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Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:14:25


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

I do not think it is ever stated.

From my understanding the concept of gestalt is something coming from something bigger then the sum of its part. Think of all tyranid creatures like computers, from calculators to strong once. And the hive mind is like a Bluetooth or wifi that makes them work together. Get enough together and you have working hive mind.

Warriors and other zynaptic creatures are more like wifi nodes. But I do believe the hive tyrant is the smallest sort of real leader that packs some punch to how the hive mind thinks and works. Norm Queens are probably hier up.

Tyranids do not start eating each other just because there is no shadow in the warp. But they will try to eat others, like other tyranids. (Also we use eat metaforoicaly here. Tyranids do not try to 'eat stuff'. They take over a planet and eat the biomass all at once in a complicated force.)

Se how johrumghander attacks a planet. Just throw down a lott of burrowers and breed from within.

The forge world book that death with tyranids also gives a lot of insight. A lott of cunning there, and no norm queen in sight. (At least not inisially. By day 90 or something you had bio titans.)

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






The entire Tyranid Species is the Hive Mind.

It helps to think of it as a single entity made up of billions of individuals. The whole of the thing is the Hive Mind. The individual gribblies are akin to our cells.

Certain cells from very rough analogies of our organs. But the Norn Queens themselves are no more the entirety and source of the Hive Mind than our brain are the totality of us humans.

And like our brains, the Hive Mind receives information from every being under its influence, from the simplest microbial bio form to the largest of Hive Ships. Everything is input. Everything is yet another sense.

Often this incoming data is processed passively - but the Hive Mind can focus its attention through pretty much any of its constituent bio forms as needs be,

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

Wish I knew where that thing about the norn queens arguing amongst each other came from.
Editors of the fandom wiki in particular have a bad habit of not citing sources, and on occasion just making stuff up.
Not completely sure if that's what has happened here, but it's not from any of the four sources listed at the bottom of the article. I've read all of those.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 11:00:27


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

"Bigger claws!" "More Chitin!" "Vestigial appendix!" "No, you are all wrong! We need T5 and +1W across the board!"
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:14:35


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It's important to note that much of the Tyranids is unknown or only guessed at. Norn Queens themselves went through a change. In Epic 40K they were small (hive tyrant sized ish) creatures that were basically weak physically but insanely powerful psionically. They rode the original throne on the back of the Dominatrix titan.

They were the counter-part to the Hive Tyrants.

At some point though the lore or theories on what things were called changed. The Dominatrix gained a more normal warrior style rider;bonded and the Norn Queen became a brood mother type creature that never leaves the Hive Ship.


We also don't really know where Hive Ships stand in the hierarchy and it might even be that the point where a ship ends and a queen begins is impossible to define.

There are theroies that Norn Queens could be like Zerg Cerebrates. Ergo totally slaved to the will of the Hive Mind, but at the same time gifted with enough concept of free will that they can take diverging choices.
This has been presented as a theory why you can see Tyranids fight each other - that its a sort of internal argument/massive biological weapons test.



It's also important to note that Tyranids show a lot of variety. An individual Hive Tyrant can be shown to command and direct whole swarms on occasion even when the ships in orbit are destroyed; and other times they are only just able to hold together local broods.

This variation might not be the lore arguing with itself so much as smiply the fact that there's variation within the swarm itself. That you don't need to gift a Hive Tyrant the ability to control the whole swarm if the Queen/Hivemind/Ship deems that its not required.



Again there's ever so much we really don't know about Tyranids so shifts in the lore might be different authors interpretations or might even be the same core undrestanding being viewed only partially and from a different angle.








Eg what about that huge planet they are building. Is it a dead functional thing or is it "alive" with the concept of intelligence at least as far as we can see through things like Tyrants and such.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The Hive Mind is a single being, always has been. It controls the various Hive Fleets like a human controls their limbs, with the vast majority of the Tyranids acting like bodily functions. You don't need to tell your heart to beat but you do have a degree of control over how fast it beats (i.e. calming yourself down/hyping yourself up). Likewise the Hive Mind doesn't need to tell a Termagaunt to kill things but it can direct them with the use of a Synapse creature.
Honestly it's better off if you don't try and explain it because the point is you can't. You literally do not have the capability to understand how the Hive Mind works because its utterly alien in its makeup.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

 Overread wrote:
It's important to note that much of the Tyranids is unknown or only guessed at. Norn Queens themselves went through a change. In Epic 40K they were small (hive tyrant sized ish) creatures that were basically weak physically but insanely powerful psionically. They rode the original throne on the back of the Dominatrix titan.

Slightly off topic, but this is one of the things that bothers me. In Advanced Space Crusade (released 1990), norn-queens are already described as gigantic creatures nearly filling a several hundred meter high chamber in a hive ship. Same again in Warriors of Ultramar (2003).
I believe the Epic rules for Dominatrixes were released in Hive War (1995), in which the rider on its back isn't described as a norn-queen at all. Rather as a hyper-advanced form of tyranid warrior. I'm yet to find a GW publication where norn-queens are described as small.

