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Hello

I am mucking about with my lists. What are people opinions about speculating with getting charges from deep strike? In Space Wolves in particular.

If I have chaplain come down turn 2 I can use Commanding Oratory and inwoke Canticle of Hate. It increases charge ranges by 2". The Chaplain can have temrinator armour for getting acces to deepstrike (although other options excist, like jump packs, outflanking or exiting a droppod.) Further, the Wulfenstone gives character and core units a re-roll to charges in a small 6" buble. That can be handy.

I have not done the math, but somebody else has: 7" on two dice with re-roll is about 82%. So 4 out of 5. 4 out of 5 is certanly enough to make the opponent play around it, but it can fail spectacular.

Naturally the units that can charge is the chaplain themselves. But what else is there? Wolf Guard Terminators, Wolf Guard in jump pack, blood claws in drop pod comes to mind. Preferably 2 units to increase the chances of something actually making the charge.

I am unsure of how much anti deep strike there out there today. Do you think it has legs?

I tend to find amongst my play group that the greatest disadvantage to deepstrike charges is that my opponents can screen out areas they don't want me in so easily on the smaller boards. By the time space opens up for me to drop my guys into, I probably would have been better off running the unit up the board. Then you layer on things like auspex scan etc and it becomes even more difficult.

I still use deepstrike or strategic reserves almost every game, but now it's less about getting in charges and more about keeping my opponent honest and devoting resources to screening and/or scoring secondaries.

Lots of armies have a "shoot something that came out of deepstrike" rule. Enough to be a concern.

And the question if you also wouldn't have been able to charge anyway on turn 2 without having to risk it via deepstrike, especially with 9th reduced distances.

Both good points. A drop pod would be able to get around the first issue I belive, of getting shot when arriiwing from reserves. (They can shoot the pod, but the disembarked count as disembarking.) But the pod cost 70 points, and that is expensive.

My opinion in this is probably colored by the fact that my regular opponent is a Goff Ork. He rarely bothers to screen. And in the 9th edition games he has such a huge threat range the turn he calls a whaag. Move + run + re-roll charge is such a huge range. It is very hard to charge him first because I do not have the range to close in. There is also too much for me to have time to shoot everything.

Characters in vehicles in particular is a bother as they get to fight twice once they come out. They are ever so deadly. Just regular boys are 40 attacks Ap1 S5 with exploding 6's. While only 11 wounds, they are also only 90 points. I find it very frustrating.

I do not try to tailor my list VS my opponent in particular. But I might be biased here as orks do not have that much VS screening.

May or may not.
Statistically, its not in your favor to charge.
But with some modifiers or reroll it might be a viable option.
Overwatch is less an issue than it was in the 8th ed.

 Niiai wrote:
Both good points. A drop pod would be able to get around the first issue I belive, of getting shot when arriiwing from reserves. (They can shoot the pod, but the disembarked count as disembarking.) But the pod cost 70 points, and that is expensive.

My opinion in this is probably colored by the fact that my regular opponent is a Goff Ork. He rarely bothers to screen. And in the 9th edition games he has such a huge threat range the turn he calls a whaag. Move + run + re-roll charge is such a huge range. It is very hard to charge him first because I do not have the range to close in. There is also too much for me to have time to shoot everything.

Characters in vehicles in particular is a bother as they get to fight twice once they come out. They are ever so deadly. Just regular boys are 40 attacks Ap1 S5 with exploding 6's. While only 11 wounds, they are also only 90 points. I find it very frustrating.

I do not try to tailor my list VS my opponent in particular. But I might be biased here as orks do not have that much VS screening.

Orks don't get to fight twice, there's no rule in their codex that allows them to do it.

Their characters can fight on death. And their characters are very good on the offense. Witch often leads to some loose more situations unless you can shoot them. But this tends to be difficult.

 Niiai wrote:
Their characters can fight on death. And their characters are very good on the offense. Witch often leads to some loose more situations unless you can shoot them. But this tends to be difficult.

Orks is Never Beaten can only be triggered if they didn't already fight that turn.

 Niiai wrote:
Their characters can fight on death. And their characters are very good on the offense. Witch often leads to some loose more situations unless you can shoot them. But this tends to be difficult.

Every faction has that stratagem, SM one is called "Only in death does duty end". Still it's restricted to fallen characters that didn't fight in that turn, they can't fight twice. And dying smash SW characters are equally killy. It's the assault intercessors that can really fight twice, also through stratagem.

Drukhari have a few powerful models that can fight twice, as free built-in ability, even if they have not died.

But orks really can't fight twice.

Well not every faction has character fighting in death stratagem. Sisters one is limited to one specific unit(repentia). Pretty sure IG is missing one as well

Remember one of the best bits about canticle of hate for charging out of deepstrike is it also allows longer pile in and consolidate moves if you manage to keep within the chaplain aura. With space wolves you could also use saga of the hunter on the chaplain to allow advance and charge if you manage to survive a turn, all this bonus movement allows you to be quite sneaky and cover a surprising amount of board with traditionally slow units like terminators (moving models in 3 phases, each time further than you normally would expect).

tneva82 wrote:
Well not every faction has character fighting in death stratagem. Sisters one is limited to one specific unit(repentia). Pretty sure IG is missing one as well

I too would recommend using a 2 CP stratagem to make 3 attack Yarrick fight, killing a single space marine on average.

Hmmm... it seems that stratagem has changed. On the old one you could fight even if you had already fought. This makes warbosses a lott more managble.

Yeah, deepstrike only needed 7 on the dice. Opinions are stil welcome. :-)

Deepstrike for me isn't something I do to get a charge in.

It protects my unit, forces my opponent to leave more models in their DZ, allows me to react to parts of the table that are suffering, and gives me a tool to open up mistakes by my opponent.

Your general goal won't be to just drop them in and charge. The plan should be to clear everything between you and the units on objectives. Then you deepstrike in your territory and charge onto the objective. Auspex is a consideration, but I think most are going to be just one unit now and won't likely knock off your unit. Then you hopefully either contest or wipe them and turn off their primary for next turn, which then forces them to deal with those units first before the rest of your army.

Perhaps I jsut do not take enough shooting units then.

Outside of the competetive list where very one is just spamming Redemptor Dreadnoughts and relic contemptor dreadnoughts, what kind of shooting do people put in space marine lists to get enough shooting?

With SW my shooting resolves around 3 razorbacks with assault cannons and a land raider crusader for anti infantry, a squad of lascannon long fangs and lascannon bjorn for ranged anti tank. Then there are bolters and a few plasma/melta guns in troops squads.

Huh, that sounds like a very 'traditional list'. It is nice to see them around. I did not know that razorbacks with assault cannon are not legend, I forge world stil has them.

Well I haven't bought anything in 8th and 9th for that faction, my collection is a 5th-7th SW army with full firstborn units that I consider complete. Still works in casual gaming but I'm sure that updated collections would be much more effective.

In my meta priority is to bring lots of anti infantry (light or heavy) shots rather than anti tank, to deal with orks, harlequins, tyranids, sisters, ad mech, drukhari and deathguard mostly, otherwise twin lascannons razorbacks would be good as well.