Switch Theme:

Houseruling Ophydian Destroyers  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in eu
Longtime Dakkanaut




I got my best friend some Ophydian Destroyers some time ago and he tried them in some of our games and they kinda suck basically. I don't understand what GW was going for with them.

So since they are cool models and I want my buddy to have fun playing with them, I want to houserule them and change their stats slightly. I'd like some opinions on these changes and whether we've gone overboard.

Changes are quite simple:

- Change base Strength to 5
- improve save to 3+
- they are now also -1 to hit when you shoot at them and not only in melee.

Thanks in advance.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Tiberias wrote:
I don't understand what GW was going for with them.

Let's see.... *busts out Battlescribe.*

You've got a fast-moving, deepstriking unit with enough AP to mostly or completely ignore marine armor and enough Damage to kill marines (including gravis with their reap-blades) in a single attack. If we compare them to other melee units...
* They're slightly slower and squishier than wraiths (no invul, and T4 instead of T5), but wraith weapons are generally worse than theirs. Wraiths don't get bogged down in melee, which synergizes well with their relative durability; if your opponent doesn't kill them off in one turn, they can bounce out of combat and re-charge an ideal target. 3 whip coil wraiths can make 24 attacks that will average 12 hits, while 3 ophydians make 17 attacks that will average something like 14ish hits of equal or greater quality. So they straight up hit harder than wraiths against virtually all targets.
* They're much faster than flayed ones. Flayed ones get more attacks for the points, but they move half as fast. Similar durability for the points. (Ophidians have 3 wounds for 10 points cheaper than flayed ones, but they're also susceptible to multi-damage attacks and have a harder time benefitting from RP.)
* They're much faster than lychguard with similar attacks, but the lychguard are a little chonkier (especially with shields) and a little worse at killing gravis marines.

So I think it's safe to say that what GW was going for was a high-mobility melee ambush unit that excels at killing heavily-armored, multi-wound targets. Slightly glass-hammer-y compared to other units that fill a similar role. They can get bogged down unlike wraiths. They're faster and more expensive than flayed ones. They're faster and less durable than lychguard. Do you feel they lack the tools to do that job? Of your proposed changes, you've suggested two durability buffs which seem like they'd cause ophydians to overlap more with wraiths and lychguard without helping them be melee ambushers. Your offense buff (Strength 5) would have minimal impact against marines for the reap blade in the squad (only helping his claw attacks), and would net you 1 extra wound for every 6 hits landed by non-reap blade attacks. A unit of 3 makes 11 non-reap blade attacks a turn, so my sloppy math says that's roughly 1.5 extra wounds from the squad with your changes.

Do you feel that doing about 1.5 extra wounds (before saves) would fix the unit?


Changes are quite simple:

- Change base Strength to 5
- improve save to 3+
- they are now also -1 to hit when you shoot at them and not only in melee.

Thanks in advance.


Nothing there seems broken, but nothing there dramatically changes the way the unit behaves either. Perhaps the better/simpler solution would be a points adjustment?

Edit: Also, are you sure your friend is remembering to reroll hit rolls of 1 and to take his 2 or 3 bonus attacks with each model? On paper, these guys look like they should hit pretty hard. What exactly are the problems you're running into with them?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 00:45:06



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Thanks for the breakdown. The problems we noticed in our little meta is that the Ophydian destroyers, while costing the same as skorpekh, are too squishy and don't do very much.

Yes they are very fast, but they just don't survive when running across the field with a 4+ save and no invuln. And deepstriking them, as with all deepstrikes, means you gotta make that 9" charge unless you are novokh I believe.

Part of then problem is also that I play custodes and the Ophydian destroyers just bounce off most of my units. We also have Tau, Admech and Imperial Guard in our meta and the Ophydians are just die in shooting more often than not.

Giving them them S5 was to make them wound better against almost every custodes unit and - 1 to hit and a 3+ save was aimed to make them a bit more survivable since they cost the same as skorpekh and those are way tougher albeit slower.

Edit: giving them S5 mainly aims at buffing the melee potential of the threshers, as there is only one reap blade per min size squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 07:47:43


 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Tiberias wrote:
I got my best friend some Ophydian Destroyers some time ago and he tried them in some of our games and they kinda suck basically. I don't understand what GW was going for with them.

