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Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

So out of all the factions that you can play in 40k are almost all of them genetically enginered for war?

Factions genetically enginered:
Space Marines (all flavours) Enginered by the Emperor/Cawl
Chaos Space Marines (all flavours.) Enginered by the Emperor/Fabius Bile?
Orks genetically enginered by Old Ones under the monacle Krorks.
Eldars (all 3 flavours) also enginered by the Old Ones.
Tyranids are self enginered by the gestalt Hivemind. (Or possibly somebody else but self enginers themself now.)
GSC much the same as Tyranids. Although also asimilatio of the local group.
Admech cyborg enginered for war, so not genetically enginered, but enginered for war by other amdechs.
Necrons have no genetics left as far as I can tell. But they are enginered for war. All of their sociaty seems to be war focused.

Not enginered:
Imperial Guard (although death worlds do have a lot of survuval of the fittest.)
Sisters of Battle
Tau (althought it is VERY unlickly that they developed that much in such a small amount of time. It is fishy, pun intended.)

I am unsure where to place the Daemons. They are mostly based upon the feelings of mortals. I am unsure what the current backround is. But there is some argument that Khorn are enginered for war by war.

I am probably missing something here. But I am a bit jaded by the argument 'enginered for war' mostly when it comes up in the contect of Space Marines. While it is impressive it becomes a lott les impressive when it is apperent that almost all factions are enginered for war.


   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






 Niiai wrote:
So out of all the factions that you can play in 40k are almost all of them genetically enginered for war?

To be blunt 40k is a Wargame. Like, they kind of need to be engineered in some way or another for war, otherwise how could they do the warring?

I would also draw a distinction between "genetically engineered for war" and "brought into existence".
Astartes of all shades and the Custodes absolutely were engineered by the Emperor for conquest and war, although they were also intended to perform certain civilian roles eventually.
The Aeldari were made by the Old Ones just cos they wanted to.
The Krork (which are not confirmed to be Orks it's just heavily implied) were created as sentient weapons but it's not so much genetic engineering rather the creation of life itself.
The Necrons were remade from the Necrontyr specifically to be weapons, it's part of their tragedy.
I wouldn't count the Nids because they are a hyper evolutionary predatory species. Is evolution genetic engineering?
GSC aren't engineered for war in any real capacity beyond being a beacon for Hive Fleets and sowing general chaos to make the consumption of a target easier. The Genestealer Curse doesn't make them any better at fighting it just makes them fanatics obsessed with protecting the Broodlord.
As for the Mechanicus, it's their creed that the Machine is superior to the Flesh. It's not just their soldiers that are given machine parts, it's everyone from the servitors to the Magi.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I guess it depends upon your definition of genetic engineering.

Tau have a strict caste system, to ensure selective breeding. As a form of eugenics, that is in itself a very basic form of genetic engineering.

Heck, what man has done to our food animals and crops is selective breeding, again a very low tech level of genetic engineering, but genetic engineering all the same.

Man, Eldar and Orks were all created by The Old Ones. Whether literally brought into being wholesale, or simply nudged along a preferred path, we’ll likely never know.

The Necrontyr, so far as we know, were entirely natural evolution. And I wouldn’t say biotransference was genetic engineering, so much as forcing a consciousness into pre-programmed behaviours it cannot disobey.

Tyranids and GSC absolutely are the end result of extreme genetic engineering. This manifests in the GSC by an almost Orky type emergence of specialists, and relatively generational differences.

Abhumans are a little bit up in the air, as they could be natural evolution taking its course, albeit rapidly. However, said natural evolution is a result of non-earth like environs, so could explain it. But there’s also likely some level of genetic tampering to speed things along. Again this could be as simple as set breeding programmes and similar eugenics.

Humans? Well….it’s heavily implied that life on Earth was the last project undertaken by The Old Ones before it all went horribly wrong and they lost the war. So depending on what they actually did, we could count as inherently genetically engineered.

For instance, it could’ve been planetary engineering to make it more suited to life - shift it’s orbit closer to the sun, ensure a better mix of gases, alter the axial tilt (which the Old One explicitly did to The Old World in WHFB), and then it ended up left to its own devices. It could also be closer to Prometheus, where they seeded the world with microorganisms from elsewhere, selected for Earth at the time’s unique environment to ensure the best chance of propagation.

We then have the vast span of aeons between The Old Ones and now. We’re talking millions upon millions of years, which is more than enough for a species to diverge from any previously set plan. To the best of our knowledge, the Eldar and Orks no longer indulge in genetic engineering, but likely still derive some benefit from the original work done (best seen in Orks and how they Orkiform planets from even a few thousand spores)

   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





I mean yeah, this is the grimdark future where there is only war. The economies and cultures of societies in this setting are built for killing, not living, that's kind of the point.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pretty sure humans were made by the old ones as well, they just weren’t as good. I reckon all bipedal humanoid species were engineered by the old ones and the ones that weren’t much use just got left to survive or not.

