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Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Following on from other topics, I figured I might suggest the following change to my local group for casual play (we have several new players feeling overwhelmed).

Command Phase abilities
1. Select one unit and perform it's Command Phase ability.
2. For 1CP you may perform a second action.
3. If you do neither of above, you gain 1CP.

Strategems.

Main rulebook strats stay the same.
Otherwise, select 5 s trategems from your codex for use in the battle. These are one time use only. Pregame list building strats do count toward these limits (so if you add a second warlord via a strat, you will now only bring 4).

Thoughts?
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






honestly anything to bring down strategems is good for me. having to select just a few and having knowledge of what you and the opponent can do would be a nice way to play in my opinion.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 bullyboy wrote:
Following on from other topics, I figured I might suggest the following change to my local group for casual play (we have several new players feeling overwhelmed).

Command Phase abilities
1. Select one unit and perform it's Command Phase ability.
2. For 1CP you may perform a second action.
3. If you do neither of above, you gain 1CP.

Strategems.

Main rulebook strats stay the same.
Otherwise, select 5 s trategems from your codex for use in the battle. These are one time use only. Pregame list building strats do count toward these limits (so if you add a second warlord via a strat, you will now only bring 4).

Thoughts?


The 5 strats should be randomly generated.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 bullyboy wrote:
Following on from other topics, I figured I might suggest the following change to my local group for casual play (we have several new players feeling overwhelmed).

Command Phase abilities
1. Select one unit and perform it's Command Phase ability.
2. For 1CP you may perform a second action.
3. If you do neither of above, you gain 1CP.

Strategems.

Main rulebook strats stay the same.
Otherwise, select 5 s trategems from your codex for use in the battle. These are one time use only. Pregame list building strats do count toward these limits (so if you add a second warlord via a strat, you will now only bring 4).

Thoughts?


I don't like the command phase thing for now, i like some of the other suggested more.

Picking (most have said 10) stratagems pre-game on your army roster has been very common suggestion. As well as 1 per phase. Both combined would be insane game changing, for now 1 or the other would be fine.

I am more in favor of Pick 10 and only use those 10 bc you can see the 10 they are able to use, no forgetful gotcha's.

PS: If we did a Command phase redo, I would want a full redo.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/30 21:31:31


   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I get that you're trying to streamline or simplify or whatever, but I feel this is to restrictive.

Has potential for matched play people who like balance more than flavour. Play testing would allow you to tweak it.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Silly question, but I also have been playing with a bunch of newbies, and we just...dont do any of it.

We just play without strats, doctrines, traits, relics...we recently added in subfactions, as I think of the layers of army-wide rules, they tend to be the most fun. Now we have subfactions+the main army wide rules like res protocols and stuff.

Works fine. We also do a much simplified cover system, where it's just 'if the line of an attack crosses cover, the unit gets +1 to save, -1 to hit, or can't be attacked depending on whether it's a Building or an Obstacle'

If the line crosses a Building, can't be attacked. if the line goes to a unit standing in a building, +1 save. If the line crosses an Obstacle, -1 to hit. Ignore any terrain pieces your unit is also touching.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 the_scotsman wrote:
Silly question, but I also have been playing with a bunch of newbies, and we just...dont do any of it.

We just play without strats, doctrines, traits, relics...we recently added in subfactions, as I think of the layers of army-wide rules, they tend to be the most fun. Now we have subfactions+the main army wide rules like res protocols and stuff.

Works fine. We also do a much simplified cover system, where it's just 'if the line of an attack crosses cover, the unit gets +1 to save, -1 to hit, or can't be attacked depending on whether it's a Building or an Obstacle'

If the line crosses a Building, can't be attacked. if the line goes to a unit standing in a building, +1 save. If the line crosses an Obstacle, -1 to hit. Ignore any terrain pieces your unit is also touching.
^Honestly this seems like the best approach. I like the simplified cover system too. Approved!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





With our newest player, I did play smaller games with no secondaries, and no strats. However, people want to do cool things with their army, so instead of stopping all of it I figured just curtailing it a little and make it less overwhelming, while still getting an idea on how it works.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





It's making me not want to play the game. I don't mind complicated rules like that in specialist games such as AT or Necromunda where you have 5-10 models on the table. They don't belong in 40k. I've been playing since 3rd and this is the worst the rules bloat has ever been. You need more books and get surprised by more special rules and obscure stratagems than any other time in the history of the game.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






Bring back USRs and universal game mechanics that can be utilized and found in many different codexes instead of making everything unique (bespoke as they call it?). More universal gameplay depth makes it so you don't need so many codex specific special rules and stat inflation when you have more options to spread the power and functionality of a unit into areas other than just shooting/stabbing/soaking wounds

With more universally accessible gameplay mechanics you can design units to interact with those mechanics and interact against units using those same universal abilities in other codexes. With more tools that everyone can access, you can then cut out a lot of the codex specific bloat which requires so many different rules sources and codex specific rules memorization.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Thread belongs in suggested rules. But please post if you get any experience with the stratagem houserule.

Nerfing Command phase abilities is really unfair, Necrons are forced to take one as a WL, that means Ghost Arks and Crypteks cost CP. Space Marines can take Captain + Lieutenant and get 1 CP each turn.

AdMech are over the top because each model can have multiple abilities due to holy orders, just ban those and Phaeron/Chapter Master buffs.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly anything to bring down strategems is good for me. having to select just a few and having knowledge of what you and the opponent can do would be a nice way to play in my opinion.


I'd bet almost every player could drop all but 10 stratagems of their choice and it would have next to no impact on the game.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




 Jidmah wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly anything to bring down strategems is good for me. having to select just a few and having knowledge of what you and the opponent can do would be a nice way to play in my opinion.


I'd bet almost every player could drop all but 10 stratagems of their choice and it would have next to no impact on the game.


My chaos space marine list uses only like 5 different strats and that is including pregame strats... I feel dirty for using a double tap strat but that's what this edition demands of me?

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

macluvin wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly anything to bring down strategems is good for me. having to select just a few and having knowledge of what you and the opponent can do would be a nice way to play in my opinion.


I'd bet almost every player could drop all but 10 stratagems of their choice and it would have next to no impact on the game.


My chaos space marine list uses only like 5 different strats and that is including pregame strats... I feel dirty for using a double tap strat but that's what this edition demands of me?


Pretty much this.

I've only used 3 or 4 for my EC/FH and even less for Salamanders. Hell I rarely remember which stupid doctrine is in effect. Then I look across the table and they're popping strats like it's a fething game of MTG & think WTF GW, WTF?

Why can't they just be part of the damn datasheet again.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






@bullyboy... I think you're on to something with Command Point and Stratagem use.

I've been saying for years now that codex stratagems should be one use only, but Core Rules stratagems because they're more generic can be used multiple times.

Using your idea as a framework, I envision a system where CP's are gained exactly how they are now, but you then spend them pre-battle to buy / gain access to codex stratagems - triggered during the battle as normal, but one-use only. CP not spent to buy codex stratagems can then be used for Core Rules stratagems that can be used all throughout the game (i.e. there's no change to how Core Rules stratagems are used - can be used multiple times).

Oh yea, I like this, a lot.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





i think a lot of it could be tweaked, especially since I do not know all armies (like the Necron example) but I do feel people should not have cake and eat it too.
For example, if you have a Chapter Master and a Chaplain...for that turn, you will need to decide what is more important...the reroll all hits on 1 unit, or a chaplain litany. Unless you want both and expend a CP (or 2 litanies in case of MoS).
At least your opponent will not have to remember so much as to what unit has which buffs....it will typically just be one.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 bullyboy wrote:
i think a lot of it could be tweaked, especially since I do not know all armies (like the Necron example) but I do feel people should not have cake and eat it too.
For example, if you have a Chapter Master and a Chaplain...for that turn, you will need to decide what is more important...the reroll all hits on 1 unit, or a chaplain litany. Unless you want both and expend a CP (or 2 litanies in case of MoS).
At least your opponent will not have to remember so much as to what unit has which buffs....it will typically just be one.

Why is remembering a Captain aura easier than remembering a Ghost Ark or Resurrection Orb bringing a model back? There is nothing to remember once the model has been brought back, the Captain aura is an ongoing effect that has to be remembered in the Shooting phase and both Fight phases. Banning Chapter Master, Purity Officers, Holy Orders, etc. has little impact on balance and is mostly fair because those upgrades, cost points, those points you don't have to spend if you ban them. I cannot take a dedicated transport without spending pts on its ability to revive Warriors, I cannot use my Combat Doctrines without paying points for a unit with a Command Phase ability.
   
