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Made in gb
Been Around the Block



UK

Before the Tau codex comes out in January, I would like to know what you guys think is needed to make Tau Sniper Drones Ok, or at the very least relevant.

I am finding that they are not very good when compared to other factions.
They currently are 20 pts per drone have a squad of 3-9, M8, WS5+, BS5+, S3, T4, W1, A1, LD6 and SV4+.
The weapon has good range at 48” and is also rapid fire which is good (not that drones get a penalty for heavy weapons and moving) as rapid fire allows them to fire twice at 24” in this case. They have S5 AP0 and D1 which is shockingly basic. They also give a mortal wound on a 6 +normal damage.

Compare this against other units like the necron deathmarks
They currently are 18 pts per model (cheaper) have a squad of 5-10 (more), M5, WS3+, BS2+, S4, T5, W1, A1, LD10 and SV3+.
The weapon has standard range at 36” heavy1. They have S5 AP-2 and D1. They also give a mortal wound on a 6 +normal damage.

I feel like this comparison highlights the disparity in the units (a full squad of 10 deathmarks = 180 pts and a full squad of 9 sniper drones = 180 points (+30 points if marksman is taken to 210 pts)). The drones a re less likely to hit and less likely to wound.

It seems most if not all of the other sniper units have a BS2+ and some form of AP and a range of roughly 36”.

Other units also have special abilities and starts to boost them, so the following should be considered that other armies can also get additional boosts to the units in similar ways.
For the Tau I think that there is a strat (deadly aim?) that can increase the AP to AP-1 for one round on one unit for 2CP (-2AP at half range).

While the tau can include a marksman, taking up an elite spot and 30 pts to add one to hit rolls if the marksman also has line of sight (effectively BS 4+), the marker light range to re-roll ones is 36” or less and farsight enclave ability, Aggressive Footing, is 12” or less to auto get a marker light, meaning that the drones at over 24” will struggle to hit and then wound anything and only seem to get half decent near 12” (2 shots of S5 hitting on 4+ and re rolling 1s, assuming farsight and marksman).

The strength of the weapon is fairly standard, the movement is good and its rapid fire is good (and I don’t really care about the drone S or T as that is the same as other drones) and the unit size is OK.

I feel like the lack of any AP on the weapon (unless you spend a lot of CP) and the terrible BS of 5+ and high points cost seems to kill off this unit from lists.

I like the model and I like the idea of a separate unit to boost them and the idea behind them.
I am thinking that the new Tau codex will have to make the weapon S5 AP-1 D1, the drone BS to 4+ (with the additional +1 with marksman, effectively BS 3+).

I would also get rid of the strat to increase AP and either (one of the below);
Keeping the AP0 and chang the rapid fire 1 to rapid fire 2 (2 shots at 48” and 4 at 24”), mortal wounds should have more paly wiht this.
Or reduce moment a bit and add a move shoot move for sniper drones when there is a marksman (like the space marine eliminators), as this would fit the Tau lore of movement and firepower.
Or lower the points cost of the units to 15 or less.

What do you all think would that be too OP?
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just make them rail rifles again. I'm still salty they nerfed them to pulse weapons.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Possibly a too-complicated answer:

Snipers in general are a bit weird in 40k. Most of them are functionally stationary rifle squads rather than feeling like properly killy assassin types. Vindicaires, Illic NIghtspear, and the pre-nerf GSC snipers felt about right for how a dedicated sniper tasked with killing enemy leadership should behave, but most snipers (scouts, eldar rangers, ratlings, etc.) have their ninjutsu spread across an entire squad of dudes who are collectively pretty non-threatening to characters.

What I'm getting at is that there's an argument to be made for snipers in general being fewer in number but more powerful (picture eldar rangers taken in 3 man squads like eliminators that can reliably kill a librarian).

