Perfect Ambush stratagem to let them shoot those flamers twice in one turn (once in the movement phase when they arrive, and again normally in the shooting phase).
That's quite a lot of burning, although they are only S3 hand flamers.
   
Made in se
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






Haven’t gotten my hands on the new ork codex yet but you could do some fun things with ork burnaboys last codex. There was a special detachment that made all burnas stronger.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 04:57:27


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Burna boyz got a big buff in the new codex, going to D6 shots instead of D3. I think they can get ap-1 with a specialist unit buff as well.

They lost their native Ap in combat, but have a strat for ap-2 and benefit massively from the durability buff on trukks.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Burna boyz got a big buff in the new codex, going to D6 shots instead of D3. I think they can get ap-1 with a specialist unit buff as well.

They lost their native Ap in combat, but have a strat for ap-2 and benefit massively from the durability buff on trukks.


They don't get AP-1 with a specialist buff but guaranteed 3 shots minimum on the D6 roll; they lose any klan buff if they choose that path though, but typically Pyromaniacs is much better than klan traits, stratagems and auras. But yeah now burnas are regular D6 shots flamers and the unit can get AP-2 in close combat for 2CPs as a stratagem. There's also a kustom job that makes models inflict a MW on 6s to wound in close combat in addition to any other damage for +2ppm. Last, Waaaagh now works on them and they can get +1A for a couple of turns.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 11:25:53


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Thousand sons have warpfire flamers that is/were -2 AP. Expesive, but you could equip the entire squad with them. But I can´t say if the are any good since the new book is not released yet.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






As someone who has always had a casual fascination with flamer weapons I'm interested to see what responses this thread drums up.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I just had a real flash of nostalgia for my 30k Salamanders army (I still play 30k, I've just sold the Salamanders). They had +1S to all flamers all the time, Pyroclasts (a unit in artificer armour with flamers that could alternately be fired as S6 meltaguns, because Heresy tech is fun!), the Covenant of Fire Rite to put Pyroclasts in Troops, the rule that let you swap any single or twin heavy bolter for a heavy flamer even on units that normally couldn't (combine with the "Legion versions of resin Guard tanks" rule for a Malcador Defender packing nine heavy flamers; not necessarily good, but very funny)...

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Despite not being actual flamers DG can do a whole army of units with... Spray weaponry.
Lord Virulence, Daemon Prince with spewers, Blightspawn with Vomitrix Relic,
Plague Marines with Belchers and Spewers,
Bloat Drones with Spitters
Crawlers with Spitters
Deathshroud with Fists
Helbrutes with two heavy flamers

Spitters, Fists or Spewers can be Damage 2 with a strat.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




KhazModan wrote:
Thousand sons have warpfire flamers that is/were -2 AP. Expesive, but you could equip the entire squad with them. But I can´t say if the are any good since the new book is not released yet.


With the new book there is a new hq that can boost the warpflamers to S5 and they can use a 2cp strat for +1 to wound, meaning they can wound any unit in the game on no worse than a 4+.

A full squad of those can make make a mess of almost anything (9d6 S5 ap-2 with +1 to wound, autohitting).

You're putting almost 8 wounds on average on a T8 2+ profile...
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




The pre nerf salamanders had a whole army build around cheap to get ETB aggresors with flames. So they probably did flamer weapons the best way, at least in my memory. They were a top tier tournament winning list. Right now it is probably sisters. If an army takes flamers or heavy flamers, not as a forced choice, but as a pro active one, specially if you skip other top options, then you are probably making good use of the weapon. And SoB version of the purgator squad do seem to run 2 heavy flamers from time to time.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in pt
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

Tau can sport 27 S4 flamers or 18 S4 AP-1 flamers in a big Crisis blob.

There's a Prototype Weapon Systems called 'HIGH-POWERED INCINERATOR' that replaces normal flamers in a unit for ones that get to S5 at 6" range or less

Y'vahra has a S6 AP-2 one.

AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Sisters just win. Holy Trinity, while terrible for melta weapons, is fantastic for flamers, +1 Strength on every variety of flamer, Retributors ignore cover base, we have Max Shots, Increase Range, and mortal wounds as stratagem options, and we have easy access to additional rend on 6s. We also have advance and shoot that we can give any unit we want. If immolators were good you could cram retributors or dominions into them for anywhere from 36 to 48 heavy flamer shots total (an additional 6 regular flamer shots bringing it up to 54 total) with a minimum threat range of 25" and the longest range shots pushing 33"

If you just want to melt things with a flame thrower, no other army does it better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vector Strike wrote:
Tau can sport 27 S4 flamers or 18 S4 AP-1 flamers in a big Crisis blob.