Made in pt
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Great thread.
Scotsman has it.


   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 vict0988 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
i think a lot of it could be tweaked, especially since I do not know all armies (like the Necron example) but I do feel people should not have cake and eat it too.
For example, if you have a Chapter Master and a Chaplain...for that turn, you will need to decide what is more important...the reroll all hits on 1 unit, or a chaplain litany. Unless you want both and expend a CP (or 2 litanies in case of MoS).
At least your opponent will not have to remember so much as to what unit has which buffs....it will typically just be one.

Why is remembering a Captain aura easier than remembering a Ghost Ark or Resurrection Orb bringing a model back? There is nothing to remember once the model has been brought back, the Captain aura is an ongoing effect that has to be remembered in the Shooting phase and both Fight phases. Banning Chapter Master, Purity Officers, Holy Orders, etc. has little impact on balance and is mostly fair because those upgrades, cost points, those points you don't have to spend if you ban them. I cannot take a dedicated transport without spending pts on its ability to revive Warriors, I cannot use my Combat Doctrines without paying points for a unit with a Command Phase ability.


A captain aura is part of his data sheet and does not trigger in Command Phase. I am specifically talking about actions that are performed in the Command Phase...these need to be limited, they are time consuming and frankly just too much for opponent to remember. Watching an Admech command phase is like nails on a chalkboard.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





I feel like a lot of these things are army specific. With orks you do basically nothing in your command phase, and might use like one or two strats.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I am honestly surprised they didn't go with the AoS route where the "Stratagem" is unique to the model and it has to be your warlord ( There are exceptions to that part). They had 3 generics in the core book and usually each faction had 1 or two more that you could take but that is it. They expanded it a tiny bit by letting unit commanders use them but it is.still better than 40K.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 bullyboy wrote:
A captain aura is part of his data sheet and does not trigger in Command Phase. I am specifically talking about actions that are performed in the Command Phase...these need to be limited, they are time consuming and frankly just too much for opponent to remember. Watching an Admech command phase is like nails on a chalkboard.

A Captain making 3 units re-roll to hit slows the game down more than a Lord choosing a unit in the Command phase to re-roll to hit. Why is remembering the aura different? I've already explained how to simplify AdMech by banning the extra Command phase things they can do. But things like using a Techmarine does not complicate or slow the game as much as re-rolls for 3 units, Ghost Arks use their healing in the Command phase, there is nothing complicated about it, nothing to remember.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 bullyboy wrote:
A captain aura is part of his data sheet and does not trigger in Command Phase. I am specifically talking about actions that are performed in the Command Phase...these need to be limited, they are time consuming and frankly just too much for opponent to remember. Watching an Admech command phase is like nails on a chalkboard.


If adMech is the problem, change adMech, not the command phase.

The command phase is just the psychic phase for stuff that can't be denied.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Jidmah wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
A captain aura is part of his data sheet and does not trigger in Command Phase. I am specifically talking about actions that are performed in the Command Phase...these need to be limited, they are time consuming and frankly just too much for opponent to remember. Watching an Admech command phase is like nails on a chalkboard.


If adMech is the problem, change adMech, not the command phase.

The command phase is just the psychic phase for stuff that can't be denied.


It's another phase where too much has been added that is not related to the datasheets (just chose admech as example, not only issue).
I'm guessing some people have not had too many new players in their group. Try talking to a few. It's overwhelming for them to see all these additional things you have to remember.
Auras are already on, you don't have to nominate specific units and remember when to do them...they're just there. Command Phases should be simple (if orks don't do anything, great, free CP for you).

For example, my DA army (is pretty simple). Sammael needs to pick a unit to give full rerolls to. Talon master has to pick a visible enemy unit and then during my shooting any unit within 6" of him targeting the unit selected gets to shoot without target getting cover. Chaplain has to roll for litanies, 2 if it's a MoS. Some strats activate in the Command Phase. I also get a CP.
Now, if I only could do one of them, my opponent doesn't have to think too much and I move swiftly on. Simple, plus it forces me to make decisions....what action is most important?
Heck, just read the gak that is now Custodes rules.....forget it. Bloat for the bloat God.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 03:09:38


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
Silly question, but I also have been playing with a bunch of newbies, and we just...dont do any of it.

We just play without strats, doctrines, traits, relics...we recently added in subfactions, as I think of the layers of army-wide rules, they tend to be the most fun. Now we have subfactions+the main army wide rules like res protocols and stuff.

