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Where do people stand on legend units? I would not mind my opponent bringing one. But I am reluctant to bring one myself.

Ps: Do anybody know if razorback with multimelta is legend or not?

Don't have any so don't bother to ask permission to use but if opponent wants to bring feel free.

And yes that razorback option is legends. forge world legends PDF, page 31.

There is no need to ask permission. Legends are still legal in matched play.

I theoretically don’t have an issue with it.

If someone wants to use an old favorite model, that’s fine.
If someone needs options for the theme list (librarian on bike for a mobile list), also good.

If someone is taking advantage of the fact that the rules/points are not being updated to leverage some broken interaction of to field a pre-nerfed version of something that needed to be toned down, not fine.

I’ll still play, as they are legal rules. But I might think less of you depending on the reasons, and it might impact the chance of another game.

Circumstances and intent make a huge difference in questions like this one.

I'm fine with legends but as mentioned above it does depend on the reason for bringing it.

The standard rules of don't be a dick are certainly in play.

Further to that I'm fine if my opponent wants to bring a legends unit and we update it with more modern rules that it should have - things like certain legend marine units gaining a wound and such.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I'm fine with legends but as mentioned above it does depend on the reason for bringing it.

The standard rules of don't be a dick are certainly in play.

Yeah, this basically.

I still want to use my Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, he's cool and fluffy.

I don't bring them but am fine with others doing so. I am sad my painboyz on bikes are no longer valid as they are legends after the conversions i did and it was a pretty big nerf to my all ork bikers and wartraxx/buggies (the old kind) list.

Checks sig, erm, honestly, i were in favour of legends if they were done propperly.
No they are not done propperly.

Do i still think that people should be able to field them? yes. but as others stated, if it is just to be a dick... don't bother with them
That gives the rest of those of us still holding on to Legends armies and factions a bad rep.

Are there any especially broken Legends units?

And I’ll echo the general theme-if you have an old unit that you still want to use, maybe we need to tweak it, but have fun. If you’re abusing the system, I just won’t play you.

I believe Legends will end up becoming taboo.

Intent will be the deciding factor as some have pointed out. If the intent is exploitation to gain an unfair advantage, then no.

Issue with legends is since they wont update them they both have old rules and dont get new rules the army now has.
And simply swapping them can break things, as some rules being removed warrants a price drop and some a price hyke for being added.

I saw several people mention running 3 SAG Bikers when we found out Heavy doesnt cause a movement penalty on bikers. Prime example of why its a problem to use them once the codex or core rules change lol.

Its fine if its along the lines of "i have this model, im using it" but generally people want the legends stuff because of some bonkers dumb reason due to the weirdness of the rules being left alone. Like i wouldnt give anyone crap for wanting to run a Battlefortress if they had a model for it but i would be annoyed if they made a new model to run it because theres some obscene reason to run it beyond "its cool looking"

No problem with legends here, I bring my sorcerer on Palanquin every now and then.
If these units weren't in legends we'd write our own profiles for them, GW won't make me shelf a painted Mini.

Two legendary units in my stock:
Dreads with two autocannons and Autarch on jetbike with missile launcher.

I literally have not run into a player using a legends unit/model since 8th. Are there any advantageous legends units? Librarian Dreanaught is the only thing that springs to mind? The rest are mostly sub-9th levels of cheese.

I think its a great system that far more game systems should adopt.

They probably shouldn't be allowed in official tournaments. The idea of "Standard" is to keep the options limited to the scope development can manage and accessible to new players wanting to jump in now. Legends is an extra burden on both those fronts that really is unlikely to please anyone. Either people frustrated this outdated model is meta defining, or people disappointed their beloved old model is outdated and not competitive.

Any other context Legends should absolutely be allowed. They're just models with rules. And to be clear, anyone wanting to bring models with rules that aren't tourney legal probably isn't going to provide you with the kind of tourney practice that night regardless of what you bring. Just play and have fun.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Librarian Dreanaught is the only thing that springs to mind?

The Librarian Dreadnought is not Legends

I think Chaplain Dreadnought is legend.

Yeah, I quite like it a lott. I am a bit conserved if the point values do not change.

And strange interactions like librarians having old discipline powers I believe.

I stand with my ridiculous Land Raider Terminus Ultra :-)

It hasn't won me a game yet, nor really even contributed all that much, but dang it: that thing is BRISTLING with las-cannons and that's a good enough reason for me!

Since this won't be for tournaments you and your opponent can agree to play with anything.

But ask yourself, are you bringing the model because it is powerful or broken, or is because it's fluffy or the model is cool? If it's the latter, I don't know why anyone would object.

I have the same personal rule with conversion. If it's for advantage (big base size, height, etc.) sod off. If it's for the model then bring it on and get that beautiful model on the table.

 buddha wrote:
Since this won't be for tournaments you and your opponent can agree to play with anything.

But ask yourself, are you bringing the model because it is powerful or broken, or is because it's fluffy or the model is cool? If it's the latter, I don't know why anyone would object.

I have the same personal rule with conversion. If it's for advantage (big base size, height, etc.) sod off. If it's for the model then bring it on and get that beautiful model on the table.

This is the way.

Shouldn't this have a poll?

Anyway. Legend units.

Full use always and forever.