There's a Prototype Weapon Systems called 'HIGH-POWERED INCINERATOR' that replaces normal flamers in a unit for ones that get to S5 at 6" range or less

Y'vahra has a S6 AP-2 one.


Unrelated but I hate your sig. I still remember malefic lords and ultra superchicken crapping out a marine army's health pool of mortal wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/07 10:23:21



 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





ERJAK wrote:
Unrelated but I hate your sig. I still remember malefic lords and ultra superchicken crapping out a marine army's health pool of mortal wounds.

This. And then in 8th edition, contemptors and leviathans were such broken garbage that even in the era of ""OP"" supplement Iron Hands the "IH" lists took zero actual Iron Hands, it was 4-6 FW pay to win gakbots. Ditto with all other SM and CSM armies. Then we had Custode lists, again with zero actual plastic custodes, 100% broken FW crap. IG lists in the beginning of 8th were all FW when some genius there had bright idea of giving Krieg and Elysians double traits, then Krieg was massively buffed at the end of 8th displacing rest of IG again, really, FW had OP nonsense so often only the fact it costs mountains of cash and most players don't even know it exists prevented it from 40K being 90% resin game.

And yes, before usual jokers go AKSHUALLY, there are FW models broken into the other direction, being uselessly weak. Existence of these doesn't have one iota of impact on the game by OP Forge World gak so stop hiding behind them.

Maybe it's better now when worst excesses were curbed but I wonder how ignorant and/or blind you needed to be to defend FW in 8th edition when tournament lists were FW all stars catalogue with rare plastic model being at best 'also ran' or points filler in half of the armies. Are people doing so that bad at spotting blatant balance issues or WAAC types trying to silence objections to mountains of gouda in their lists so people don't refuse to play them?
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Irbis wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Unrelated but I hate your sig. I still remember malefic lords and ultra superchicken crapping out a marine army's health pool of mortal wounds.

This. And then in 8th edition, contemptors and leviathans were such broken garbage that even in the era of ""OP"" supplement Iron Hands the "IH" lists took zero actual Iron Hands, it was 4-6 FW pay to win gakbots. Ditto with all other SM and CSM armies. Then we had Custode lists, again with zero actual plastic custodes, 100% broken FW crap. IG lists in the beginning of 8th were all FW when some genius there had bright idea of giving Krieg and Elysians double traits, then Krieg was massively buffed at the end of 8th displacing rest of IG again, really, FW had OP nonsense so often only the fact it costs mountains of cash and most players don't even know it exists prevented it from 40K being 90% resin game.

And yes, before usual jokers go AKSHUALLY, there are FW models broken into the other direction, being uselessly weak. Existence of these doesn't have one iota of impact on the game by OP Forge World gak so stop hiding behind them.

Maybe it's better now when worst excesses were curbed but I wonder how ignorant and/or blind you needed to be to defend FW in 8th edition when tournament lists were FW all stars catalogue with rare plastic model being at best 'also ran' or points filler in half of the armies. Are people doing so that bad at spotting blatant balance issues or WAAC types trying to silence objections to mountains of gouda in their lists so people don't refuse to play them?


...So...wait...people who bought, say, a Chaos Deimos Pred or a Warp Hunter or something are trying to silence objections to mountains of gouda in their list by saying "we want our expensive resin minis to be less terrible"?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





KhazModan wrote:
Thousand sons have warpfire flamers that is/were -2 AP. Expesive, but you could equip the entire squad with them. But I can´t say if the are any good since the new book is not released yet.


10 Rubrics all equipped with warpflamers ( one warpflamer pistol ).

1. Infernal Master gives +1S or strips cover
2. Rubrics get jumped over
3. Infernal Master casts Pyric Flux for another +1S ( optional )
4. +1 to wound for 2 CP

With S5 and +1 to wound you'll kill a raider.
With S6 or S5 and no cover you'll kill 15+ Vanguard.

Definitely on the expensive side with a 90 point character and 270 point unit.

And if one is so inclined you can give the unit sorcerer a flamer staff relic.




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 20:16:56


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's just too expensive, 27 points a model for D6 S4 AP-2 D1 hits at 12" just isn't worth it. And the math gets even worse once you start putting CP and buffs behind it.

The only way warpflamers have any real use is if you're also getting to use them on overwatch.

They're basically like almost everything else in the TSons book, absolutely terrible offensive output for the points because you're paying inflated costs for the psychic and the defensive profile.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Interested in this thread. Is a flamer-heavy sisters force actually viable?
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Warhound with twin-Inferno Cannons. 8D6 autohits of S7 Ap-3 D4 goodness.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Niiru wrote:
Interested in this thread. Is a flamer-heavy sisters force actually viable?