I've done a fair bit of reading of old books, and I'm not really sure where this thing about norn-queens riding dominatrixes originated from. I know it's on the fandom wiki, but like that earlier thing about chatty norn-queens it's unsourced, and I have no idea where they got it from.
Possibly it's just another case of someone writing their own head-canon onto the wiki. Although possibly there's an old white dwarf or something I missed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 12:50:58


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think it originated in the White Dwarf where Tyranids were released for Epic 40K If not there then perhaps in the army book for Epic 40K

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:14:44


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

 Overread wrote:
I think it originated in the White Dwarf where Tyranids were released for Epic 40K If not there then perhaps in the army book for Epic 40K

That's white dwarf 183, and Hive War was the army book. White dwarf 183 has a basic fluff overview, but it's mostly a 'Look at these cool new models and brand new army!' article. No mention of norn-queens in either.

roboemperor wrote:

Hive Fleet Gorgon said its Dominatrix and a few battered Tervigons were the last remaining Tyranids who can reproduce. So... either Dominatrix has a Norn-Queen inside it and it's just that **** huge to keep a norn-queen inside it, or Dominatrixes are norn-queen that are combat capable. Or they're just a bio-titan with reproductive capabilities.

My take is that it's the latter. Just a bio-titan with reproductive capabilities. In a sense it's akin to a minor norn-queen, in that it's both capable of production and is a very high tier synapse node. But it seems to be a totally separate type of creature.

But Anphelion showed that Tyranids can reproduce without a Norn-Queen, Tervigon, or Dominatrix. Because escaped gaunts spawned an entire army there including hierophants. And Gladius for that matter too.

Yep, no argument from me there. Plenty of sources indicating tyranids are capable of reproducing in at least a limited form without one of their larger 'factory' creatures.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 13:30:41


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

My understanding is that Norn Queens are the only ones capable of coordinated and controlled creation of Tyranids along specific genetic pathways and of changing those genetics.

Other Tyranid reproductive systems appear to be more based on reproducing that which they are already programmed to create. So rippers that advance into Gaunts; or Tervigons spawning new gaunts. Whatever variations they are capable of producing are only the ones standard to that swarm at the time of their creation (and any possible upgrade/interaction with the Norn Queen). Or any evolution/advance is at a more basic level.


It might even just be that Norn Queens hold a greater volume of conceptual and actual DNA data within themselves and as such are able to create much more refined and advanced designs and changes to those designs; whilst more base level tyranids can perform basic evolutionary changes during reproduction, but have a vastly reduced library of DNA and information. They might even have to only rely on chance as well.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

There are so many different sources of information. Some of it might be outdated or retconned. I doubt we will ever get a good handle on it.

We have codexes, novellas, RPG, and various strategy and action games give information. Not all of it is cannon I believe. And some of it is conflicted.


I do believe the Hive Tyrants are allowed some form of induvidualety because they are better at making spesific decisions 'on the ground'. I think that was from a 5th edition codex.

In DoW2 the tyranid campaign has the Hive Tyrant enter a digestive pool to have him faster return to the hive mind, so he can faster reincarnate on a different plannet. (This is a bit like Hindu reincarnation. Or the programs in the Matrix.) I do not know if it is cannon.

Deathwatch RPG also had a hive tyrant that was very spesific. All of these are RPGs and might be offisial, but the Swarmlord is. There is a lot to digest there.

Are there multiple hive fleets or gestalt brains? Hard to say. Cassius implies it, but that is a x4 game for the computer. It might be cannon.

   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:14:56


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Yes. But the fifth edition codex I belive states that they have some amount of individuality while commanding forces on the ground. Embodies the Tyranid Hive Mind completely I have no idea how to interest that. They could be speaking metaphorically or literally and they could stil have some individuality to how to command ground forces around you. (If the hive mind is like a wifi it could be smart to cut out lag.) And the hive mind would learn from the tyranny in either case.

DoW2 had a structure jumping from plannet to plannet. It could be they where looking for an excuse to have the tyranid campaign follow the other campaign structures.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






The Tyranid campaign of Dawn of War 2: Retribution specifically can't be canon, because the Blood Ravens win...

Specific Tyranid leader beasts can be 'reincarnated' though - eg. The Swarmlord and the Dagon Overlord. There's even a specialised ship which appears dedicated to the purpose (the 'Rebirth Vessel', Deathwatch: The Achilus Assault, pg.49).
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

See the fact that there are unique strains within the Hive such as the Swarmlord suggest the potential for Tyranids to have some kind of identity or soul element within the setting.


It could be a little bit like Everblight out of Hordes in that the Swarm has one soul, but the Hive Mind is able to fragment it into smaller portions to empower Tyranids. Gaunts having very little but a Zoanthrope has more; meanwhile a Hive Tyrant has more again and the Swarmlord enough to be almost an individual within the Swarm.

IT might be that its also a kind of situation where the Tyranids originally had individual souls and then merged into the single entity and that fragmentation is just partly releasing that unity to facilitate independent physical action.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Tyranid campaign of Dawn of War 2: Retribution specifically can't be canon, because the Blood Ravens win...

