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Hi there. Wondering if someone could clarify the rule for me.

If Ragnar is charged (when not his turn), does his Warlord Trait ability mean that he would fight first against that unit that charged him?

The rules state that the person who's turn its NOT, goes first.

This would suggest that if Ragnar is charged when its not his turn, he would be eligible to swing first. Then the player who's turn it is would then pick his charging units to fight and so forth.

I keep reading on forums that units that charge go first, with the persons who's turn it is going first, but i've never actually read this in the rules anywhere. I have only ever read that the player who's turn ITS NOT, goes first

Advice appreciated!

Thanks

Units that charge fight first rules are on Page 21 of the 40k PDF rules. A person who's turn it is gets to select a unit that charged to fight first.

Ragnar has the "Warrior Born" warlord trait so he also has a fight first ability. This lets him go before any Fight normally units.

"Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights first’ units to fight with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn is taking place." (Designers Commentary linked below).

So starting with the player whose turn is taking place they will pick a unit to fight, then their opponent would select an eligible unit to fight next.

E.G. If you were playing a game with Ragnar, and your opponent the enemy had 2 units that made a charge move, The opponent would pick a unit that made a charge move to fight, then after those attacks were done (if he is still alive) you would pick Ragnar and make his attacks. Then the enemy would pick the second unit that made a charge move to fight (if it is still alive).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

In your scenario Ragnar has Fight first, a unit that charges has Fight first. If both players have units that Fight first you alternate starting with the player whose turn it is. Then non Fight first units Fight starting with the player whose turn its not.

So imagine two different units charge that turn.

The player whose turn it is picks one and fights first then the player who controls Ragnar fights then the second chargeing unit fights

If there were no chargers or other fight first units ragnar would Fight first

I appreciate the responses and that’s what many forums say also. However the rules clearly say that combat starts with your opponent. Charging units are “fight first” and units with fight first obviously fall In the same category. Therefore surely your opponent, in this case Ragnar, would go first here? I cannot for the life of me see anywhere on the rules where it says that the player who’s turn it is goes first with his “fight first” category units (ie the charging units)

Ragnars WLT is a fight first rule, and a unit which charges also has a fight first rule. If two or more units have a fight first rule the player whose turn it is selects the first unit to fight with.

1. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights first’ units to fight
with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn is
taking place.
2. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights normally’ units to
fight with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn
is not taking place.
3. Players alternate selecting eligible ‘fights last’ units to fight
with, one at a time, starting with the player whose turn is
taking place.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

Yes, all of this is true.

Note that 'fight first' is quite a bad warlordtrait. Orks, GSC and SW have it. It is rarly taking since fight first is so easy to get (just charge.)

Fight first gets more interesting if you play around with fight last abilaties. Or if you have more units with fight first. Or it can mess up your opponents attacks if multiple fights go on and you want to use the Counter Offensive stratagem.

Note that all of these cases might come up with SW. The fight first warlordtrait comes with the fight first saga that gives an aura of fight first.

The confusion here comes from bad structuring of rules in the rulebook.

The Fight Phase section of the rulebook says the player whos turn it is not goes first.

Its only in the Rare Rules section that Always Strike First is addressed and this says that when doing the units that Always Strike First (including chargers) the player whos current turn it is goes first.

This incredibly important piece of information should be adressed in the main rules, not in the Rare Rules section.

 Ordana wrote:
The confusion here comes from bad structuring of rules in the rulebook.

The Fight Phase section of the rulebook says the player whos turn it is not goes first.

Its only in the Rare Rules section that Always Strike First is addressed and this says that when doing the units that Always Strike First (including chargers) the player whos current turn it is goes first.

This incredibly important piece of information should be adressed in the main rules, not in the Rare Rules section.

As annoying as you may find it, this rare rule is in the Rare Rules section because it's a rare rule. That significantly cuts down on clutter in the core rules since Fight First and Fight Last are only gained via special rules.

