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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






How do!

Spinning off from another thread, as a post from Iracundus inspired the sad lump of cells that passes for me brain.

And it’s do with how Guilliman would, in closer to ideal conditions, be far better suited to sorting out the infrastructure and that of The Imperium. I don’t disagree. He’s a Statesman extraordinaire. That’s his main gift from The Emperor compared to his brother Primarchs, who each manifested some part The Emperor’s whole (stop laughing up the back, or you’ll be held back after class).

Right now though, as the last remaining Primarch, he needs to be doing the main purpose of a Primarch - pushing back the dark, winning impossible victories and being the centre of Imperial Morale.

But….once that’s done. Once some semblance of security has been wrested from the literal Chaos? Yes. That will be when Guilliman can start getting down to the nitty gritty. Of course, The Imperium being The Imperium that’s easier said than done. Not just sorting out the bureaucracy, supply lines, army recruitment and deployment of course. That stuff is apparently child’s play to Guilliman. Oh no.

He first has to navigate the treacherous water of Imperial politics. The High Lords are a council of equals, at least in theory. And Guilliman is but one amongst their number. He also has the added disadvantage of being the associated Primarch of a lot of Space Marine Chapters. Chapters who are more likely to follow and support him than not. And let’s be honest, a fair number of the other Chapters are quite likely predisposed to follow him.

Yeah. Mr Codex “nobody should ever wield so much power ever again, for it is a silly idea” Astartes himself risks, through no particular fault of his own, wielding that much power, whether he likes it or not.

Emperor knows The Imperium needs him more than ever before. The bureaucracy needs to be tamed. Truly needless ritual needs to be winnowed. Not done away with, because esoteric as it is, us humans do like our little rituals. It could be Fish on Friday. It could be your lucky pants. We all sort out our own individual rituals. It seems to be hardwired into us.

Given the machinations of Imperial Politics, he’ll need to treat exceptionally carefully. Petty jealousy can’t simply be stepped on, because the ripples will cross an unimaginably vast pond. Even the tiniest change risks putting innumerable noses out of joint, and from there potentially torment enmity and even outright rebellion.

The good thing is, being a Primarch, to the best of his, our and anyone’s knowledge he’s functionally immortal, so definitely has time on his side. So whatever changes he deems necessary could be done by the smallest of increments. But….does he truly have the patience and personality to take that time?

He’s a Primarch, For His Dad’s sake. Trueborn son His Dad. Why won’t you silly little mortal types just do as you’re bloody well told, especially when I’ve taken excepting pains to detail exactly how this will benefit everyone?

That is his task. That is his duty. That is his burden. And it could be his, and potentially The Imperium’s undoing.

So having set the scene, I ask you, Dear Reader, to delve into your knowledge of the background and throw up those social, political, cultural and religious caltrops as you see them. And postulate on what Guilliman might need to do to avoid them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 21:28:18


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I see the despair and horror crushing him.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I dunno on that one.

He survived the Heresy, and what followed (well, for a bit). So I suspect if anything was going to break him, that would.

Yes, what he woke up to was so far from what it was meant to be it’s barely conceivable. But, it’s an Imperium left comparatively rudderless.

The Emperor created The Primarchs for more than just warfare. I suspect they may have been intended as regional commanders once the Galaxy was pacified. Like Governors, all ultimately loyal and beholden to The Emperor on Terra - the Galaxy being to mind meltingly vast, not even The Emperor could possibly have held it together single handedly.

So, on reflection? That it’s survived at all is no small miracle. That it actually, sort of, just about functions even more so.

I suspect Guilliman would respect that, and know better than to throw his weight around just because he’s the Heir Apparent. If you’re a Pratchett fan, it’s kinda like Carrot and Vetenari.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I’m the Fabius bile novels we learn that fulgrim has a charisma and aura that compels people and astartes to view him as a god, worship him and follow his lead.

I suspect all primarchs have this quality and so I’m suprised guilliman can’t just take control by having most of the imperium fall to his feet.

I suspect the truth is it’s a task to big even for him and even if he were to take control he couldn’t implement the changes needed. Some knots can’t be unraveled. So he can distract himself with the indomitus crusade
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






I feel him being as the sole Primarch left and being effectively "a man out of time" similar to Steve Rogers is one of the main things that weighs heaviest on Guilliman, given that he has no one really to relate to and most of the Imperial Truth values have been distorted or replaced by the Imperial Creed. The lack of real peers that he recognizes I think would be what eventually pushes him down the path of trying to brute force through Imperial bureaucracy IMO. The issue of the Great Rift adds an additional sense of urgency to get things together on the Terra side of things, since indecision and bickering only compounds into further confusion and lack of decisive action to salvage a worsening situation. The Indomitus Crusade is pretty much Guilliman's first immediate act to staunch the endless tides of invasions from the warp and given its relative success in holding the tide, I think it might embolden Guilliman to make similar plays. Otherwise, Guilliman is pretty level-headed as far as Primarchs go, I feel like he might leave for the front lines and return to Terra occasionally to crack some heads together to make the High Lords do their job, it might become his new routine I feel as he gets more acquainted with the new reality of the Imperium.
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





I think the challenge is not quite as extreme as it may appear. He doesn't need to reform the whole, half, or even 2/3 of the Imperium to dramatically alter course. Look how immensely productive and powerful Ultramar is with only 500 worlds. If he could just be strategic with his moves (again, something he is more than qualified to do), he could increase the Imperium's productivity and efficiency by vast margins by simply focusing on forge worlds, recruitment worlds, agricultural worlds, etc. that are most important, most productive and increase their efficiency.

