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I had him on 16 wounds. He had fallen for the bait and engaged a tasty wolfen dreadnought. The jaws of the wolf snapped shut! I charge a cyber wolf into him to eat overwatch. The critical redemtor dreadnoughts made a huge enough charge! Now I could fitt in Bjørn as well. The techmarine with Armour of russ engaged! No eskaping this death trap! With fight last you can not use counter offensive stratagem. A wulfen dreadnought circled from the other side.
When the smoke cleared the fether Stil had 3 wounds left!!! He took out the armour of russ and a redemptor dreadnought. Now I was in trouble! Some deathshrouds joined the fight and took out the last redemptor Dreadnought. The wulfen dreadnought gave him 2 more wounds. Mortarion fought and killed Bjorn who used fight on death! Luckely mortarion died to Bjørns last breath.
I was happy about the fight. Quite fun. But how on earth do you kill Mortarion? Are there any heuristics I can use for an ecspected outcome? Or just general strategies VS him?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/16 17:13:56
Sadly, he's not that tough really for a very costly and most importantly huge model that can be seen pretty clearly on many battlefields. You kill him by just shooting him a lot.
I've never faced his new incarnation, but I did work out that if I got every single fusion pistol in my army in range (21 fusion pistols) I'd still only do something ridiculous like 5 wounds. Last I remember he was pretty much the toughest thing in the game, has lethality upped that much that he just gets deleted now?
for Chaos Daemons, I've had limited success with Khorne force. you need to get 2x Bloodthirsters (2h axe version) to charge him in the same turn.
Step 1: Charge
Step 2: Roll good and knock Morty down to 2 or 3 HP Step 3: Curse as he interrupts with Morty and slays the 2nd Bloodthirster
Step 4: pay 3 CP for "fight again" strat and knock him out.
that's 500 points in two monsters to knock him out in one combat, if that fails, you can call the game, Khorne Daemons overall are not in a great spot.
Mortarion has some flavor of variation. This one denyed re-rolklng from his warlord aura. And a psykick power gave me - 1 to hit.
He is a though nut to crack. One alternative is to just kite him. But he moves 12". And with 7 attacks with S8 and that scythe he just nukes what ever he charges. Just having him charge what ever he wants every turn is no go for 4 turns. Also 2 psykick powers is a good source of damage.
Sisters have pretty good luck against him with Melta shots combined with using their miracle dice for high damage.
I play a swarm army, so I just ignore him, feeding him chaff every turn, and kill everything else instead.
I'd say that a high volume of Str:5 AP-1 shots would be best. For Space Marines, lots of Heavy Bolters/ Heavy Bolt Rifles? Tau surprisingly are pretty okay with brining him down with mass infantry fire. He just tears people up in CC, so I try to avoid that wherever possible, you'd have to ask someone else on the best way to punch him out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/16 20:14:38
I don't tailor my lists. Sometimes I have S5. Grav long fangs or intersceptor. But unless I can reasonable make a dent in him atemting just is not worth it.
Niiai wrote: I don't tailor my lists. Sometimes I have S5. Grav long fangs or intersceptor. But unless I can reasonable make a dent in him atemting just is not worth it.
Wolf Guard [7 PL, 140pts]: Jump Pack
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
Wolf Guard [7 PL, 140pts]: Jump Pack
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
+ Fast Attack +
Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]: Cyberwolf
Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]: Cyberwolf
+ Heavy Support +
Long Fangs [11 PL, 193pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword
. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol
Long Fangs [11 PL, 183pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword
. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol
++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Space Wolves) [59 PL, -3CP, 1,135pts] ++
+ Configuration +
**Chapter Selector**: Space Wolves
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
+ HQ +
Bjorn the Fell-handed [10 PL, 180pts]: Multi-melta
I won this fight on points. There where two units of deathsheoud Terminators left I could not threaten with the 17 marines I had left.. But that does not help anything when they are many points behind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/16 20:20:29
The list looks strong in general, but yeah I could really see this having a problem with Morty. A lot of your firepower can be negated by a few good invuls and a lot of it is melee at that.
I'd say all grav instead of melta for the long fangs would probably net some more consistant dmg. You're averaging 3ish wounds per volly of 5 gravs and while the meltas are the same aprox output with 3ish wounds inflicted, less shots make them more swingy, you might get luck and do double that, or nothing might land. Also you've got better range on the grav so easier to actually shoot him. With how heavy your dreads hit, do you find you really need those meltas for other threats? They also free up 50 points for more things. Hmm, what could be done with that to help? Maybe swap the Incursors for Hvy Intercessors with Hvy Bolt rifles? At str 5 AP -1 they'll average a wound or two per round of shooting, and you'd have enough points left for another Cyberwolf too. Unless you can think of something better with 50 points, I'm not a Space Wolf expert by any means.
