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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Warning,- I'm going to name names in this article. I'm at once both distraught and furious! I have never had a varnishing disaster like this before in all my decades of experience.

Help! In order to preserve my dwindling supplies of the superb Winsor and Newton Professional Matt Varnish I ordered some Minibits Deluxe Matt Varnish from Pendraken Miniatures. Five cans in fact. I used this over my normal Humbrol Gloss coat and the results were very satin! A far cry from what I am used to which is a very flat matt I get with the Winsor and Newton Professional Matt Varnish.

I then tried to brush on some matt varnish and it just ran off the model like I was pouring water on!

I had one can of Colourforge Matt Varnish, which I was going to try out on some terrain, and applied it over the Minibits Deluxe Matt Varnish. What you see below is the result! Not only has there been extreme frosting but the varnish has actually cracked on the models!

I am absolutely distraught. As I have said, I have never had such a terrible result with any varnish in all of my painting days which amounts to over two decades- longer if I include my youth!

Normally, if I get a bit of frosting I would re gloss then repeat with the Winsor and Newton Professional Matt Varnish

If anyone has a solution to this please, please contact me and let me know.

Here's the mess:

























   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Hmm, I've not seen that before, but maybe I've seen similar.

What paints did you use? It perhaps looks like the cracking is worst on the highlights, maybe a different paint or simply the most recently painted part of the model (and thus least cured?).

When I used certain paints and coated them with Humbrol Clear, they reacted and caused crazing.

So maybe what you're seeing is either a reaction of the paint to the Humbrol Gloss, or a reaction between the Humbrol Gloss and the Minibits Deluxe Matt Varnish.

As for how to fix it, I dunno, sorry, when I had my issue I ended up lightly sanding the model until it was starting to reach the paint, recoating it with varnish, then sanding it again, that removed most but not all of the cracking for me and then another coat of matte varnish and you can still see it if you get super close to the model.

I found afterwards similar people had the same problem as me and the solution is to wait several weeks for the underlying paint and varnish to completely cure before hitting it with the top coat.... but instead I just stopped using that paint and varnish combo as who can be bothered waiting weeks before topcoating a model, lol.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 14:16:15


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Hmm, I've not seen that before, but maybe I've seen similar.

What paints did you use? It perhaps looks like the cracking is worst on the highlights, maybe a different paint or simply the most recently painted part of the model (and thus least cured?).

When I used certain paints and coated them with Humbrol Clear, they reacted and caused crazing.


That has never happened to me before. I normally us Humbrol Gloss then Winsor and Newton Professional Matt and I have never had a problem with it. I've been painting for nigh on 30 years and never had a problem like this before. Yes, the occasional frosting but that is easily dealt with but this is way beyond a frosting issue. The varnish actually cracked upon drying!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

So maybe what you're seeing is either a reaction of the paint to the Humbrol Gloss, or a reaction between the Humbrol Gloss and the Minibits Deluxe Matt Varnish.


No. It happened when I added the Colourforge Matt Varnish. Which I did as I have very little W&N left and needed to mitigate the high satin sheen of the so called Minibits Deluxe Matt Varnish (which is not matt at all in any shape or form)

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As for how to fix it, I dunno, sorry, when I had my issue I ended up lightly sanding the model until it was starting to reach the paint, recoating it with varnish, then sanding it again, that removed most but not all of the cracking for me and then another coat of matte varnish and you can still see it if you get super close to the model.

I found afterwards similar people had the same problem as me and the solution is to wait several weeks for the underlying paint and varnish to completely cure before hitting it with the top coat.... but instead I just stopped using that paint and varnish combo as who can be bothered waiting weeks before topcoating a model, lol.


I've been painting for nearly three decades and always wait a week between painting, glossing and matting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/11 15:08:43


   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Ok so first throw that crap out. Second get you this stuff.

https://www.amazon.com/Testors-Spray-Lacquer-Clear-Coat/dp/B009FF6DN4/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=testors+matte+varnish&qid=1641918305&sprefix=testors+matt%2Caps%2C148&sr=8-1
It will suck the shine outta chrome and you can put multiple layers.

Now, as to fix your problem, we can try a few things.

The first, get some lamiet medium from GW, and try brushing that on to see if that will help loosen and or dilute it down to smooth it out.

Another thing that might help, again gonna need to make a sacrifice model here, try applying via brush, watered down gloss varnish then matte it again with something not that other varnish.

Anothing thing you can try, but again this is gonna be risky, get like 90% alcohol, and just dampen your brush and dry to buff it out, but be careful because it can take the paint off.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Folkvang

Ouch... unfortunately there isn't a "good" fix to that. Best I know how to do is be very gentle with some 90% isopropyl alcohol and a makeup sponge. It removes paint so you basically try to remove that layer of varnish without also removing the paint.


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Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Texas

I agree with AllSeeingSkink about a possibility of the under paints not cured enough. Some varnishes also just have a bit more solvent and they will break down under coats more than others and you will get these cracks unless there has been a lot of time pass before the last coat.

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Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






You have two issues here.

1. The crackle lines are an adhesion issue. The varnish did not properly stick to the model in these locations. Possibly due to oils or uncured pigments on the surface. Basically something under the varnish caused it to lift up off the surface of the model. The only way to try and correct this issue is to dissolve the varnish and remove it with careful application of lacquer thinner.

