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Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

So for the most part all SM profile can be predicted by what armourthey have.

Power armour/Primaris Armour 4+ save, T4, 2W
Temrinator armour 2+/5++, T4, 3W
Gravis Armour 3+, T5, 3W.

How come the bladeguard veterans get their 3rd wound in a way that breaks this symerti?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





If they didn't they would get outcompeted by terminators. As for a fluff justification - no idea.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If they didn't they would get outcompeted by terminators. As for a fluff justification - no idea.


That depends on points costs right?
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Niiai wrote:
So for the most part all SM profile can be predicted by what armourthey have.

Power armour/Primaris Armour 4+ save, T4, 2W
Temrinator armour 2+/5++, T4, 3W
Gravis Armour 3+, T5, 3W.

How come the bladeguard veterans get their 3rd wound in a way that breaks this symerti?


Because in the 40k universe rank = wounds. if you're a lieutenant you get an extra 2w, if you're a captain you get an extra 3w, so having more wounds must just be something they teach you in space marine officer academy.

"All right, cadets, today we're going to be doing another 'how to get shot by more bullets before dying' lesson!"

*groooooooooan*

"DONT BACK SASS ME CADETS. Now you, yes you, the one in the back. Come at me with that banana!"

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

They should not have it because no other "veteran" marine unit has extra wounds over the normal profile.

I believe is for consistency with Victrix Guard with the difference that Victrix Guard are ultra elite honor guard of Marneus Calgar not common like bladeguard.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

They are a neat units design that works really well within the game. I just thought it odd.

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





As said, it's about Veterancy, in the same way that Lieutenants, Apothecaries, Ancients and Captains all have extra wounds, and that Bladeguard Vets seem to be more "veteran" than other Veterans.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
If they didn't they would get outcompeted by terminators. As for a fluff justification - no idea.


That depends on points costs right?


It isn't terribly simple. A wound can be worth just a few points - especially on a nearly melee only unit. What would you pay to give an intercessor a storm shield? A mastercrafted powersword? Probably something like 5 points each.

But no one would take 30 point marines with only two wounds and expensive transports so they'd need to be cheaper, but then they can't be so cheap that they become better than Assault Intercessors and more spammable.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As said, it's about Veterancy, in the same way that Lieutenants, Apothecaries, Ancients and Captains all have extra wounds, and that Bladeguard Vets seem to be more "veteran" than other Veterans.


Yet units like Sanguinary Guard are still 2w and it would surprise me if there are many, if any, more experienced or better equipped marines than the honour guard of the chapter master for the Blood Angels. The generic company veterans which are the former generic honour guard also only have 2 wounds.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Veteran Intercessors, Sternguard, Vanguard, Company Veterans don't grow an extra wound for having a white hat, so that seems like a poor justification.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Klickor wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As said, it's about Veterancy, in the same way that Lieutenants, Apothecaries, Ancients and Captains all have extra wounds, and that Bladeguard Vets seem to be more "veteran" than other Veterans.


Yet units like Sanguinary Guard are still 2w and it would surprise me if there are many, if any, more experienced or better equipped marines than the honour guard of the chapter master for the Blood Angels. The generic company veterans which are the former generic honour guard also only have 2 wounds.
Huh - I thought that Sanguinary Guard had more wounds going on - but all the same, I find it just as much of an abstraction as things like Ancients and Apothecaries getting extra wounds for what they are.

Lord Damocles wrote:Veteran Intercessors, Sternguard, Vanguard, Company Veterans don't grow an extra wound for having a white hat, so that seems like a poor justification.
Maybe Bladeguard Vets are just more veteran, like I said.

Ultimately, it's a rule-based choice, not a fluff one, but there are ways to rationalise it. Plus, the Bladeguard armour *does* look slightly more beefy than standard Tacticus plate.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Because stuff is far too powerful in this game and you can't have a unit in the starter box getting blown off the table in one turn by some NPC xeno schmucks and getting Little Timmy disappointed.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Simple reason - all the extra bling.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Some of the veterans, like all of the Sanguinary Guard for example, wear the same kind of armour as the Chapter Command.
Artificier Armour.
Which is about as good as actual terminator armour.