Specific Tyranid leader beasts can be 'reincarnated' though - eg. The Swarmlord and the Dagon Overlord. There's even a specialised ship which appears dedicated to the purpose (the 'Rebirth Vessel', Deathwatch: The Achilus Assault, pg.49).


A -rebirth- vessel? Somebody has seen to much Battlestar Galactica.

   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

Things get even more complicated when one questions how many Norn Queens are there? Is there one in each hive ship? because Hive Fleets have many, many hive ships, the Baal tendril alone had thousands upon thousands of Hive Ships.

But the existence of the Swarmlords proves the existence of one Hive Mind that unites all Hive Fleets, as the Swarmlord can be spawned by all of them.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:15:11


 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

roboemperor wrote:


There are many instances of multiple hive minds. Tyranid 8th edition codex, Valedor, Devastation of Baal, and Gladius confirms this. So no, it's not one hive mind.

Hive fleets have to exchange genetic data.
Hive fleets have to consume fallen Tyranids to gain the gathered data of their failed predecessors.

And yet the Swarmlord is able to be spawned by different Hive Fleets all across the galaxy, which tells us all the different Hive Fleets are connected and coordinated.

It's not 1 norn queen per hive ship. Hydra effect says hive ships make new ones upon hearing the death knell. And one norn queen death resulted in the collapse of an entire tendril.

If you are referring to Warriors of Ultramar, it wasn't just the Norn Queen death, but also the bioplague. If it was just the Norn Queen death, then there wouldn't be a point to the bioplague plot and a simple cyclonic warhead would have sufficed.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:15:30


 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

Also, I cannot find instances of multiple Hive Minds in the 8th edition codex. In fact the whole codex is written with the assumption there is only one Hive Mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 22:45:08


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:15:47


 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

You might want to check your quotes, you quoted the same paragraph twice.

Also:

As Far Ranging Hunger’s fleets made many splinters of one larger consciousness, so the wholes of Far Ranging Hunger and Starving Dragon were themselves only tendrils of something so vast it was beyond Taec’s scope to comprehend.

I interpreted that as evidence of different levels of consciousness, with hive fleet level minds being part of something even far greater, so we have the let's call it Greater Hive Mind, which in turn is divided into the Hive Fleet minds, which you can divide into splinter fleets, Norn Queens, Hive Tyrants, and so on as you go lower in the "consciousness scale".

And in Valedor, the Swarmlord is able to control Tyranids from both Hive Fleets.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 23:21:52


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






The closest thing to a Norn Queen being mentioned is the bio artifact the Norn Crown since 5th ed. So for 4 editions of the game Norn Queens are not even canon.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

Wraith flight is quite the opposite actually. The eldar protagonist sees the hive mind of the fleet being fought as a mere tendril of a greater creature. An immense entity bigger than a god stretched out across the cosmos.

That passage you quoted from Valedor also says that each of the two fleets are only tendrils of something much vaster.

The same author, Guy Haley, wrote both of those books actually.

The synapse networks of the fleets are separate, but on some level they are still connected and part of the same greater entity. Perhaps kind of like how an octopus has a separate brain controlling each of its legs, but there is a greater brain synchronising them together.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 23:26:40


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The human body has more than one way to communicate within itself. It has nerves for rapid communication but it also communicates via hormones, cytokines, etc... which are all slower chemical messengers. The same analogy might be applied to the Hive Mind. Perhaps for some reason communication of new genetic information to make new creatures has to occur through some form of physical exchange (such as consuming bits from another hive fleet).


There has been a different tug of war between various authors down the editions about whether hive fleets are independent and separate predators with their own separate hive minds, vs. the Tyranids with one Hive Mind as a whole over all of them. The current GW approach seems to be a mix. More recent novels like Valedor etc... have portrayed psychic views of the hive mind of each fleet as a cord or braid, and them coming together, but also themselves just being threads of an even mightier cord that is the Hive Mind of all Tyranids.

One way to view this is again with an analogy to the human body. Functions like the details of digestion are under autonomic control and don't require conscious thought. In a way that part of the human body is under control of a separate nervous system yet that is still part of the whole organism. You don't perceive your gut as a separate organism. Tyranid hive fleets can function and make decisions autonomously and separate from each other, yet they also function as part of a greater whole. That is why that daemon hunting hive fleet Kronos gets left ready made meals by other fleets, for example.

As for the Dominatrix, Epic Hive War describes it as the the leader of ground swarms (and capable of birthing them), with Hive Tyranids acting as its lieutenants/subcommanders. The Norn Queens are on or part of the hive ships in orbit. It's just that GW has been putting more focus on the Hive Tyrants because IMO they are humanoid and relatable as characters for players than a non-humanoid superheavy organism. Strictly speaking neither the creature in the "Alien space jockey" seat nor the big beast are the Dominatrix, but only the two combined are. The thing on the back is I think meant to be the "brains" and source of the psychic powers.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 23:40:10


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:15:57


 
   
 
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