2. The frost look is a varnish surface finish issue. Essentially there are hundreds, even thousands of tiny peaks and valleys that allow the light to scatter off the surface in all different directions giving it the frosty look. This primarily happens when the varnish partially dries mid-air before landing on the model or there is high humidity. This can be corrected by applying a gloss varnish to the area to fill in all of the tiny peaks and valleys to get a smooth surface finish. After which, you can try to reapply the matte varnish.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 17:51:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 MDSW wrote:
I agree with AllSeeingSkink about a possibility of the under paints not cured enough.


Acrylic may need up to 24 hours to cure fully, but I regularly varnish immediately after the paint dries and have never had a problem. It's more of an issue with oils where there is a curing reaction that continues long after the carrier has evaporated.

I've found cracking will occur when the application is too heavy and/or the surface underneath is too smooth, and frosting in particular often occurs if varnish is applied too heavily. It's very important to only mist on varnish when going over gloss (or an unexpectedly glossy/satin varnish coat), and when applying varnish by brush in particular it can very easily form a thick layer that will cause problems for subsequent varnish if applied too heavily. There are too many variables to point to anything specific, but I'd bet it was the Colourforge varnish not playing nice with the solid layer of varnish that had accumulated by the time the Minibits stuff was brushed on.

I second the recommendation to get Testor's spray varnish. It's pretty foolproof if applied in multiple thin coats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 17:56:28


   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 catbarf wrote:
Acrylic may need up to 24 hours to cure fully, but I regularly varnish immediately after the paint dries and have never had a problem.


That's a common misconception, acrylic mostly cures in a few hours, but it continues to cure (continues to harden and continues to outgas) for at least a couple of weeks, and often gradually continues in its final cure over several weeks. Try and strip a paint that's been on a model for a year versus a day, or stick a day old model in a sealed box for a few hours then open it up and you can tell it's still outgassing.

Most of the time it's not an issue and your topcoat can cure alongside the underlying paint, but if genuinely using paints that are incompatible then a day or even a week can be too short of a time.

I think the worst is when the topcoat interferes with the outgassing of the underlying paint, or it soaks into the underlying paint causing it to shrink, expand, harden suddenly, etc. It's certainly not a common effect, but one I have seen with certain paint combinations.

Atheling wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

So maybe what you're seeing is either a reaction of the paint to the Humbrol Gloss, or a reaction between the Humbrol Gloss and the Minibits Deluxe Matt Varnish.


No. It happened when I added the Colourforge Matt Varnish. Which I did as I have very little W&N left and needed to mitigate the high satin sheen of the so called Minibits Deluxe Matt Varnish (which is not matt at all in any shape or form)


Sorry, misunderstood, you can update my comment by appending the following...

"..., or a reaction between the Colourforge Matt Varnish and any of the above"

Basically I think it's *MAYBE* a reaction between mismatched paints that hadn't fully cured. That's why I asked what paint you used underneath, because it could still be a factor.

Sometimes when you get a problem like this maybe it's because the product sucks, or maybe the product is fine and it's just reacting with something else.


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As for how to fix it, I dunno, sorry, when I had my issue I ended up lightly sanding the model until it was starting to reach the paint, recoating it with varnish, then sanding it again, that removed most but not all of the cracking for me and then another coat of matte varnish and you can still see it if you get super close to the model.

I found afterwards similar people had the same problem as me and the solution is to wait several weeks for the underlying paint and varnish to completely cure before hitting it with the top coat.... but instead I just stopped using that paint and varnish combo as who can be bothered waiting weeks before topcoating a model, lol.


I've been painting for nearly three decades and always wait a week between painting, glossing and matting.


So you painted, waited a week, glossed, then waited another week?

FWIW, acrylic paint doesn't fully cure in a week. It *mostly* cures in a week, but for the paint to stop outgassing takes several weeks, so if you're using two incompatible paints then a week might not be long enough.

When I had a similar issue, I had waited 5 or 6 days between layers and it was still an issue, and from researching on scale model forums it seemed folk who waited a week still had the issue, and folk who waited a month didn't have the issue.

Sorry, I can't think of anything that would remedy your existing models short of stripping them or trying to remove the offending paint/varnish. Because there's actual cracking of the paint, overcoating it with another gloss probably isn't going to fix it.

You could try using a cotton tip moistened in a paint stripping solvent to remove some of the top coat, it'll look horrible at first but once most of it's removed you could then revarnish it and see if that fixes it. In the past I've used a cotton tip moistened with an airbrush cleaner to remove the top coat, basically rubbing the model until the cotton tip started to lift the underlying colour then stopped. At that point the model will look hideous but after waiting a few days for the paint to settle and another gloss coat it *might* look okay, no promises.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/12 03:16:15


 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard






Whoa! That sucks!
Almost as much as Leonardo da Vinci trying some new fast dry plaster that make his (Last Supper) fresco peal and flake.

The only way I can see that happening is when sort of water-based is layered over oil-based in a thick coat. I am sure you already know that.

Check the ingredients! We all make mistakes.

Other reason I am guessing perhaps some weird chemical reaction between the varnishes... again check ingredients.

For fixing this perhaps...Try what Freya
Made in us suggested. Otherwise:
In antique Oil painting restoration a layer of varnish is removed from antique paintings by slowly and meticulously chipping small bits of old varnish with a sewing needle. Perhaps some light heating is involved I forgot.
If the varnish is dry check if it flakes off easily, but the removal that way might be unreasonable.

If I was in your position. I would drown the whole model in matt spray varnish like 2-3 times until the flakes are not noticeable as much. And then work on new models.

 
   
 
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