I think it is purely rules related and have nothing to do with their armour.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 the_scotsman wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
So for the most part all SM profile can be predicted by what armourthey have.

Power armour/Primaris Armour 4+ save, T4, 2W
Temrinator armour 2+/5++, T4, 3W
Gravis Armour 3+, T5, 3W.

How come the bladeguard veterans get their 3rd wound in a way that breaks this symerti?


Because in the 40k universe rank = wounds. if you're a lieutenant you get an extra 2w, if you're a captain you get an extra 3w, so having more wounds must just be something they teach you in space marine officer academy.

"All right, cadets, today we're going to be doing another 'how to get shot by more bullets before dying' lesson!"

*groooooooooan*

"DONT BACK SASS ME CADETS. Now you, yes you, the one in the back. Come at me with that banana!"

I was going to guess that it's the new "veteran" thing, like how having Terminator Honors used to buff units.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

It's a "rules thing". Because if gw thinks that primaris #1473, of chapter #374, of founding #3712 is "veteran enough" for 3W, then Chosen should be about 5W apiece once the new CSM codex rolls around.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

CSM codex? What's that?
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





If you look carefully at blade guard their armor is actually a little thicker then the standard tacticus armor, they seem to use mostly tacticus armor with SOME reinforcement.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





They kinda used Gravis armour? I mean, the gravis chapter shoulder pads fit on them. Maybe it's some half way house between gravis and tacticus. Gives you the extra wound but not the pip of toughness that gravis bestows.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Huh, I always assumed they were in Gravis armour?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




No. They are not Gravis. Otherwise they'd lose a point of movement, gain a point of toughness, and wouldn't be able to go into an Impulsor.

Ultimately, just rule of cool.

I mean there's no fluff justification for a Captain or Lieutenant to have extra wounds either. They are more seasoned and higher in the hierarchy, but not physically different from other Marines in the same type of armour.

It's just for "cinematic" effect, presumably.

Eldar even have it inside squads, where Aspect / Incubi Sergeants get an extra wound.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 12:01:57


 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Fun fact: back in the old days (RT, with echos as late as 3rd) you could have champion/minor hero/major hero level characters at any rank. So your could have a grizzled Lt. and a green captain.

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Wounds now also reflect slight increases in armour, without needing to improve the save roll. Same with Toughness.

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





If those Bladeguard were present in Necromunda then the ONLY right answer would be:

TYPO!
   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





 Grimtuff wrote:
Because stuff is far too powerful in this game and you can't have a unit in the starter box getting blown off the table in one turn by some NPC xeno schmucks and getting Little Timmy disappointed.

Simply this.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Aenar wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Because stuff is far too powerful in this game and you can't have a unit in the starter box getting blown off the table in one turn by some NPC xeno schmucks and getting Little Timmy disappointed.

Simply this.


   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Sacratomato

In a game where we have, "Can melee combat 5" through a roof/floor"....this doesn't even hit the radar.

Its simply a game mechanic to solve a problem, kind of like GWs version of Deus Ex Machina for fiction writers.

70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

They're just the terminator equivalent, without the extra wound they couldn't compete.

As it stands the lack of powerfists or hammers makes them a distinct enough choice.

You can't put terminators in an impulsor with primaris captain, you can't deepstrike bladeguard and get a potential first turn charge.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Wounds in Warhammer has always been quite an arbitrarily-applied stat to give Characters a level of extra staying power, and I guess this isn't that different.

It seems that lately the design philosophy in 40K has swung back from "this stat represents this specific thing and you can assume two models sharing the same stat are equally matched in a given respect" to using the statline and any additional rules a bit more holistically to make models "feel" right on the table. Kinda prioritising "vibes" over "hard data". Either approach is always going to be an abstraction, just in a slightly different way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 08:06:42


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Aenar wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Because stuff is far too powerful in this game and you can't have a unit in the starter box getting blown off the table in one turn by some NPC xeno schmucks and getting Little Timmy disappointed.

Simply this.


except as numerous people have already noted, they're NOT in just tacticus armor, but in a gravis/tacticus hybrid. but hey don't let the facts get in the way of a good space marine complain fest

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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