There’s a quote that I can’t quite remember that makes me think that humans did a lot of the admin and heavy lifting for the old ones while the Orks and eldar did the fighting
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





If you are going to build better weapons, why not build better soldiers to use them?

Once you have the ability, then genetic alterations for any purpose may become common sense.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






mrFickle wrote:
Pretty sure humans were made by the old ones as well, they just weren’t as good. I reckon all bipedal humanoid species were engineered by the old ones and the ones that weren’t much use just got left to survive or not.

There’s a quote that I can’t quite remember that makes me think that humans did a lot of the admin and heavy lifting for the old ones while the Orks and eldar did the fighting


I’m not familiar with that. My understanding based on the original Necron Codex (which first mentioned the Krork) is that the races we know today were created out of desperation, and were never properly completed. Indeed it was their link to The Warp which destabilised it, especially once The Nightbringer gave them a sense of mortality and fear of death. And it was the destabilisation of The Warp which ended The Old Ones, and eventually lead to the Chaos Gods as we know them now. Mankind hadn’t evolved at the point - and the War in Heaven predates even the Dinosaurs.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Pretty sure humans were made by the old ones as well, they just weren’t as good. I reckon all bipedal humanoid species were engineered by the old ones and the ones that weren’t much use just got left to survive or not.

There’s a quote that I can’t quite remember that makes me think that humans did a lot of the admin and heavy lifting for the old ones while the Orks and eldar did the fighting


I’m not familiar with that. My understanding based on the original Necron Codex (which first mentioned the Krork) is that the races we know today were created out of desperation, and were never properly completed. Indeed it was their link to The Warp which destabilised it, especially once The Nightbringer gave them a sense of mortality and fear of death. And it was the destabilisation of The Warp which ended The Old Ones, and eventually lead to the Chaos Gods as we know them now. Mankind hadn’t evolved at the point - and the War in Heaven predates even the Dinosaurs.


I vaguely remember something about the Old Ones interfering with Earth's development, and setting things up for the evolutionary path that would lead to humanity. What with the Old Ones gone and all, if there was a plan for humanity's development it can't have been followed through and so ended up being left to develop without being meddled with beyond setting up some initial conditions.

No idea where this might be from, but it is referenced in this wiki:

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Old_Ones

But being a wiki, it could be nonsense, and the sources are very vague.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/18 11:27:12


 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

The war in heaven is said to be 60 million years ago. This time line puts human evolution well into the simple monkey stage by that point.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17453-timeline-the-evolution-of-life/

So unlikely the old ones did much with humans really.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Andykp wrote:
The war in heaven is said to be 60 million years ago. This time line puts human evolution well into the simple monkey stage by that point.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17453-timeline-the-evolution-of-life/

So unlikely the old ones did much with humans really.


Assuming that the 40K universe shares the same history as the real world and that our scientists have got it right. Maybe they took the missing link in the evolution of humanity and used those and left the rest of us to evolve naturally. Also the jokero (spelling) are definitely higher evolved orangutans and they have a similar genetic knowledge in play as Orks so probably they were created by the old ones. It all links up.

Bipedal
Vertebrate
2 eyes, lungs, heart brain, oxygen breathing
Eat with mouths
Poop with butts

What are the chances that all these races evolved totally independent but so very similar.

And let’s not forget the eldar and humans can have children together
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

That’s one of the things about 40K, it’s is supposed to set in this galaxy but in the future. The dates on this stuff is pretty solid, no humans back then. No reason to say that the old ones didn’t put stuff in motion that lead to humans, and without their guidance they turned out a bit crap.

The similarities ought not be dwelt on too long. Necrons are bipedal and used to eat and poop etc. Did the old ones make them too, then all the demons are kind of similar but that can be down to perception, appearing as humans would expect etc. Even the most alien, the tyranids are vaguely humanoid, with an insect vibe.

Again this is all part of the history that is better off left as as vague as possible. Like the heresy. But they ruined that.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Well, so far as we can tell the humanoid form is particularly successful in terms of evolution.

Opposable thumbs, decent sized brains, able to vocalise complex concepts. We’re the only species we currently know of with those traits, and here we are, the absolute, unchallenged Apex Predator.

We’re also social creatures, which is another advantage which allows us to overcome bigger and fightier prey should needs be.

There are few places we can’t go, and few types of terrain we can’t traverse (and even the dodgier ones we can make easier through technology).

So it does seem likely an alien species would share most, if not all of those traits.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




On the other hand, we are firmly in the process of wiping out our own food chain from top to bottom.

Meanwhile, crabs.

but yeah, humans aren't well suited to war at all, we get ptds from even short period of it, and honestly, what's up with no regeneration? We have way too much intelligence and self-awareness to make good warrior species. You want ants with guns if you really want warrior species.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 10:33:26


 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, so far as we can tell the humanoid form is particularly successful in terms of evolution.

Opposable thumbs, decent sized brains, able to vocalise complex concepts. We’re the only species we currently know of with those traits, and here we are, the absolute, unchallenged Apex Predator.