Now the weird thing is that sniper drones/marksmen seem like they're intended to be something of an exception to this. Rather than an inidividual sniper drone being a threat, you functionally have a single assassin (the marksman) that can manipulate a whole squad of sniper rifles at once. So all I'd really change is to let the marksman let sniper drones targeting a single targeting a single unit in his LoS count as BS2+. The interesting dynamic being that a single marksman can make all the sniper drones in your army really cost-effective for their price, but killing the drone controller drops them down to BS5+ thus making them less cost effective than their counterparts in other armies.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block



UK

Yes I have found it odd that most snipers are heavy weapons infantry so if they move they get a minus 1 to hits (instead of having a specific sniper weapon class), not such an issue when they hit on 2+.
The only reason I would take snipers would be for special rules and abilities, for example if it was just stat line then I would take Heavy Intercessor over the Eliminator.
The Eliminator have some nice weapon buffs / special rules and they also have the cammo cloak and move shoot move options (with las fusil and Instigator bolt carbine).

The Tau are drones not infantry so they wouldn't care about weapon type and moving. but there are not many tau heavy weapons for infantry (ironically i think it would be better if marker lights were not heavy and maybe had 2 shots).
The rail rifle would be nice to have as the sniper drone weapon (although it is slightly shorter range than most, everything else has better stats).
But it would be hard for them to hit anything again due to bad BS, so I guess the boost to marksman would be good also (like the BS+2).
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

BS4+ and Ap-1 as standard would really help. In addition the Marksman shouldn't take up an FoC slot if you have a unit of Sniper Drones.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Sniper units were pretty terrible throughout 8e, and 9e has generally tried to give them a much-needed glow-up (sudden proliferation of the "Bodyguard" ability aside...).

Universally, or at least where it's worked, they've done so by making the sniper more likely to hit, and making its gun a worthwhile weapon in its own right, instead of relying entirely on the random mortal wounds to do damage. Deathmarks are now S5, AP-2, with BS2+ and a 36" range. Eliminators are BS2+, S5, AP-2, D2, with BS2+ and a 36" range, and additional shot-options, and a free post-shoot Normal Move thanks to their Sergeant. Transuranic arquebus can now move-and-shoot at a penalty, and is S7, AP-2, Dd3, at a 60" range, on a unit with 30" Heavy 2 guns. Raiders are Assault 2 at BS3+ on a fast-moving, tough body with a decent melee statline.

The most conspicuously bad sniper weapon in 9e is the hexrifle, which is still S6, AP-2, D2 with a 36" range – but it's a single Heavy 1 gun on a BS3+ assault unit that will have no other long-range weapons and no way to avoid Heavy penalties. It doesn't fit the unit's role and approach.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

It is rather funny that the GW website still says Sniper Drones are armed with Railrifles when their rules say otherwise. Returning them to Rail Rifles and linking an improved BS (change BS to 3+ instead of a +1 to Hit) and ability to ignore Look, Out Sir to a nearby Marksmen would be a good improvement to the unit.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

RevlidRas wrote:
Transuranic arquebus can now move-and-shoot at a penalty, and is S7, AP-2, Dd3, at a 60" range, on a unit with 30" Heavy 2 guns.

Yeah, but in exchange it lost its Armourbane(roll 2D6 and add the results) and got watered down into basically "just" being a sniper rifle over time.
And don't forget that while Rangers are the ones that get the most use out of them, nothing is stopping them from being on Vanguard...which is partly how we're now in the delightful mess of 1:10 for each of the three weapon options, invalidating the "3 of any type for 10".


Regarding Sniper Drones:
Rail Rifles are questionable, at least right now. They're not outfitted with them, going off the design aesthetic(rail weapons have the 'spindle arms' leading into a box while pulse is fully enclosed). There was scuttlebutt that the designers initially had wanted a "sniper pulse rifle" but got shot down and told to use the existing rail rifle as the basis...then later on we got the Longshot Pulse Rifle.

The simple fix is to give Sniper Drones a modified version of the Tarantula Sentry Gun rules tying them to Markerlights. If a unit has a Markerlight Counter on it, the drones will take a shot at it if in range. Their less than stellar ballistic skill is always going to be an issue but the point of them isn't necessarily to be super-precise but rather to be area denial en masse. Maybe work something like a movement penalty or charge modifier if a unit is hit by them, even if they save the wounds?
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Kanluwen wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
Transuranic arquebus can now move-and-shoot at a penalty, and is S7, AP-2, Dd3, at a 60" range, on a unit with 30" Heavy 2 guns.