Considering that their flamer have an extra point of strength and that they have starts and faction abilities linked to those weapons I would say that you can make pretty darn good list with flamers.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
It's just too expensive, 27 points a model for D6 S4 AP-2 D1 hits at 12" just isn't worth it. And the math gets even worse once you start putting CP and buffs behind it.

The only way warpflamers have any real use is if you're also getting to use them on overwatch.

They're basically like almost everything else in the TSons book, absolutely terrible offensive output for the points because you're paying inflated costs for the psychic and the defensive profile.



Yea, it's definitely a make it work alpha strike thing.
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




Niiru wrote:
Interested in this thread. Is a flamer-heavy sisters force actually viable?
Flamer heavy* Sister lists have been shown to be good against Dark Eldar and AdMech meta lists. I probably wouldn't go too heavy in flamers in a TaC list though...

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Lammia wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Interested in this thread. Is a flamer-heavy sisters force actually viable?
Flamer heavy* Sister lists have been shown to be good against Dark Eldar and AdMech meta lists. I probably wouldn't go too heavy in flamers in a TaC list though...



Which would be stronger though - a flamer/melta heavy sisters list, or a "flamer" (spitter/belcher/etc) heavy DG list?
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




Niiru wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Interested in this thread. Is a flamer-heavy sisters force actually viable?
Flamer heavy* Sister lists have been shown to be good against Dark Eldar and AdMech meta lists. I probably wouldn't go too heavy in flamers in a TaC list though...



Which would be stronger though - a flamer/melta heavy sisters list, or a "flamer" (spitter/belcher/etc) heavy DG list?
Apples and Oranges. Sisters - especially flamer heavy Sisters - tend toward more of a glass canon playstyle, where as DG play a slow grind game.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Lammia wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Interested in this thread. Is a flamer-heavy sisters force actually viable?
Flamer heavy* Sister lists have been shown to be good against Dark Eldar and AdMech meta lists. I probably wouldn't go too heavy in flamers in a TaC list though...



Which would be stronger though - a flamer/melta heavy sisters list, or a "flamer" (spitter/belcher/etc) heavy DG list?
Apples and Oranges. Sisters - especially flamer heavy Sisters - tend toward more of a glass canon playstyle, where as DG play a slow grind game.


Are flamer sisters really capable of being the 'cannon' in a glass cannon though?

   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




Niiru wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Interested in this thread. Is a flamer-heavy sisters force actually viable?
Flamer heavy* Sister lists have been shown to be good against Dark Eldar and AdMech meta lists. I probably wouldn't go too heavy in flamers in a TaC list though...



Which would be stronger though - a flamer/melta heavy sisters list, or a "flamer" (spitter/belcher/etc) heavy DG list?
Apples and Oranges. Sisters - especially flamer heavy Sisters - tend toward more of a glass canon playstyle, where as DG play a slow grind game.


Are flamer sisters really capable of being the 'cannon' in a glass cannon though?

Yes

   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

GSC cult are really the bottom of the barrel at the moment.

Luckaly for us, there is one unit that is good. Can be spamed. And will carry your whole game on it's back.

Accolytes with hand flamers. I think my list had about 60 or 70 of them. It is the only build in GSC that does not roll over to die. GSC, for my money, is the best flamer army there is.

   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




The Custodes Flame Flag has some pretty awesome damage potential I thought, plus it's extremely hard to kill. For 120 points, also it's a character, plus teleport homer.
   
Made in gb
Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot





I'm not sure how to qualify best in this instance, but as it's a fun discussion, I'll toss Chaos Knights into the ring.

We've two units that can run flamer weapons, not the biggest selection, but you could make a viable and fun (if perhaps not competitive) army out of those two units alone.

While not the most numerous, we might well take the prize for the most impressive true 'flame' weapon you're likely to see on the table top.

The Tyrant and Acheron field very similar options. One being 3D6 shots, one 2D6. Both S7, both AP-2, one does flat 2 damage, the other flat 3.
There's a lot of scope for boosting each also, thanks to Chaos Knights special rules. Endless Torment allows you to re-roll one of the dice when determining number of hits - which is massively useful in countering some of the inherent 'swingyness' present in such weapons.
Other traits can increase the weapons AP, or effectively counter profile degradation across your Knights entirely - given that the flamers require no hit roll.

Taking your Knights as Infernal types, allows you, at will, to add +1 strength and +1 damage to the weapon. Providing a monstrous Str 8, D3/4 weapon, that can start to give even the Warhound Titans flamer a run for its money - on a chassis that will actually see play.

I don't know that they're the 'best'. But I'd put them in contention for certain aspects of what 'best' might look like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 20:22:48


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: