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Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

I am trying to sort out the different primaris models. All the captains and leitenants confuses me.

But this character on games workshop is in Gravis Armour according to the description. But that datasheet only come with the dark imperium load out. Am I crazy?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Captain-With-Master-crafted-Bolt-Rifle-2021

Not only is he clad in Mark X Gravis armour for additional protection, but he’s equipped with artificer weaponry in the form of a master-crafted heavy bolt rifle and master-crafted power sword, so is handy in a fight at every range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/05 00:36:59


   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

It’s a different datasheet, in the Marine Codex.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

Not really a Tactics question.

As it says on the tin, that is the Captain with Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Bloat for the bloat god!

All he needed was one line of the other datasheet. “This model can replace his boltstom gauntlet for a Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle”

But nope. Totally separate datasheet.

Page 127 in the codex.

   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

But the description on the GW page says Gravis Armour. Are those not the T5 onion knights with 3 wounds? Are all primaris Gravis Armour?

   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 Niiai wrote:
But the description on the GW page says Gravis Armour. Are those not the T5 onion knights with 3 wounds? Are all primaris Gravis Armour?


Unless I’m forgetting one, the generic SM stuff in Gravis armor is:

The 2 captains
Heavy Intercessors
Aggressors
Inceptors
Eradicators

All of which are T5 with an extra wound. Which is 3 for the basic marines, and 7 for the captains


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The normal Mk X tacticus armor of primaris has no bonuses, gives a 3+ armor save.
Gravis armor is chunkier, has the cowl over the head, cables on the back of the legs, is also 3+, but gives +1T/W
Phobos armor is missing a few armor plates, has a light-weight shouderpad only on one arm. 3+ save and usually accompanied by special deployment rules, but not always and they differ between units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/05 14:34:02


   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

 Nevelon wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
But the description on the GW page says Gravis Armour. Are those not the T5 onion knights with 3 wounds? Are all primaris Gravis Armour?


Unless I’m forgetting one, the generic SM stuff in Gravis armor is:

The 2 captains
Heavy Intercessors
Aggressors
Inceptors
Eradicators

All of which are T5 with an extra wound. Which is 3 for the basic marines, and 7 for the captains


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The normal Mk X tacticus armor of primaris has no bonuses, gives a 3+ armor save.
Gravis armor is chunkier, has the cowl over the head, cables on the back of the legs, is also 3+, but gives +1T/W
Phobos armor is missing a few armor plates, has a light-weight shouderpad only on one arm. 3+ save and usually accompanied by special deployment rules, but not always and they differ between units.


Then why does this model have this description?

'Not only is he clad in Mark X Gravis armour for additional protection, but he’s equipped with artificer weaponry in the form of a master-crafted heavy bolt rifle and master-crafted power sword, so is handy in a fight at every range.'

That Gravis Armour is not reflected in his Stat line.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Do you have the Space Marine Codex? Because he’s T5 and W7. That’s a Gravis stat line.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 JNAProductions wrote:
Do you have the Space Marine Codex? Because he’s T5 and W7. That’s a Gravis stat line.


This.

I checked my codex, the official app, and in battlescribe. All have the T/W where it should be.

Normal primaris marine captains are T4 6W.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/05 20:42:05


   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






 Nevelon wrote:
Bloat for the bloat god!

All he needed was one line of the other datasheet. “This model can replace his boltstom gauntlet for a Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle”

But nope. Totally separate datasheet.

Page 127 in the codex.


There is actually one more difference between the two. The fisty one doesn't have frag or krak grenades, for some reason. My best guess is that Gravis is suppose to be the primaris' equivalent to Terminator armor and none of the Terminator firstborn have grenades so they did the same until the new gravis troops and the accompanied HQ.

It would be the easiest thing in the world to give the old gravis captain grenades to make a super simple datasheet but GW is going to GW.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 KingGarland wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Bloat for the bloat god!

All he needed was one line of the other datasheet. “This model can replace his boltstom gauntlet for a Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle”

But nope. Totally separate datasheet.

Page 127 in the codex.


There is actually one more difference between the two. The fisty one doesn't have frag or krak grenades, for some reason. My best guess is that Gravis is suppose to be the primaris' equivalent to Terminator armor and none of the Terminator firstborn have grenades so they did the same until the new gravis troops and the accompanied HQ.

It would be the easiest thing in the world to give the old gravis captain grenades to make a super simple datasheet but GW is going to GW.