Yeah, but in exchange it lost its Armourbane(roll 2D6 and add the results) and got watered down into basically "just" being a sniper rifle over time.
And don't forget that while Rangers are the ones that get the most use out of them, nothing is stopping them from being on Vanguard...which is partly how we're now in the delightful mess of 1:10 for each of the three weapon options, invalidating the "3 of any type for 10".
I'm explaining why Arquebuses didn't see play in 8e and do see play in 9e, which is the topic at hand. Is the old 7e version particularly relevant?

The weapon option split has nothing to do with spreading weapon options between Vanguard and Rangers, and everything to do with datasheets in boxes – Games Workshop can't (or feels they can't) provide rules in the box that don't represent what's actually in the box. This is the reason that Plague Marines, Wyches, Primaris Sword Brethren, etc, have such convoluted equipment options, instead of using the older "pick a gun from the Special Gun List" template.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

RevlidRas wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
Transuranic arquebus can now move-and-shoot at a penalty, and is S7, AP-2, Dd3, at a 60" range, on a unit with 30" Heavy 2 guns.

Yeah, but in exchange it lost its Armourbane(roll 2D6 and add the results) and got watered down into basically "just" being a sniper rifle over time.
And don't forget that while Rangers are the ones that get the most use out of them, nothing is stopping them from being on Vanguard...which is partly how we're now in the delightful mess of 1:10 for each of the three weapon options, invalidating the "3 of any type for 10".
I'm explaining why Arquebuses didn't see play in 8e and do see play in 9e, which is the topic at hand. Is the old 7e version particularly relevant?

But that's not why Arquebi "didn't see play in 8e". It was because there wasn't an overwhelming reason to take Rangers over Vanguard, given that you were loading them up with Plasma Calivers in either case...assuming you were taking Skitarii over Kataphron or Electropriest spam anyways.

If you want to pretend that there weren't better options than Skitarii, go for it! But the "move or fire" bit isn't really all that relevant, while Armourbane and its weird niche of being an AP3 Sniper weapon did give it a strange spot to occupy that never really got to shine. Rail Rifles have continually been in a similar position of "there's a niche but it never really gets expanded upon or rules made to accompany it".

The return of Doctrina Imperatives to Skitarii, by the by, is the real change that actually matters to the overall discussion on that front.

The weapon option split has nothing to do with spreading weapon options between Vanguard and Rangers, and everything to do with datasheets in boxes – Games Workshop can't (or feels they can't) provide rules in the box that don't represent what's actually in the box. This is the reason that Plague Marines, Wyches, Primaris Sword Brethren, etc, have such convoluted equipment options, instead of using the older "pick a gun from the Special Gun List" template.

It has everything to do with mitigating the options, period, which is what I literally said with my statement of "invalidating the "3 of any type for 10"."

Nobody CARED about a triple arquebi 10 model Ranger Squad. They cared about the cheap, spammy Vanguards rocking up with Calivers. Same thing is probably going to be hitting Scions whenever Guard get a new book. Pathfinders will likely see a similar treatment too.

With all of that said, Sniper Drones are basically a lost cause unless they're getting a plastic kit...which by all accounts they aren't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/07 19:24:50


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Kanluwen wrote:
It has everything to do with mitigating the options, period, which is what I literally said with my statement of "invalidating the "3 of any type for 10"."
I'm aware you made that statement. It was incorrect, "period".

Feel free to keep going off about plasma calivers and plastic boxes in an otherwise very straightforward thread about how to make a specific gun good, though.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



UK

Well with the latest information the Tau rifles are now S5 AP-1 and D1 and they have added 6" range to everything so far.