My experience with them has been very hit or miss, they are very easy to kill with shooting which doesn't feel very Necron-like and they hit super hard in melee which sort of makes up for their low durability. Somebody got a top 4 in a grand tournament using a unit of 3, they aren't actually that awful, you can do actions and everything dies anyway so if you are careful or lucky when you use Ophydians they don't suck.
- Change base Strength to 5

They are plenty strong in terms of damage already, killing Custodes is just outside their area of expertise, a Canoptek Plasmacyte would massively help on that front though.

"are you sure your friend is remembering to reroll hit rolls of 1 and to take his 2 or 3 bonus attacks with each model?"
It is unfortunately only the big weapon that gets the bonus hits, it doesn't really make any sense IMO, because the Skorpekh guy with the big weapon does not have the same rule. I would actually suggest removing their bonus hits when they use the big weapon to keep things simple.
- improve save to 3+
- they are now also -1 to hit when you shoot at them and not only in melee.

I think perhaps we need to discuss Ophydian's role in the Necron roster when compared with Skorpekhs, Wraiths, Acanthrites, Lychguard, Triarch Praetorians and Flayed Ones. What do Ophydians do that the others do not? Consulting the fluff is also interesting, although there is not a lot of it.

"They're slightly slower and squishier than wraiths (no invul, and T4 instead of T5)"
Maybe this is a place to work from, how are you going to ambush something without the mobility to stay out of LOS, pop out and charge? Maybe M10" isn't enough for that, maybe a 9" charge isn't reliable enough for that. I think giving them M14 would be interesting as that would make them the fastest Necron melee unit. Ophydians should either be Beasts with the Wraith Form ability and/or have their Deep Strike ability changed to the generic Necron one so it works the same way as Flayed Ones, why would they be able to tunnel through ferrocrete but be stumped by a regular rock in their way? There is also the problem of Necrons being a durable faction and shooting being able to target whatever is in LOS which then leads to Ophydian Destroyers being picked off by anyone who can read a datasheet unless you make your charge.

I think they need more durability, but it would be a bad idea to make them so durable that they'd be better at holding objectives than Skorpekh Destroyers and giving them -1 to hit in shooting and a 3+ Sv would do that. Giving Ophydians a -1 to hit in shooting would make them about as durable as Skorpekhs against lascannons, but still easier to kill with boltguns. Alternatively, they could have a -1 to hit with shooting but no penalty to hit in melee, thus making them able to survive enemy shooting and take out anything that isn't a melee specialist, but being slaughtered by melee specialists. Another couple of options would be removing their -1 to hit entirely and letting them use the Skorpekh and/or Flayed One Stratagems to get -1 to hit/wound for a phase when targeted by an attack.

The Burrowing Nightmares Stratagem lets them teleport but it is very slow, when are you going to use this Stratagem? If you are using them as an expensive action monkey perhaps, but their Movement is already okay and I am suggesting making it great, if they are being used to kill units as they should, then they are not going to use this Stratagem. Changing Burrowing Nightmares to give them Character protection would enable them to be protected behind other units so they can survive and enter melee without making them durable and great at holding objectives, which isn't supposed to be their role.

BURROWING NIGHTMARES 1CP
Necrons - Strategic Ploy Stratagem
Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponent's Shooting phase by choosing a friendly OPHYDIAN DESTROYERS unit. Until the end of the phase models cannot target that unit with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any of the following:
A friendly unit that contains 1 or more VEHICLE or MONSTER models with a wounds characteristic of 10 or more.
A friendly non-CHARACTER unit that contains 1 or more VEHICLE or MONSTER models.
A friendly non-CHARACTER unit that contains 3 or more models.

In all cases, if that unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model, it can be targeted normally. When determining if that unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing model, ignore units that contain any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristics of 9 or less.

"Nothing there seems broken, but nothing there dramatically changes the way the unit behaves either. Perhaps the better/simpler solution would be a points adjustment?"
That makes them more of a horde option though, while it'd be nice to have more points for the second wave after your Ophydians fail their charge and get mulched by someone looking at them funny, I don't think Ophydians would be more fun to use.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Thanks for the detailed answer. I really like the idea of the stratagem. I only disagree that Ophydian destroyers would be tougher or as tough as skorpekh in cover. I think the skorpekh still have the edge there due to T5.