I dont know why its a rare rule, but almost every faction has a fight first rule.

 alextroy wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The confusion here comes from bad structuring of rules in the rulebook.

The Fight Phase section of the rulebook says the player whos turn it is not goes first.

Its only in the Rare Rules section that Always Strike First is addressed and this says that when doing the units that Always Strike First (including chargers) the player whos current turn it is goes first.

This incredibly important piece of information should be adressed in the main rules, not in the Rare Rules section.

As annoying as you may find it, this rare rule is in the Rare Rules section because it's a rare rule. That significantly cuts down on clutter in the core rules since Fight First and Fight Last are only gained via special rules.

The problem is that while the other mentions in the rare rules section provide clarification for ambiguous rules the 'Always fight first' section overwrites the base rules by moving priority from the defender to the attacker for part of the Fight phase. It doesn't clarify, it alters rules.

 Ordana wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The confusion here comes from bad structuring of rules in the rulebook.

The Fight Phase section of the rulebook says the player whos turn it is not goes first.

Its only in the Rare Rules section that Always Strike First is addressed and this says that when doing the units that Always Strike First (including chargers) the player whos current turn it is goes first.

This incredibly important piece of information should be adressed in the main rules, not in the Rare Rules section.

As annoying as you may find it, this rare rule is in the Rare Rules section because it's a rare rule. That significantly cuts down on clutter in the core rules since Fight First and Fight Last are only gained via special rules.

The problem is that while the other mentions in the rare rules section provide clarification for ambiguous rules the 'Always fight first' section overwrites the base rules by moving priority from the defender to the attacker for part of the Fight phase. It doesn't clarify, it alters rules.

I don’t really see it as altering the rules, but clarifying badly written rules. In the core rules, shortly after we are told to alternate picking units starting with the player whose turn it isn’t, we are told that chargers fight first:

CHARGING UNITS FIGHT FIRST
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

The rare rules only clarifies how this interacts with the rare instances where a unit has an “always fights first” rule.

Separate but related question:

If I use "Counter-Offensive" in, say, a Slaanesh Daemons army after an enemy unit that charged made its attacks, do I get to go with 2 units before the enemy?

One by permission of Counter-Offensive, than the other by permission of ASF?

.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Separate but related question:

If I use "Counter-Offensive" in, say, a Slaanesh Daemons army after an enemy unit that charged made its attacks, do I get to go with 2 units before the enemy?

One by permission of Counter-Offensive, than the other by permission of ASF?

No because once you use your counter offensive unit, your opponent gets to select a unit.

Counter offensive doesnt give you 2 slots, it just lets you jump a unit up to next. Once that unit has fought, its now your opponents turn to use a fights first unit.

Oh, even if your units also have Fights First?

So that just means counter offensive does nothing

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh, even if your units also have Fights First?

So that just means counter offensive does nothing

Not at all, it means that counter offensive lets you interrupt the normal flow if your opponent has 2 charging units and you do not have anyone with a fights first ability.

That is what counter offensive does.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh, even if your units also have Fights First?

So that just means counter offensive does nothing

Not at all, it means that counter offensive lets you interrupt the normal flow if your opponent has 2 charging units and you do not have anyone with a fights first ability.

That is what counter offensive does.

SO,

In my example (a Slaanesh Daemons army), it does nothing. Correct?

I think the senario you provided is confusing.

If there are a whole bunch of fight first on both sides counter offensive just lets you jump the line with a unit that does not have fight first.

If your opponent has one fight first (charge) and you have 2 fight first. They get to activate first with one of their fight first. And then it is your fight first, followed by your second fight first.

I did have a senario vs my ork opponent.

It was a lot of things in combat, but the important parts where my oppoent charged 2 units of squigh boys into my 10 man terinators. One ork warboss into my dreadnought. I heroic interweened with my smashcaptain with armour of russ.

Armour of russ has fight last, witch pushes his warboss down to normal fight.