So it looks like the suggested first part fo the changes have matched the very least of what we expected:
"the new Tau codex will have to make the weapon S5 AP-1 D1"

If the 6" range was added to the sniper drones that would put them at a huge 54" range (48+6 ... wow a bit far reaching). Im not sure that they would do that and Im not sure that i would want that.
Perhaps the markerlights will also get a range increase?

Im still hopeful that they will make the sniper drone more accurate than the rest of the drones with BS4+ (or make the marksman +2)
With the change to AP-1 (at the least) then I think that they may not lower the cost of the drones but still would be good if they added the move shoot move option (which would be cool when they are not heavy weapons and not infantry, so no penalty to shoot).
Maybe the marksman will have a move and shoot with no penalty with the markerlight

Anyone else think the drones would get a +6" range or anything new to the drones or marksman improvements?
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

We still don't know what, if any, changes we'll see to Markerlights. I think repeating my point from a while ago, we need a way to free up the FOC. The Elite section is already pretty crowded; it'll take some significant changes to the Drones to justify the Marksmen over say, XV8s or Hazards.

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Just throwing this out there, but they did say that the Kill Team frame would be included with Pathfinders going forward and that rules for them would be in the new codex.


I would not be shocked to see the "Drone Controller" model in there able to bolster Sniper Drones.

Also, worth noting that the new KT has Marker Drones with "High-Intensity Markerlights" that ping two counters onto a target.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block



UK

That is a good point as a marksman would be a lot better if they had some special dorne controler abiltiy (like +1 BS for all visable drones, not just sniper drones) or obital scan would be cool instead of the markerlight (assuming it had good range)
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Okay, thinking more about it and after seeing the pulse rifle update. This is what I'd do:

- Increase Longshot Pulse Rifle to AP-1.
- Can swap their Longshot Pulse Rifle to a Rail Rifle for 10 points.
- Give the MV71 Sniper Drone BS4+. Make it a more sophisticated AI than a simple gun drone. Then if you have a Firesight Marksman you can hit on 3+.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



UK

Well im glad that the codex has changed to fit the first part of the wants "new Tau codex will have to make the weapon S5 AP-1 D1"
I still agree with the "the drone BS to 4+ (with the additional +1 with marksman, effectively BS 3+)"
As all was originally stated.

I dont think that the add 10 points for a rail rifle option is good as the drones are already expensive at 20 points. (for reference necron death marrks are 18 points, more likley to hit and wound and can take an extra unit for the points, eliminators are 25 points).
It would make the sniper drone one of the most expensive standard sniper units and one of the least effective, even if you spend another 30 points on the marksman.
The rail rifle would need a big upgrade, or a special sniper drone rail rifle for it to be worth it, as now it has not been updated yet.
This may be suitable if the drone cost less points (like 15 points for drone and +10 for rail) and the rail rifle got an upgrade, like range (but would be nice on drones as drones dont get a penalty to move and shoot heavy weapons).

A general reduction on the dron points would be needed to around 15 or less unless something else was added to the drones or marksman to make it worth it.
A move shoot move for sniper drones when there is a marksman could be good, as it makes the marksman worth it more and I would be happier to pay 20 points for snioper drones and another 30 for the marksman for that.
Or general improvments to the marksman, like some new drone controller ability sort of previewed in the pathfinder set.

I still think rapid fire 2 would be nice, but maybe a bit OP (2 shots at 48” and 4 at 24” with S5 AP-1 D1 and the mortal wounds on D6).
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I don't think the Rail Rifle in itself needs a change, but I can't see them just adding it as an option.

I expect Drones to drop in points in general, but Rapid Fire 2 may be a bit much if you're going to be doing MWs as well. Just making them BS4+ basic would go a fair way to helping them.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




bedivere wrote:
I dont think that the add 10 points for a rail rifle option is good as the drones are already expensive at 20 points. (for reference necron death marrks are 18 points, more likley to hit and wound and can take an extra unit for the points, eliminators are 25 points).
It would make the sniper drone one of the most expensive standard sniper units and one of the least effective, even if you spend another 30 points on the marksman.
The rail rifle would need a big upgrade, or a special sniper drone rail rifle for it to be worth it, as now it has not been updated yet.
This may be suitable if the drone cost less points (like 15 points for drone and +10 for rail) and the rail rifle got an upgrade, like range (but would be nice on drones as drones dont get a penalty to move and shoot heavy weapons).