That is pretty weird take. Strats, sure, but traits/relics? Wot? So you ruin the best, most fun part of making a list, creating your own character?

I know I have looked at all SM supplements to see what wargear/traits they have to offer and what characters they can build, and I can't imagine anyone who ever played RPGs not doing the same. And why stop there, anyway? What's the difference between grabbing relic and say a power fist? Should we ban all the wargear options to not 'confuse the newbies'? Or hell, all HQ choices, chaplain and captain sound so similar, why confuse poor new players, better delete that choice, eh? That sounds like harming their enjoyment of the game, if they can build their own chapter (admittedly second most fun of list building after HQs), then why not characters?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I don't ever consider relics for "flavor". My choices are purely utilitarian. Unlike Wargear they're a finite resource, but free, so I just choose the "best" one/s possible.

If I want to build a Character I'll play 2nd edition and load my dudes up with Wargear cards.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 bullyboy wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
A captain aura is part of his data sheet and does not trigger in Command Phase. I am specifically talking about actions that are performed in the Command Phase...these need to be limited, they are time consuming and frankly just too much for opponent to remember. Watching an Admech command phase is like nails on a chalkboard.


If adMech is the problem, change adMech, not the command phase.

The command phase is just the psychic phase for stuff that can't be denied.


It's another phase where too much has been added that is not related to the datasheets (just chose admech as example, not only issue).
I'm guessing some people have not had too many new players in their group. Try talking to a few. It's overwhelming for them to see all these additional things you have to remember.
Auras are already on, you don't have to nominate specific units and remember when to do them...they're just there. Command Phases should be simple (if orks don't do anything, great, free CP for you).

For example, my DA army (is pretty simple). Sammael needs to pick a unit to give full rerolls to. Talon master has to pick a visible enemy unit and then during my shooting any unit within 6" of him targeting the unit selected gets to shoot without target getting cover. Chaplain has to roll for litanies, 2 if it's a MoS. Some strats activate in the Command Phase. I also get a CP.
Now, if I only could do one of them, my opponent doesn't have to think too much and I move swiftly on. Simple, plus it forces me to make decisions....what action is most important?
Heck, just read the gak that is now Custodes rules.....forget it. Bloat for the bloat God.

So, considering that you think having four abilities from 3 expensive HQs trigger is a problem, shouldn't we also limit the shooting phase to only allow three units to shoot? Shooting is much more complicated and time consuming than resolving four abilities. And while we're at it, how about moving only three units per turn? That will force people to make decisions.

Sorry, but that is not what bloat is. That's just stuff happening at a time it should be happening instead of at random points in time over the course of a turn like it did for the past five editions or so. If you feel like that is too much, playing games at 1k or even 500 is an option as well.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Insectum7 wrote:I don't ever consider relics for "flavor". My choices are purely utilitarian. Unlike Wargear they're a finite resource, but free, so I just choose the "best" one/s possible.

If I want to build a Character I'll play 2nd edition and load my dudes up with Wargear cards.

Good times, good times
   
Made in us
Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver





Albany, NY

 the_scotsman wrote:
Silly question, but I also have been playing with a bunch of newbies, and we just...dont do any of it.

We just play without strats, doctrines, traits, relics...we recently added in subfactions, as I think of the layers of army-wide rules, they tend to be the most fun. Now we have subfactions+the main army wide rules like res protocols and stuff.

Works fine. We also do a much simplified cover system, where it's just 'if the line of an attack crosses cover, the unit gets +1 to save, -1 to hit, or can't be attacked depending on whether it's a Building or an Obstacle'

If the line crosses a Building, can't be attacked. if the line goes to a unit standing in a building, +1 save. If the line crosses an Obstacle, -1 to hit. Ignore any terrain pieces your unit is also touching.


If I tried to get back into playing 40k actively, I think this is how I'd want to start. Just ditch 3/4s of the layered on garbage and focus on the units and making the terrain function.

   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Personally, I never thought the command phase is all that bad except against Admec, but that is more of a codex problem. So far, most armies only have a few abilities to use in command phase, and I never find it overwhelming. Strats on the other hand, oh boy.

I think the simplest answer is to just make all strats one use only. I do like the select before hand somewhat, but I think that will make the most used strats even more prominent and the strats that are rarely used will never be used.

Also relics should cost points.
   
 
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