The long fangs outflanked (space wolf stratagem) and came in taking on the damned blight tanks and the small robots with rockets and mukti melta. None of them shot at Mortarion. If the tanks lived they would just nuke down the long fangs. 2 damage mortars with long range and AP are marine killer. S8 for 2+ to wound.
Niiai wrote: I charge a cyber wolf into him to eat overwatch
...Out of curiosity, did your opponent actually use Fire Overwatch on Mortarion?
Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
Don't know. Did not do it then. I wanted all the odds in my favour. And the wolf did survive the entire game. With the right positioning he eats a smite.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/16 21:50:14
Niiai wrote: The long fangs outflanked (space wolf stratagem) and came in taking on the damned blight tanks and the small robots with rockets and mukti melta. None of them shot at Mortarion. If the tanks lived they would just nuke down the long fangs. 2 damage mortars with long range and AP are marine killer. S8 for 2+ to wound.
Maybe split them 50/50 on unit of full meltas to take on tanks and one for Morty? Makes taking casualties worse, but positioning better. eh, hard to say.
Best bight might be to not outflank, bait Morty forward and just hit him with everything you have and deal with the rest after? With your list, it's not like he's a threat you can ignore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/16 21:54:31
Right, I always forget that Longfangs don't have the extra bodies to absorb hits like Devastators. Yeah super risky with the ignore cover, you probably made the right call.
It's tough, Morty seems like a really good counter to what you're doing.
Twilight Pathways wrote: I've never faced his new incarnation, but I did work out that if I got every single fusion pistol in my army in range (21 fusion pistols) I'd still only do something ridiculous like 5 wounds. Last I remember he was pretty much the toughest thing in the game, has lethality upped that much that he just gets deleted now?
Before the dataslate? Yes.
Admech firepower had reached ridiculous levels and could indeed take him out at range.
Speedfreaks too could manage it.
After the dataslate the game's lethality took a nose dive and Mortarion is back to being something very very though.
Mortarion is pretty unkillable for those who are unable to spam mortal wounds or melta (and their equivalents) shots. Sometimes it's better to flat out ignore him and dedicate to the rest of the army. Try to feed it and slow it down with expendable units in that case.
With my SW no way I can kill it effectively, I'd need to dedicate my whole army to that purpose for 2-3 turns.
With Space Wolves it might be tricky. Mass poison fire from DE can do a number on him.
Here's the gist of it though:
At 3+/4++/5+++ it's all about quantity of dice. You need to force him to roll. And roll. And roll. Eventually the averages will kick in and he's going to start dropping. If you go at him with select, powerful weapons, you're too vulnerable to some streaky saves. You want:
1. S5+ so you're wounding on at least 5's.
2. 30-100 shots depending on your BS and strength profiles* (I'm just approximating to give you an idea).
3. No more than 1 AP.
4. 1 damage or 3+ damage, avoid 2 like the plague.
It's a little old but Goonhammer did a whole article on "Killing Moration":
Well that is the average. It averages a bit less than half his wounds but more than 1/3, so on average it needs 3 rounds of shooting. That's without him even getting -1 to be hit off - if he does that, it only just about kills him in 3 turns.
I think it could feasibly roll hot and kill him in 2 turns, but 1 is extremely unlikely.
Twilight Pathways wrote: I've never faced his new incarnation, but I did work out that if I got every single fusion pistol in my army in range (21 fusion pistols) I'd still only do something ridiculous like 5 wounds. Last I remember he was pretty much the toughest thing in the game, has lethality upped that much that he just gets deleted now?
Just checking the math... Fusion Pistols don't get +2 damage in half range, right?
21 shots
14 hits
7 wounds
7/2 failed saves
112/12 or 28/3 damage
56/9 past Ignore Wounds
I'm getting 6.22 damage on the big boy. Still... Bad, but better than you thought. If he's got -1 to-hit on him, it drops to...
21 shots
21/2 hits
21/4 wounds
21/8 failed saves
336/48 or 7 damage
14/3 past Ignore Wounds
4.67 damage if he's rocking that hit penalty. So that might've been what you were calcing?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
The key thing to do is work out what can kill him and in what time frame.
Also figure out what things really buff his survivability. Being inside his debuffing aura, cover, still having that CP re-roll for the Inv. save vs. high damage shots.
So engage at the right time/distance, prioritise plink damage first. Mortal wounds. Massed AP-1+ firepower.
Mortal wounds are the key. I once saw a drukhari army stripping half Mortarion's wounds just in the movement phase thanks to a void mine from a bomber and using Eviscerating Fly-By stratagem on a large unit of reavers. Then lances + poison took several other wounds and the big guy was finished off by charging reavers which had grav talons, another source of mortal wounds.
Without taking 8-10 wounds using sources of mortal wounds, or rolling insanely above the average, it's almost impossible to one shot Mortarion for most of the armies, if not flat out impossible.
Freebooterz speed freaks can do it with the combination of their massive enhanced firepower and multiple/cumulative sources of mortal wounds from charging vehicles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/19 07:50:18