Could be 5 points for a rail rifle.

The Rail Rifle is still a great weapon, 30 inch (possibly 36 in the new codex), RF1, S6, AP-4, DD3 damage, and still has exploding 6's with mortals. It's far more damaging than their regular sniper rifles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 23:11:12


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block



UK

So with the last few days of Tau releases of information I think there are a few changes that we may be able to predict.

The changes we have seen are:
• Pulse carbine get +6” range (Range 24” Assault 2 S5 AP0 D1)
• Pulse rifle get +6” range and AP-1 (Range 36” Rapid Fire 1 S5 AP-1 D1)
• Darkstrider gets a named weapon (Range 24” Assault 2 S5 AP-2 D2)
◦ Structural Analyser gets Tau sept Core (instead of infantry), now Darkstrider can select 1 tau sept core unit within 6” to given them +1 on wound rolls to one enemy target (when Darkstrider has line of sight of there enemy target) … no split firing then.
◦ (I feel this change to core is important to the upcoming releases)
• The Mont’ka and Kauyon have changed from once per battle to a few rounds per battle and instead of 6” from sept commander its all units on the field, but can only select 1 of the 2.
• Mont’ka can be active from rounds 1-3 and all units who have moved or advanced count as being stationary, also there is a bonus to AP when shooting at targets within range (decreasing with the turns)
• Kauyon can be active from rounds 3-5 and all units can fall back and shoot (subtracting 1 from hit rolls), also there is a bonus get additional hits when shooting at targets within 12” range (when they have not fallen back or are in engagement range, The attack roll has to hit and scores an additional attack with a D6 value that decreases with the turns).

The Darkstrider change from infantry to core keywords would suggest to me that infantry and maybe drones or (inclusive or exclusive “or”) battlesuits may also get the core keyword.
I also suspect that other commanders and characters like Ethereal, Cadre Fireblade and some drones would change some abilities to core keyword, to affect more units.

I think that if the core keyword were to include battlesuits or drones, then this were to affect a lot more units that would suddenly get a lot more play. Drones would get a lot more appeal (especially if they were the sniper drones who have long range and could attack units that are visible to darkstrider but far out of range). Battle suits would get a similar boost and make the XV25 (stealth suits), XV8 (the crisis suits and crisis bodygaurds) and XV88 (Broadside battlesuit) all more dangerousWith the changes to Mont’ka i think that they may be less likely to Manta Strike reinforcements in though (so you couldnt drop them in next to the vangaurd units).

So I am hoping that drones and sniper drones get the core keyword ... but am not holding my breath as I suspect GW will stop before going that far.
Would be great if the sniper drones could get a boost from both Darkstrider and Marksman for +1 to hit and wound rolls
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

I wouldn't assume much from the Darkstrider change. One of the interactions they're likely trying to remove is that he could affect Stealth Suits, since they had the "Infantry" and "Battlesuit" keywords.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block



UK

If that is the case then I would EXPECT (in caps because it must happen in this case!) the Stealth Suits to be getting a boost, in the range of the burst and fusion cannon (ie +6") and a boost in the burst cannon AP -1.

I'm kind of expecting that anyway as the only reason I would want the Stealth Suits now is for the abilities like infiltrators so that they can get up the board with Darkstrider and the vanguard ability units.

As of now, ignoring the abilities, with the points cost i would rather take 8-9 Fire Warrior with pulse rifle. You get double the shots at the same distance (pluse shots at longer distance) and all have AP-1 meaning that its more likely that something will get though.