Fight first: 2 squigh boys.
Regular speed: Dreadnought, smashcaptain, terminators, ork warboss.

Both my smashcaptain and warboss has a fight if you died before you attacked stratagem. He was low on CP, his squighboys could not kill the terminators in one turn of fighting (perhaps not even 2.) In this senario we where very unsure who should use counter offensive when. It was a fun game.

Edit: I think I talked my opponent out of using the fight first warlordtrait at it is very bad. It the above senario it would not have helped. He already did have fight first.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh, even if your units also have Fights First?

So that just means counter offensive does nothing

Not at all, it means that counter offensive lets you interrupt the normal flow if your opponent has 2 charging units and you do not have anyone with a fights first ability.

That is what counter offensive does.

SO,

In my example (a Slaanesh Daemons army), it does nothing. Correct?

Yes if all your combat eligible all your units have Fight First there is no reason to use Counter-Offensive since it does not allow you to do anything you can’t already do.

 alextroy wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh, even if your units also have Fights First?

So that just means counter offensive does nothing

Not at all, it means that counter offensive lets you interrupt the normal flow if your opponent has 2 charging units and you do not have anyone with a fights first ability.

That is what counter offensive does.

SO,

In my example (a Slaanesh Daemons army), it does nothing. Correct?

Yes if all your combat eligible all your units have Fight First there is no reason to use Counter-Offensive since it does not allow you to do anything you can’t already do.

I thought it might let me attack with a second unit after the first charger.

It doesn't, because as already told, you're alternating units. Counter offensive doesn't stop that alternating effect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It doesn't, because as already told, you're alternating units. Counter offensive doesn't stop that alternating effect.

Right, I understand. I don't really understand why (since I thought the whole point of counter-offensive was to interrupt the natural order of things) but no worries, I accept internet wisdom on this one.

"COUNTER-OFFENSIVE
2CP
Core Stratagem
Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next."

If you have just fought you can not use it. There is a timing restriction on it. You are in fact disrupting the natural ordre of things.

And, if you have fought normal rules kick in menaing your opponents turn to choose. Following the normal rules. (With fight first, fight last etc.)

It is also worth noting that if ragnar finishesh his saga (or of you use the 'I qualefied for a saga stratagem) you can give an aura of fight first. When there are multiple units with it it gets more interesting.

Counter-Offensive does disrupt the order of combat by allowing you to pick a unit that normally would not be eligible to be selected. It does not allow you to select two units to fight.

Can I not use it when it says (i.e. after th enemy unit fights), resolve it as instructed, and then resume the normal order (i.e. go to one of my units)?

Why that doesn't work is what I don't understand

Because you're told, as normal, to alternate units
You
Them
You
Them
And so on.

Just because you've used counter offensive doesn't alter that, after one of your units fights, it's one of theirs turn.

This is all within the same clas ie ASF, NORMAL, ASL.

So normally in the "asf" phase where you have NO asf, if they have 3 units charging and thus gaining ASF, they would fight those three units before you got to activate the next unit. Counter offensive can insert after unit1,unit2 or unit3 (pointless probably after unit 3....) just fine, allowing it to go unit1, you, unit2, unit3 fir example

If you have an entire army of ASF, and they charge you with three units into three of your units, and no other combats are possible, it would go
Enemy1
You1
Enemy2
You2
Enemy3
You3

Even if you use counter offensive, you can't actually change that - as you pick the order yiur three units fight anyway.

Yeah you jump a unit of yours up the order. It doesn’t say you get two gos in a row, though, Unit, so after your Counter Offensive it’s back to your opponent to pick next.

Got it.

So counter offensive effectively skips the choosing of a unit I would *normally* make in favor of the counter-offensive one! Then I don't do one as I normally would and the choice is back to my opponent.

Thanks!

Indeed, you dont choose another unit as you're still in the i go, you go part - counter offensive doesn't alter that.

Yeah, sorry. I thought counter offensive de facto changed the normal order, but I see now that it only does so when you don't have ASF.