What if Ophydians got a stratagem similar to an ability the Grey Knights got in their new codex, where when this unit is shot at, you can relocate them anywhere on the field 9" away from enemy models.
Would be a really powerful movement effect, that also kinda fits their lore. Since it would be quite powerful it should probably cost 2CP for a min size squad and 3CP for a max size squad of Ophydians.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Tiberias wrote:
Thanks for the detailed answer. I really like the idea of the stratagem. I only disagree that Ophydian destroyers would be tougher or as tough as skorpekh in cover. I think the skorpekh still have the edge there due to T5.

What if Ophydians got a stratagem similar to an ability the Grey Knights got in their new codex, where when this unit is shot at, you can relocate them anywhere on the field 9" away from enemy models.
Would be a really powerful movement effect, that also kinda fits their lore. Since it would be quite powerful it should probably cost 2CP for a min size squad and 3CP for a max size squad of Ophydians.

Going from T4 to T5 vs lascannons is taking wound rolls from 2+ to 3+ which decreases damage intake 20%, going from hitting on 3+ to hitting on 4+ decreases damage intake 25%. Sv being the same, Ophydians would be more durable against lascannons, with cover Skorpekhs would be more durable.

I haven't read the new GK codex, that sounds interesting.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vict0988 wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Thanks for the detailed answer. I really like the idea of the stratagem. I only disagree that Ophydian destroyers would be tougher or as tough as skorpekh in cover. I think the skorpekh still have the edge there due to T5.

What if Ophydians got a stratagem similar to an ability the Grey Knights got in their new codex, where when this unit is shot at, you can relocate them anywhere on the field 9" away from enemy models.
Would be a really powerful movement effect, that also kinda fits their lore. Since it would be quite powerful it should probably cost 2CP for a min size squad and 3CP for a max size squad of Ophydians.

Going from T4 to T5 vs lascannons is taking wound rolls from 2+ to 3+ which decreases damage intake 20%, going from hitting on 3+ to hitting on 4+ decreases damage intake 25%. Sv being the same, Ophydians would be more durable against lascannons, with cover Skorpekhs would be more durable.

I haven't read the new GK codex, that sounds interesting.


Well, I stand corrected on the toughness point then.

Would you say that with the proposed buffs, Ophydian Destroyers would infringe on the Skorpekh Destroyers role too much? I mean if they are similar in toughness.

Their melee potentials could distinguish the two units from each other though, right? Skorpekh for the really heavy lifting and Ophydians for intermediate stuff like Space Marines?
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Tiberias wrote:
Would you say that with the proposed buffs, Ophydian Destroyers would infringe on the Skorpekh Destroyers role too much? I mean if they are similar in toughness.

Their melee potentials could distinguish the two units from each other though, right? Skorpekh for the really heavy lifting and Ophydians for intermediate stuff like Space Marines?

Depends on whether you want to move them to S5, if they stay at S4 then maybe the overlap is not too great. Skorpekhs still have the -1 to wound Strat which makes them tough to kill with smaller weapons. -1 to hit in the Fight phase is awkward against power fists and thunder hammers, it has been discussed previously that being able to ignore your own penalties to hit just because an enemy has a penalty to hit is unfair, maybe Ophydians could lower WS or Attacks instead. Removing the melee penalty actually sounds right to me, why would a fast melee assassin unit need to be hard to hit in melee? I guess it is kind of a classic roleplaying thing that assassins and rogues are quick on their feet and better at dodging. These are robots gone mad with the urge to destroy, not a rogue that has to survive until level 20. I think the simplest and least controversial change to them would be replacing their -1 to hit ability in melee with a 3+ Sv, it doesn't make them better, it just helps fix the unfun interaction of them failing a charge and getting killed too easily in the Shooting phase. But I have come up with a more full datasheet revamp for what I think I would have wished they were. I also dislike the chance of losing an entire Destroyer to a Canoptek Plasmacyte.

FAST ATTACK

Repugnant to other Necrons, Ophydian Destroyers are formed when the twin curses of Destroyers and Flayed Ones intertwine. Using their speed and inherent ability to move in unseen dimensions they ambush their enemies in a flicker of dimensional displacement to hack and rend their pretty apart.