3 Stealth Suit total values = 78pts, M8, WS5, BS4, S4, T4, W6, A 7
@18” assault 8 - S5 AP0 D1
@18” assault 1 - S8 AP-4 DD6
or
@18” assault 12 - S5 AP0 D1

9 Fire Warrior total values = 81pts, M6, WS5, BS4, S3, T3, W9, A10
@18” rapid fire 18 - S5 AP-1 D1

I think that the breacher team has also been confirmed that the pulse blasters are also getting a ‘similar boost’ (so im guessing AP, range or a combination).
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



UK

Well I am surprised that the New codex reveal has given the burst cannon 2 extra shots, instead of AP-1. but is better than nothing.
(Range 18” Assault 6 S5 AP0 D1)
I guess the range boost everyone wanted is not as important now that they have given a move shoot move stratagem to Jet pack (all battle suits that can take the burst cannon weapon) strike and fade 1/2 CP, allowing for a move shoot move upto 6”.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



UK

Have paused a video of a tau 9th codex review.

So from the new codex it looks like the sniper drone now is a default drone class with:
M10 WS5+ BS5+ S3 T4 W1 A1 Ld6 Sv4+
with a weapon that is:
Range 48" Rapid fire 1 S5 AP-2 D1

So its gained 2" movment and AP-2
Its lost its abilities ... all of them, for the weapon and the drone
This includes the look out sire rule and the MW on a 6+
So the drones have been nerfed.

But hte marksman has been buffed with M and Ld:
M6" WS5+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A2 Ld8 Sv4+
pistol is the same 12" S5 D1
Also has a markerlight ... just 1

he has drone uplink. In command pahse select 1 sniper drone unit within 6" and until your next command phase:
sniper drones have BS3+.
Sniper dornes ignore lookout sir
Sniper drones get a MW + normal damage on a wound roll of 6

The marksman also gets marksman stealthfeild when it remains stationary. It cannot be targeted by a unit unless it is the closest unit or within 12".

I feel that this is a big nerf overall as the marksman (with the 6" move) is going to have to try to keep up with the drones (with the 10" move) to give them same benefits that they already had.

That also means that if it moves then you cannot use markerlight action (as he is not a pathfinder keyword).

Its not clear on the squad size of the sniper drones now (think I may have missed that in the codex review)
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





bedivere wrote:

I feel that this is a big nerf overall as the marksman (with the 6" move) is going to have to try to keep up with the drones (with the 10" move) to give them same benefits that they already had.

That also means that if it moves then you cannot use markerlight action (as he is not a pathfinder keyword).

Its not clear on the squad size of the sniper drones now (think I may have missed that in the codex review)


Not sure why the marksman would need to "keep up" with the drones. It's a mid-to-long ranged unit that can either stay far enough away to be out of range of most of the enemy's guns or else move 10" to get into rapid fire range on a turn that it wants to double its firepower. The marksman's ability gets used in the command phase, so you can buff the drones and then either hold still to use your markerlight or jog him into position for the following turn.

"Losing" the mortal wounds on the base weapon is kind of a non-loss given that you're clearly meant to be using the marksman pretty much every turn. So functionally, the changes seem to be:
* The drones do damage more reliably thanks to the improved AP.
* The marksman might lowkey be an amazing objective camper even if he isn't buffing sniper drones.
* Your drones might occassionally lose some of their punch if you choose to move them out of range of your marksman or if your opponent dedicates resources towards killing said marksman.

Overall, that doesn't sound too bad. Or am I missing something?



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block



UK

The marksman is move 6" and the drone are move 10".
The marksman has to be within 6" of the sniper drones - drone uplink benefits (whcih were mostly on the drones before). The marksman has to remain stationary to use the markerlight action.

For the drones to actually get any benefit they have to be within 6" of marksman (ie change from BS5+ to BS3+, ignore lookout sire and get additonal MW on a wound of 6).

The marksman may be choosing often between moving with drones or markerlight action.

Before the drones had most abilities + stealth making them hard to hit and the the marksman just had to have line of sight of the targte units to boost BS.

In the previos codex the marksman was good at camping objectives as it could just sit on objective and get line of sight or laydown markerlights while the drones did there thing.

Now if it moves to the objective (assuming you dont start on the objective) or follows drones, it looses markerlight. If it remains stationary and the drones would likely have to stay with it to get the buffs, although the range of 48" is still good on the drones.