Interesting.
None of the DV-era Gravis have grenades (old captain, inceptors, aggressors)
But all the Indominus era ones do (new captain, heavy intercessors, eradicators)

To be fair, due to the wargear on the old guys, pulling a pin is going to be rough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/05 21:34:39


   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Niiai wrote:
That Gravis Armour is not reflected in his Stat line.
It 100% is.

There are two Gravis Captain entries in the Marine Codex. As others have stated, this is stupid as they could have just had one with a weapon swap option, but GW gonna GW:

Spoiler:



Both T5. Both W7.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
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Solution: play a normal-ass faction instead of a weird bloated monstro-faction 5x the size a faction ought to be.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 the_scotsman wrote:
Solution: play a normal-ass faction instead of a weird bloated monstro-faction 5x the size a faction ought to be.


That's not a solution because whatever faction he picks, Niiai will continue to ask these types of questions....
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I have the SM codex but I'm always shocked when I see two different datasheets for the exact same guy, one with an enhanced bolter and one with a pistol/power fist.

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Blackie wrote:
I have the SM codex but I'm always shocked when I see two different datasheets for the exact same guy, one with an enhanced bolter and one with a pistol/power fist.
I'm more shocked that there is a unit in the game called "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle". That's the name of the unit.

People used to mock me when I brought up the concept of no model/no rule. I was a mad man and it wasn't at all what GW was doing. Nothing had changed!

Now we literally have a unit called "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle", almost as if GW was determined to vindicate me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 08:02:27


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I have the SM codex but I'm always shocked when I see two different datasheets for the exact same guy, one with an enhanced bolter and one with a pistol/power fist.
I'm more shocked that there is a unit in the game called "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle". That's the name of the unit.



Natural consequence of having two datasheets for the same dude. It's either that or Captain 1 (or A) and Captain 2 (or B).

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

But there shouldn't be two sheets in the first place. It'd be like having two sheets Captains in Terminator armour; one with all the options, and then another which is "Captain in Terminator Armour with Power Fist with Wrist-Mounted Grenade Launcher".

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But there shouldn't be two sheets in the first place. It'd be like having two sheets Captains in Terminator armour; one with all the options, and then another which is "Captain in Terminator Armour with Power Fist with Wrist-Mounted Grenade Launcher".


Remember, if a single unit has too many options, it confuses Jervis' kids.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
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Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







It’s unfortunate that this thread is about a captain. It’s a lost opportunity for “Who’s Lieutenant is it anyway?”

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Remember, if a single unit has too many options, it confuses Jervis' kids.
And to combat that, the mighty "Wargear Section" was created. This out-of-the-box idea allowed the Codex writers to group all the weapons, wargear and other equipment from the entire Codex into one central section so that nothing would ever be confusing.

Sorry, did I say all the weapons, wargear and other equipment? Sorry I meant most. Wait, no, some. Ok, perhaps a tiny bit, like in the Guard Codex 'Vehicle Armoury', which has 31 entries, of which only 8 are in the 'Vehicle Armoury' section, with the rest being scattered around the Codex, and some in a different book!

No joke, the 'Vehicle Armoury', the part of the book that is meant to make things simple by consolidating all the rules relating to vehicle weapons and equipment, contains 23 "see elsewhere" references. It should be parody, but it was real.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 08:45:02


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But there shouldn't be two sheets in the first place.


Of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Flinty wrote:
It’s unfortunate that this thread is about a captain. It’s a lost opportunity for “Who’s Lieutenant is it anyway?”


Captain bloats matter!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 08:46:36


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I have the SM codex but I'm always shocked when I see two different datasheets for the exact same guy, one with an enhanced bolter and one with a pistol/power fist.
I'm more shocked that there is a unit in the game called "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle". That's the name of the unit.

People used to mock me when I brought up the concept of no model/no rule. I was a mad man and it wasn't at all what GW was doing. Nothing had changed!

Now we literally have a unit called "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle", almost as if GW was determined to vindicate me.


Hey now, maybe "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle" is his official rank? Did you ever consider that?

You see, to show how elite SMs are, all their units are actually Captain rank or higher. Thus, you have to look to their weapons to see how high up the SM command structure they actually are:
Captain with Bolter (Private)
Captain with Bolt Rifle (Corporal)
Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle (Sergeant)
Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle (actual Captain)

See how simple this makes everything?

 blood reaper wrote:
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 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 vipoid wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I have the SM codex but I'm always shocked when I see two different datasheets for the exact same guy, one with an enhanced bolter and one with a pistol/power fist.
I'm more shocked that there is a unit in the game called "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle". That's the name of the unit.

