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Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




1. This is from 1d4chan
It is worth noting that while most sorcerers are psykers, and a psyker's natural affinity with the Warp does give them a better advantage, not all sorcerers are psykers and certainly not all psykers are sorcerers. Sorcery leans more towards ritual and using mediums to manipulate the forces of the warp (like cursed artifacts, demonic symbology, and pacts),
Is this true? Anyone have sources on this?

2. Can non-chaos worshippers summon and manipulate daemons the same way dark mechanicus warpsmiths bind and enslave daemons into daemon engines? So like lets say some arrogant moron thinks he's smarter than everyone else and thinks he can enslave daemons without any repercussions. Can he enslave daemons to his will without worshipping any chaos god? Assuming he got the knowledge somehow, like from a cowardly warpsmith who taught him how to do it so if something goes wrong he's not butchered to pieces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 06:43:53


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

For the longest time all of these things where slightly different. At some point GW just came out and grouped them all together and said everyone was just manipulating the warp, and everyone was happy. It was always implied, not stated. I do believe even the tyranids use the warp these days.

Mostly the difference between a sorcerer and a psyker is a flavor thing. Although in the books inquisitor psykers muck about with sorcerer tomes. It is mostly just local jargon.

Yes, every one can benefit from the warp. Although if you do not know much about it how to pull it off can be hard. In the DoW games for instance you get some blessing of khorne of you are bloddy and hold a particularly land. (Campaign expansion.) No volenteraly worship involved. You even keep feeding a daemon the whole game and you do not even know it. (First game.)

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Well.

Kind of.

Ish.

Psychic abilities can be granted as a Chaos Reward, basically a somewhat more useful and infinitely more dangerous mutation than say, getting Bum Eyes.

Sorcerers however are Psykers. They’re more powerful than common or garden variety because they use their abilities to make daemonic pacts etc.

You don’t need to be a Chaos worshipper or follower - but you do need the information of one.

We see this in the Inquisition, where radical Inquisitors can bind Daemonhosts to their service, and even wield Daemon weapons. The risk there of course is the all pervasive nature of Chaos. You can’t dabble with it without it dabbling back

Grey Knights also make use of wards, such as Hexagrammatic ones. One cannot come to that knowledge without first having knowledge of Chaos. That knowledge could potentially be bargained for, or extracted via torture and “confessions” of known Heretics, or by obtaining their writings.

Sorcery itself is essentially using your native psychic abilities to summon and bargain with warp entities for greater power - but outside of the notoriously unreliable 1d4chan, I can’t think of any examples of a non-psychic being able to start that first step on their own. They could (such as an Inquisitor) use another Psyker to get the ball rolling, but that still isn’t them doing it off their own back.

   
Made in nl
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Regarding 2: this reminds me of daemonhosts, which are (afaik) chaos demons bound to a human body by radical inquisitors (of which at least some are still on the "good" side of the spectrum; for how long is another matter entirely). I'd *assume* this implies a "good"-aligned person binding a daemon to a vehicle could work too, but relying on the now vehicular demon to do anything other than trying to horribly murder you will end up with it doing exactly that.
   
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Dakka Veteran




roboemperor wrote:
1. This is from 1d4chan
It is worth noting that while most sorcerers are psykers, and a psyker's natural affinity with the Warp does give them a better advantage, not all sorcerers are psykers and certainly not all psykers are sorcerers. Sorcery leans more towards ritual and using mediums to manipulate the forces of the warp (like cursed artifacts, demonic symbology, and pacts),
Is this true? Anyone have sources on this?

2. Can non-chaos worshippers summon and manipulate daemons the same way dark mechanicus warpsmiths bind and enslave daemons into daemon engines? So like lets say some arrogant moron thinks he's smarter than everyone else and thinks he can enslave daemons without any repercussions. Can he enslave daemons to his will without worshipping any chaos god? Assuming he got the knowledge somehow, like from a cowardly warpsmith who taught him how to do it so if something goes wrong he's not butchered to pieces.


This mostly comes from the Index Astartes: Thousand Sons article (3rd Ed Era), however I don’t have it to hand to say if that’s a truly accurate summary. It’s worth noting however that the article’s distinction between psykers and sorcerers has since been retconned to be an ‘in universe’ retcon of the Council of Nikea to cover the fact that during the Heresy the loyalists totally chinned off the original wording of the Emperor’s decree.

That said, in the Heresy books there are a lot of Word Bearers who use ritual objects to produce warp effects without obviously being psykers. Note however:
1) they are Chaos worshipers and their worship is an intrinsically important part of why it works.
2) to some degree they may well be latent psykers anyway, just not powerful enough to produce warp effects without the ritual.

In the example of your moron - he probably would have no success using the warpsmith’s rituals unless he either had some degrees of psychic power or aped worshiping Chaos enough that he in effect becomes a Chaos worshipper, regardless of original intent.
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

The subversive corruption of chaos suggests that even if you did bind daemons and weren't actively a chaos worshipper, you would be before long. The Imperium would certainly see you as such.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




It was flat out stated in the Dawn of war series that Acts of EXTREME faith are indistinguisable from Warp magic, I.E. acts of god.

Put in another way, so many people had faith in the Militant Apostolic that he was able to not only withstand the effects of a deadly Nurgle storm that literally dissolved several Primaris and a Lehman Russ, but destroy one of Nurgle's holy Relics just by touching it. The Farseer comes out and states it is how Guilliman is able to do the things he does, due to Humanity's faith in him.

Extreme faith in a person can alter the warp and give that person warp-esque powers. See: Sisters of Battle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/03 01:43:32


 
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

Erebus is not a natural psyker, and yet was able to use an incantation to teleport himself off of a World Eaters ship before Kharn could kill him in a duel. Same with Kor Phaeron, a sorcerer of such power he could actually lay Guilliman low at least temporarily.

Enuncia is also a form of sorcery utilizing language that non-psykers can make use of. Molotch, the villain of Ravenor, was able to use it despite not being a natural psyker, as was Kasper Hawser, skjald of the Space Wolves, during the battle of Prospero.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/03 05:56:10


 
   
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Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Presumably non-psychic sorcerors summon Khorne daemons, given Khorne's hatred of psykers.

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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I've always seen it as psykers are those who are genetically capable of manipulating/using the energy of the warp, whereas sorcerers are people who use unnatural means (ritual, artefacts, etc.) to achieve the same (or similar) results.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

You can also use both, with sorcery sort of supplementing a psyker's powers. The Thousand Sons are a notable example of this, being led by natural psykers who have also delved into sorcery to increase their power further.
   
 
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