Just would have perffered the marksman to get pathfinder keyword (allowing movement and markerlight action) or a special markerlight that is longer range or counts as 2 markerlights.

I think this unit is much more of a kauyon unit now, as sitting on an objective as a strong group is probably the best thing that these can do.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Honestly, most of that sounds like a feature rather than a bug. Those mechanics encourage you to have your sniper (the marksman) settle into a good spot and keep his squad of sniper rifles nearby. Having him sprinting around the table while his drones sniper drones fly around 360 no scoping the enemy would, in my opinion, do a worse job of making them "feel" like a sniper unit. Seems like a fluffy mechanic paired with a mild offense buff.

In your headcanon, do you think of sniper drones as typically shooting while moving at speed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/03 08:46:00



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



UK

I didn't say it was a feature or a bug (word that do not apply to outlined rules at all, rather the use or expected use of things).

I am outlining that the sniper drones had problems in 8th and cost way too much for what they did and required taking up 1 elite and 1 heavy support slots as well, that they don’t work well as a sniper units and the tau didn’t have many options for sniping units that can ignore lookout sir.

I'm still not clear on the points cost of these sniper drones or unit size at the moment, but I don’t think that they have been reduced in cost. I also don’t know the unit size of the drones now.

From the codex review that I have seen the marksman is elite unit size 1 and either 20 or 70 points (the video is a little fuzzy on the page). It was 30 points previously.

I saw the sniper drones listed in the drones section, but its not listed in the marksman, tactical drones, heavy support pages or the points costs at the back (page 133 and 134) ? So they are missing this part in the codex!?

Meanwhile other armies get much better sniper units that actually work.

Now they have removed all of the drones abilities and then added most (not all) them onto the marksman unit as long as the drones are stuck next to the marksman (so a reduction in functionality for the units there, but the drones do get better BS from it).

Then they have also changed the rules so that the marksman only has a 12” pistol to shoot and cannot move if you want to use the markerlight action (again maybe would work better if they just have marksman the pathfinder keyword). So now you can potentially lay down a markerlight and shoot your wimpy pistol (if that was a thing that you wanted).

Im just trying to highlight that you could previously use the drones to move around the board and potentially out flank targets, getting a buff to shooting if they had line of sight with the marksman (who could be safe out of range on on a back objective). But they were not great sniper units compared to almost all other armies that had snipers.

Now the drones have to be next to the marksman (who can hide around a corner, but may have to be in range, affecting things that don’t need line of sight).
All of the other Tau buffs are good and can compensate easily for the reduction in usability of these models.

The problem is that there seems to be even less reason to take these two models now and I think I would only use them in a kauyon build because I could wait for the enemy to come to me for the first 2 turns.

Why would I take a marksman or sniper drones now instead of another unit
If the points of the marksman includes a few drones then maybe worth it?
(unless the sniper drones are free with the marksman and take as many as you like as there is no points or unit size provided? ( I must have missed it somewhere)
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



UK

Just found it in smalll print. The marksman (unit size 1) is equipped with the markerlight, pistol and 3 sniper drones.
Does not seem to have a number of added drones but that means it only uses one elite slot now. (in 8th it was 3-9 drones in a heavy slot by themselves).

Even though the drones are included they seem to be treated as a different squad, which is nice.

Also its 70 pts (the old one was 30 pts +20 pts per drone or 90 pts for 3 drones and marksman).

Overall its a reduction in points -20 (-5 points on each model) and a reduction in slots used, so I am now actually liking this.
Drone:
M10 WS5+ BS5+ S3 T4 W1 A1 Ld6 Sv4+
(BS3+ when <6" of marksman)
3 shots at 48" S5 AP-2 D1
6 shots at 24" S5 Ap-2 D1

Marksman:
M6" WS5+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A2 Ld8 Sv4+
Pistol 12" S5 D1
Markerlight

With this in mind, it is a good unit to take to sit on objectives and a lot better value than it was.
   
 
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