Why? Because they weren't removed from Codices due to any in-game reason. They were removed because they are legacy miniatures that GW/FW no longer produce, and GW doesn't want to completely invalidate entire swathes of old models and annoy their players. So they have rules for the game, and people can use them, but they're not going to endlessly reprint them in each new Codex. It's to cut down the work at their end so that 10 years from now they're not still reprinting Random Special Character X for a miniature that was on sale for 20 seconds at some event. It has nothing to do with balance or anything like that, so refusing to use them for fear of them being overpowered doesn't make any sense.

Speaking of which...

 oni wrote:
If the intent is exploitation to gain an unfair advantage, then no.

 buddha wrote:
But ask yourself, are you bringing the model because it is powerful or broken, or is because it's fluffy or the model is cool? If it's the latter, I don't know why anyone would object.

See this type of argument has always bothered me, as it's the one people used to use (and some still do) against including FW units.

The idea that Legend units somehow give some hidden unfair bonus, or that they are in some way more broken/powerful the inherent unfair/unbalanced/broken/powerful things that are in the published Codices that we freely use right now is absurd.

All adding an "opponent's permission" or other special conditions to a unit just makes people suspicious of their use, and bar them out of fear of losing. It's why special characters requiring opponent's permission was a dumb idea, because everyone will assume "It must be because they're overpowered!".

^^^This. I'd really like someone to explain to me how my R&H (now a fully Legends army) is OP. Same for the fw argument: yeah, my Sicaran is sooo much better than a (cheaper and tougher) PBC.

It didn’t take too much work but I am proud of my chaos lord on a bike conversion and hope to still be able to use it. (it’s not finished because I glued the exalted champ to the back like he is about to chop someone’s head off as they ride by. I just need to green stuff him a cable or chain to make it look like the dagger hand is holding the chain wrapped around the actual biker’s neck or body. He was meant to be slaaneshi so I figured it would make an interesting nod to bdsm without being sexually explicit).

 JNAProductions wrote:
Are there any especially broken Legends units?

And I’ll echo the general theme-if you have an old unit that you still want to use, maybe we need to tweak it, but have fun. If you’re abusing the system, I just won’t play you.

Chaplain dreadnought was problem in tournaments before legends. Albeit has 9e and codexes creeped power level up enough it would be tame now?

How was the chaplain dreadnought a problem? If there is a problem with character dreadnoughts SW has 2 named once, both very good. Iron Hands can upgrade any dreadnought to be a character. Othervice the chaplain dreadnought was just a venerable dreadnought stats, and the chaplain rules. Seems OK to me.

More of a rules question I guess, but can you put the chaplain 25 point upgrade in him, wice orator I think it is called?

 Niiai wrote:
How was the chaplain dreadnought a problem? If there is a problem with character dreadnoughts SW has 2 named once, both very good. Iron Hands can upgrade any dreadnought to be a character. Othervice the chaplain dreadnought was just a venerable dreadnought stats, and the chaplain rules. Seems OK to me.

More of a rules question I guess, but can you put the chaplain 25 point upgrade in him, wice orator I think it is called?

Spammable BS2+ long range gun you can't target with guns. Which then generally didn't die with wound transfer shenigans etc. Don't remember exact combo's but if you go over tournament talk around 2020 spring this was dominating top tables quite a bit. BTW it was also done with iron hands.

Though as said whether it's still would be issue is another thing. Not sure are all the stratagems and combo's even possible anymore and due to not having core keyword lost access likely to quite a few plus no more rerolls.


Not sure about what wise orator was. You sure you aren't refering to the 2 prayer chapter command upgrade?

Servant of the Chapter: This unit cannot be upgraded to be a Master of Sanctity (see Chapter Command in Codex: Space Marines).

That in the datasheet itself.

Iron hands can upgrade one yes. Can they take 3? 3 of those + unkillable leviathan and maybe 4th dread being IH was a thing. But again could be reduced enough with introduction of core keyword and general power scale up that it wouldn't be issue. But that's one unit I would be bit leery. Untargetable vehicles can get tricky. Especially ones that shoot decently enough. When can be brought in multiples...Well one Bjorn is tough bugger to deal. 3 would be nightmare.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
^^^This. I'd really like someone to explain to me how my R&H (now a fully Legends army) is OP. Same for the fw argument: yeah, my Sicaran is sooo much better than a (cheaper and tougher) PBC.

Well, most legends stuff is broken.

Just brokenly bad and dysfunctional.......

However the chaplain dread and other charachters for certain factions like the warbika boss with PK relic can still be very much considered overly competitive due to frozen in time points and options....

IOW. No most legends stuff is so bad that if you like to win and your opponent brings them you will have a predictably easier time.
Some of the stuff , especially charachters, might be problematic depending upon keywords and charachter relic/ warlord trait access but that is fringe.

 buddha wrote:
Since this won't be for tournaments you and your opponent can agree to play with anything.

But ask yourself, are you bringing the model because it is powerful or broken, or is because it's fluffy or the model is cool? If it's the latter, I don't know why anyone would object.

I have.
And my answer is that I'm simply old, stubborn, & not done playing with the models I spent $ on and time building/painting.

I guess, since I don't buy models I don't like (regardless of how great thier rules) you could say I'm playing ______ because I find it cool.... So if that's the wording you need to make it work on your end? Go with that.

Me? I dont care what your reasoning is for bringing Legends. So you needn't justify anything to me.

Tournament wise?
I dont play tournaments so not a concern what they allow. BUT.... In the unlikely event I am in one? Then I'd have read & agreed to whatever limits they imposed.

Only here to +1 what others have said. Doing it for fun, awesome. Doing it to be a dink, Thumbs down.

People who play legends are either legends themselves (in a good way) or wanna be legends (in a bad way).