We’re also social creatures, which is another advantage which allows us to overcome bigger and fightier prey should needs be.

There are few places we can’t go, and few types of terrain we can’t traverse (and even the dodgier ones we can make easier through technology).

So it does seem likely an alien species would share most, if not all of those traits.
The thing is, you can have similar traits without a human-like bipedal configuration. For tool use, prehensile tails or tentacles would work just as well. Even if you want to stick to hands and thumbs, having more than four limbs would work too. Being social and able to communicate doesn't really have anything to do with being humanoid. If evolution had happened differently, the dominant species on earth could very well have been some kind of octopus, for example.

I've never seen a good in-universe explanation for why nearly all the major species in 40k are humanoid. The old ones are usually suggested to have had a hand in every race from the eldars to the tau, but that's dubious.
Of course, the real world explanation is that those races are simply based on fantasy races, where stuff like evolution isn't important so everything can be humanoid.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





In Star Trek they explained that humans, Klingons, cardassians, ferengi etc all had a common genetic ancestor.

But mostly it’s because it’s cheaper on costumes.

Also if octopuses were as sentient as humans they would be able to achieve more than humans I’m sure. All those limbs, camouflage, ink

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




We think humanoid shape is best for intelligence cause we're humanoid, that's bout it. if you had a hexapod that managed to stumble upon the same combination of social+tool user, it'd not suddenly lose two legs and go vertical, because it wouldn't need it. We're vertical not because it helps intelligence, but because we were short, squat arboreal monkeys that suddenly had to keep a lookout in tall grass that replaced the forests, and getting vertical was less bad option than growing giraffe-tier limbs.
   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Fun fact, the ancient humanoid that tells all the Alpha Quadrant races about their ancestry is the played by the same actress who plays the Female Changeling in DS9. She went from protecting and creating solids, to hating and trying to destroy them.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Cronch wrote:


but yeah, humans aren't well suited to war at all, we get ptds from even short period of it, and honestly, what's up with no regeneration? We have way too much intelligence and self-awareness to make good warrior species. You want ants with guns if you really want warrior species.



..... so tyranids?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

But it’s a game set in a fantasy future. So ORKS and elves and stuff. More fun than painting sentient blobs gas clouds.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Cronch wrote:


but yeah, humans aren't well suited to war at all, we get ptds from even short period of it, and honestly, what's up with no regeneration? We have way too much intelligence and self-awareness to make good warrior species. You want ants with guns if you really want warrior species.



..... so tyranids?

Maybe with real tech instead of inefficient bio-tech, but basically yes.
   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






How is Bio-tech inefficient though? Shoot the grub, eat the grub when you win.
If you cover an Elephant in armour plating then charge it at the enemy, those tusks are going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Thats basically a Carnifex.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
How is Bio-tech inefficient though? Shoot the grub, eat the grub when you win.
If you cover an Elephant in armour plating then charge it at the enemy, those tusks are going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Thats basically a Carnifex.

I am, of course, assuming realistic/non 40k biotech that is "purely" biological, no technological elements at all. In which case, the only armor you can cover an elephant with is bone/chitin equivalent, at best as tough as steel. If you want to armor that elephant with ceramic/DU armor plating or even reactive armor, you'll have to add some tech to your bio, essentially making cyborgs. Which is what would be the most efficient way to go- take sentient, yet lacking self-preservation person with some form of external armor, and just screw plates directly onto them. Give them a gun that doesn't rely on weak biological propulsion to discharge, and you're set. Don't make the creature too complex, you want to be able to breed and mature them fast. 18 years is absolutely unacceptable. You don't want human-like growthrates which limit you to at best few percent of your population being military before your production starts to suffer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 08:50:01


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






The Hive Mind can learn from its slain, provided they were properly connected to it when it went splat.

This is how they were able to adapt their chitin to frustrate Tau pulse weaponry in at least one background example.

It’s also proven that they can add minerals and ores to the chitin’s makeup to further strengthen it where needs be.

Any technological base needs maintenance. A biological one just needs fuel, and the ability to heal wounds over time.

   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Christ I'm not actually suggesting anyone starts breeding War Elephants, I said an armoured elephant with anger issues is the best thing I can compare a Carnifex to.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Christ I'm not actually suggesting anyone starts breeding War Elephants, I said an armoured elephant with anger issues is the best thing I can compare a Carnifex to.

Actually, please do! Maybe someone in the US DoD hears it, and we can save them from extinction via the military-industrial complex
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Why settle for a war elephant when you could have a war mammoth instead!

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/woolly-mammoth-siberia-russia-rewilding-b1923117.html?amp
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




You're right, we could hire even more people just managing their War-Shedding.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Gert wrote:
Christ I'm not actually suggesting anyone starts breeding War Elephants, I said an armoured elephant with anger issues is the best thing I can compare a Carnifex to.


Well I wish you'd said that before I bought all these elephants...

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

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