Now, can he actually implement these changes? I would argue that they are the limit of what he or anyone in the Imperium is capable of at this stage. It's like grabbing one or two really vital things from your house as its burning down. Sure, a small item or two that are easily within reach. Try to search for something, carry something heavy, etc. and you'll likely succumb to smoke inhalation. The Imperium has been split in two, Necrons are awaking in record numbers, the Prophet of the Waaaagh has marshalled the greatest Ork forces since the Beast, Tyranids are bearing down, Tau...hahaha, still not a threat on the galactic scale...the forces of Chaos are everywhere - there isn't time to waste resources on improving the Imperium in any serious way while it is quite literally burning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I forgot to mention, many within the Custodes view Guilliman as a potential threat to the Emperor...so...too many misteps and we have civil war within the Imperial Palace.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/10 16:57:47


Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






It’s that last bit that’s the hazard.

Guilliman isn’t human. The other High Lords are. And with humanity comes pitfalls, such as paranoia, petty jealousies and all manner of nasty head weasels.

I’ve no doubt that given free reign, Guilliman could, step by step, start to reorder The Imperium into something more efficient and effective. But, that’s totally going to involve reordering the upper echelons, starting with the Adeptus Terra.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Chris Wraight wrote some rather entertaining novels about it.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Nurglitch wrote:
Chris Wraight wrote some rather entertaining novels about it.


agreed. "the regents shadow" explores the idea of high lord oppisition to Gulliman quite well

Spoiler:
there was an attempted coup on Terra, TLDR Valaorius proved to be a master political chess player

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Denver, CO

I like what it's added to the story. I think it'd be more interesting if he starts to fail. It would also make it interesting to bring in another primarch that could oppose him or bring different strengths to the table.


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Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 lifeafter wrote:
I like what it's added to the story. I think it'd be more interesting if he starts to fail. It would also make it interesting to bring in another primarch that could oppose him or bring different strengths to the table.



I don't think he can fail, not in a noticeable way, as the IoM's back is kiiiinda to the wall. (this gets into a chronic problem for 40k, when one side is "1 second away from midnight" it becomes hard to have them suffer MEANINGFUL defeats)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Guilliman ends up making more and more sacrifices upon the altar of pragmatism. It seems also he is also growing to doubt his earlier assertion that the Emperor is not a god, as he encounters more and more phenomena suggestive that at least in the 40K era the Emperor seems to have become a god even if he wasn't one in 30K.

Guilliman ends up tolerating the Ecclesiarchy and even making concessions to them in the name of keeping morale up, such as allowing a fallen Custode to be interred as a saint on Gathalamor. He ends up not really making major changes in the structure of the bureaucracy beyond that necessary to keep the Indomitus Crusade supplied and going. He never ends up doing some of the streamlining of the bureaucracy that might help the Imperium in the long run, but that in the short run might cause chaos and upheaval and negative public opinion. Families that have been in pointless paper shuffling departments for generations would be dismayed and upset if their useless department gets eliminated, for example. One of his other long term projects, that of disentangling and reforming the dating system, is also delayed/shelved because he has to concentrate on the Crusade.

I suspect his biggest obstacle is something as mundane as too many things, too little time. Though he seems successful in beating down this or that latest Chaos incursion or other threat, another pops up so he never really has a moment to sit down to civil administration or stay put and truly reform a particular area before he is forced to move on elsewhere.

Though he replaced High Lords that tried to launch a coup, that was more about eliminating immediate opposition. It's unclear whether those he puts in their place will be able to do much beyond keeping the flow of supplies to the Indomitus Crusade. Also the coup was put down using the aid from one of the other High Lords. This High Lord was even ideologically opposed to reform himself, but helped Guilliman because he felt the other High Lords had had their time in power, and because he thought the size of the task would defeat Guilliman. He approached it from an almost religious perspective rather than a self-interested one about power. His view was the Imperium is the way it is now because it is the Emperor's will, else it could not have become the way it is. The Emperor's will is perfect therefore the Imperium is perfect as it is, and cannot be reformed since that would imply the Emperor's will is not perfect or could be thwarted or twisted by others.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/10 23:14:57


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Read "Godblight". It reveals a lot of stuff about Bob, Big E, and the future of the Imperium after the Indomitus Crusade ends.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s that last bit that’s the hazard.

Guilliman isn’t human. The other High Lords are. And with humanity comes pitfalls, such as paranoia, petty jealousies and all manner of nasty head weasels.

I’ve no doubt that given free reign, Guilliman could, step by step, start to reorder The Imperium into something more efficient and effective. But, that’s totally going to involve reordering the upper echelons, starting with the Adeptus Terra.


Except Primarchs were shown to be every bit as petty, paranoiac, jealous, brash and suffering from all manner of nasty head weasels than humans, perhaps even more so. Guilliman himself has been shown to be prone to arrogance and vanity from time to time. He doesn't strike me to be a much stronger character than other known members of the High Lord of Terra.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





epronovost wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s that last bit that’s the hazard.

Guilliman isn’t human. The other High Lords are. And with humanity comes pitfalls, such as paranoia, petty jealousies and all manner of nasty head weasels.

I’ve no doubt that given free reign, Guilliman could, step by step, start to reorder The Imperium into something more efficient and effective. But, that’s totally going to involve reordering the upper echelons, starting with the Adeptus Terra.


Except Primarchs were shown to be every bit as petty, paranoiac, jealous, brash and suffering from all manner of nasty head weasels than humans, perhaps even more so. Guilliman himself has been shown to be prone to arrogance and vanity from time to time. He doesn't strike me to be a much stronger character than other known members of the High Lord of Terra.



then you've not been paying attention. just because a character isn't perfect doesn't mean he's not better then the rest.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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