People used to mock me when I brought up the concept of no model/no rule. I was a mad man and it wasn't at all what GW was doing. Nothing had changed!

Now we literally have a unit called "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle", almost as if GW was determined to vindicate me.


Hey now, maybe "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle" is his official rank? Did you ever consider that?

You see, to show how elite SMs are, all their units are actually Captain rank or higher. Thus, you have to look to their weapons to see how high up the SM command structure they actually are:
Captain with Bolter (Private)
Captain with Bolt Rifle (Corporal)
Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle (Sergeant)
Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle (actual Captain)

See how simple this makes everything?


I do make up ranks for my made up chapters with my deathwatch. Michael Jordan of the Chicago Bulls chapter, for example, is a dunkmaster-sergeant.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

 vipoid wrote:


Hey now, maybe "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle" is his official rank? Did you ever consider that?

You see, to show how elite SMs are, all their units are actually Captain rank or higher. Thus, you have to look to their weapons to see how high up the SM command structure they actually are:
Captain with Bolter (Private)
Captain with Bolt Rifle (Corporal)
Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle (Sergeant)
Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle (actual Captain)

See how simple this makes everything?


"Sergeant, this is Captain,
Captain,
Captain,
and Captain"

"Your rank isn't Captain?"
"...No, its Sergeant."
"Thats going to cause some confusion. Mind if we call you Captain to keep it clear?"

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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Made in ca
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The Frozen North

 Niiai wrote:
That Gravis Armour is not reflected in his Stat line.

His movement is 5". His Toughness is 5. His Wounds are 7. Unlike every other Primaris Captain - except the one in Gravis armour. You may also note he has the Mk X Gravis keyword.

What are you basing this on, exactly?

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:
I have the SM codex but I'm always shocked when I see two different datasheets for the exact same guy

Technically, having two sheets serves a balance function post rule of 3 thing. Yes, it doesn't apply to captains now (though limitation to 1 per army is new) but having two datasheets for say anti-infantry and anti-tank predator allows you to field 6 even with rule of 3 limit, thus not rendering old armoured spearhead SM armies illegal. Though, judging by posts of some dudes here, if GW did that the other way around and glued the sheets together they would be now raining crocodile tears about all the old style armies they totally have the evil GW doesn't allow them to field now

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And to combat that, the mighty "Wargear Section" was created. This out-of-the-box idea allowed the Codex writers to group all the weapons, wargear and other equipment from the entire Codex into one central section so that nothing would ever be confusing.

If only someone invented such a radical idea as having points and options on the sheet itself, allowing you to dynamically tailor points and options of unit (why should power fist cost the same in WS2+ A6 model as it does on WS4+ A1 one, again? or why should vanguard veteran first company sergeant have the same options as freshly promoted devastator mook?), avoiding annoying, constant page flipping bound to ancient inanity that is armoury section only kept around because some grognard GW writer hates usability and can't let go old, gak concepts go-- Oh wait
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

 MinMax wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
That Gravis Armour is not reflected in his Stat line.

His movement is 5". His Toughness is 5. His Wounds are 7. Unlike every other Primaris Captain - except the one in Gravis armour. You may also note he has the Mk X Gravis keyword.

What are you basing this on, exactly?


On the fact that the description at GWs website says he is wearing Gravis Armour. But the model that has that description every one says is the regular primaris captain, and not the Gravis Armour one.

It is all there in the original post. Press the link, read the description (I provided the description in text.)

My confusion came from me not finding the model in the codex. Clearly a datasheet is missing or they have a wrong description.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Nothing is missing, you're just not listening when people give you the correct information.

Heck, I think one of HBMC's posts even includes images to help.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Niiai wrote:
 MinMax wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
That Gravis Armour is not reflected in his Stat line.

His movement is 5". His Toughness is 5. His Wounds are 7. Unlike every other Primaris Captain - except the one in Gravis armour. You may also note he has the Mk X Gravis keyword.

What are you basing this on, exactly?


On the fact that the description at GWs website says he is wearing Gravis Armour. But the model that has that description every one says is the regular primaris captain, and not the Gravis Armour one.

It is all there in the original post. Press the link, read the description (I provided the description in text.)

My confusion came from me not finding the model in the codex. Clearly a datasheet is missing or they have a wrong description.


Now I'm confused. That model is literally the very one pictured on page 127. The datasheet is for a Captain who is wearing Gravis armour as shown by the M5, T5, W7 and the Mk X Gravis keyword. Yes, unlike the other Gravis Captain, his unit name doesn't include the fact he's wearing Gravis armour but his statline and keywords do. So what's the problem?
   
 
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