OPHYDIAN DESTROYERS 5 PL
No NAME M WS BS S T W A Ld Sv Base
3-6 Ophydian Destroyers 35 points/model
Ophydian Destroyer 14" 3+ 3+ 4 4 3 2 10 3+ 40mm

If this unit contains 4 or more models, it has Power Rating 10. For every 3 models in this unit, one model is equipped with: 2 hyperphase reap-blades; ophydian claws. Every other model is equipped with: hyperphase threshers; ophydian claws.

WEAPON RANGE TYPE S AP D ABILITIES

Hyperphase reap-blade Melee Melee +2 -4 3 -
Hyperphase thrashers Melee Melee User -3 2 Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.
Ophydian claws Melee Melee User -3 1 Each time the bearer fights, it makes 2 additional attack with this weapon.

ABILITIES
Command Protocols, Dimensional Translocation, Living Metal, Reanimation Protocols
Flesh Hunger: Each time a model in this unit makes a melee attack against an enemy non-VEHICLE unit, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.
Hardwired for Destruction: Each time a model in this unit makes an attack, re-roll a hit roll of 1.
Terrifying Foes (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 3" of this unit, subtract 2 from the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit.

FACTION KEYWORDS: NECRONS, <DYNASTY>
KEYWORDS: BEASTS, DESTROYER CULT, FLAYED ONES, OPHYDIAN DESTROYERS

STRATAGEMS: STORM OF FLENSING BLADES, SHADOWS OF DRAZAK

BURROWING NIGHTMARES 1CP
Writhing and hissing, these Ophydian Destroyers bury themselves into the ground with slashing claw strokes and flickering dimensional displacements to hide their abominable forms. The foe look on fearfully, knowing that the murderous androids will not remain buried for long.

Spoiler:
Necrons - Strategic Ploy Stratagem
Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponent's Shooting phase by choosing a friendly OPHYDIAN DESTROYERS unit. Until the end of the phase models cannot target that unit with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any of the following:
A friendly unit that contains 1 or more VEHICLE or MONSTER models with a wounds characteristic of 10 or more.
A friendly non-CHARACTER unit that contains 1 or more VEHICLE or MONSTER models.
A friendly non-CHARACTER unit that contains 3 or more models.

In all cases, if that unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model, it can be targeted normally. When determining if that unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing model, ignore units that contain any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristics of 9 or less.


Fluff changed to make them into Flayed Ones, increased M from 10" to 14", reduced attacks from 3 to 2, improved Sv to 3+ from 4+, increased AP from -1 to -3 on the small claws, removed the bonus hits on the big weapon, removed their -1 to hit ability in melee, gained the -2 Ld Aura and bonus hits on hit rolls of 6 against non-VEHICLES, given the FLAYED ONES keyword so they can fight twice and use the -1 to hit Stratagem when attacked. Changed from INFANTRY to BEASTS because of their models.

Now when you fail a charge it's not such a big deal, because you can fall back on your -1 to hit Stratagem against shooting unlocking the full damage potential by fighting twice costs 2CP, so at least you save those resources. If the terrain isn't there to hide you, then you can hide behind your other units with the updated Burrowing Nightmares Stratagem I suggested earlier in the thread. Against 1W units the small claws can be resolved at the same time as the medium weapons, speeding up the game, this also sets Ophydians apart from Flayed Ones against units like storm shield Terminators. The lower number of attacks with the big weapons makes them worse at killing bigger targets to keep them separate from Skorpekh Destroyers.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I'm a less is more kinda guy, so I suggest you do less and see if that is enough to make the unit usable without totally changing the unit. So I would suggest two minor changes:
  • Whipcoil Bodies: Have it affect all attacks. Now the unit is harder to destroy with shooting attacks without becoming lower toughness Skorpehk Destroyers.
  • Burst from the Earth; 1 CP; Necron - Strategic Ploy Stratagem; Use this Stratagem when you setup a unit of Ophydian Destroyers from underground. Until the end of their next Movement phase, the unit gains +1 to Charge rolls and gains the benefits of Light Cover.

  • I think this would address the two core issues you noted, they die too easily and are too likely to get stranded when coming in from reserves.

    This won't make them better at killing Custodes, but that is a matter of using the wrong tool for the job.
       
    Made in au
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Honestly, I’d just give all non-character Destroyer Cult units Core. Then give all Destroyer Cult Lord characters the Noble keyword.

    That would help a lot.
       
     
    Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
    Go to: