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Hello Dakka,

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-showdown-showcase/

This articles talks about a Crusher Stampede Nids list which used a Tervigon and article writer mentionned that the tervigons ability to spawn 10 man units of gaunts is useful.

But I thought 9th edition rules for new units summoned/spawned must be paid for in points in the army list and count as reinforcements.

But crusher stampede doesnt allow your army list to include gaunts.

What am I missing?

I'm not sure about whether or not you lose the benefits of the Crusher Stampede by spawning gaunts, but you are in error about how creating units works. You are correct in that points (almost always) must be paid for creating units during the game, but these units do NOT need to be listed in your army list. Instead, any points you don't use for the size of the game are set aside as reinforcement points. Units created during the game are paid for from these points, but that happens during the game.

Why?

Well, generally speaking, summoning is classically done by Daemons, and there are lots of different Daemons you can summon. If the units of Daemons were actually interesting and different enough, you could choose to bring in a different summoned unit every game to answer whatever threat is presented. It could be like "hmmm, there's a horde-type enemy that a unit of Horrors would be perfect to fight against, so in this game I'll summon in some Horrors", whilst in another game it might be "I am in desperate need of something extremely tanky, even if it doesn't kill things very well, so I'll summon Plague Bearers".

Now, the rules for these units and how summoning works and everything coalesce into a reality where actually trying to make a "swiss army set" of units that you "might" summon in not especially viable, so you don't see it done. We might see that change in the next Daemon codex though!

Oh, so you can leave 50pts to 100pts available and your crusher stampede tervigon can spawn 1 or 2 units of 10 termagaunts then?

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Oh, so you can leave 50pts to 100pts available and your crusher stampede tervigon can spawn 1 or 2 units of 10 termagaunts then?

If each squad is 50pts, then yes. That said; check with your TO regarding whether or not that will break the Crusher Stampede requirements. For myself, my gut instinct is to allow it without breaking the Crusher Stampede, but I haven't done a proper rules analysis of it either.

Yes, or if you don't need gaunts, you could use it to employ the strat that adds sporemine units to your army, i forget what its called. Reinforcement points have a disadvatage of less units at the start of the game, balanced by the advantage of being able to create units as you need them.

As the gaunts are not listed on your army list, they do not break the requirements for fielding a crusher stampede.

If I were to do this I would set aside 180pts ( for either 3x10 gaunt spawned units, or 2x9 mine sporemine units depending on what i am facing.

Its a surprising tactic that will often catch your opponent off guard as its very rarely seen.

The downside is that spawned gaunts will not get Objective Secured. As that's an ability tyranid troops get for being in a tyranid detachment, and spawned units are not part of a detachment.

As far as I can tell, they do get the 5++ from Crusher Stampede though. As that is an ability granted to the whole army, rather than a detachment bonus.

The Tervigon rules tell you to add a unit to your army (not “army list”, army, so it’s not a list building-only restriction). The Crusher Stampede rules disallow your army from including anything under W3. So you can’t add a unit of Termagants to your army as it breaks this restriction. Tervigons in a Crusher Stampede simply have an ability they cannot use, so you’re likely better off picking something else.

Is this covered by the FAQ entry:
‘IF EVERY UNIT IN YOUR ARMY’ RULES?

The Crusher Stampede army of renown isn't an "if" statement but the FAQ entry does say:
The condition of ‘every unit in your army’ is checked once, after you have selected your army, which happens at the end of the ‘Muster Armies’ step of the mission sequences used in a mission pack, and such rules either apply for the duration of the battle or they don’t.

This does say that "your army" is considered during a particular set at the start of the game and then not again during it. So I'd think that the army of renown can spawn the Termagants, but I can see it's not an exact fit. In a similar vein I'd also say that the Terminus Est army of renown could summon in Daemons during the game. The condition of "your army" is checked once and then not checked again for the duration of the battle.

It’s not an “every unit in your army” check to get a special bonus rule though, which is what this FAQ covers. It’s a prohibition from your army containing small bugs and swarms.

Honestly, it’s a WD army list for a fun Big Bugs build. Do we have to try and break everything?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not an “every unit in your army” check to get a special bonus rule though, which is what this FAQ covers. It’s a prohibition from your army containing small bugs and swarms.

Crusher Stampede also has the following restriction:

"For each unit from your army that does not have the MONSTER keyword, your army must include at least one MONSTER unit."

By your logic, your army would be illegal as soon as you lost a single MONSTER if you had an exact 1:1 mix of MONSTERs and non-MONSTERs. No?

 JohnnyHell wrote:


Honestly, it’s a WD army list for a fun Big Bugs build. Do we have to try and break everything?

It's also the only way to play Tyranids in a GT right now so...yes

I don't really se them breaking anything with a 200 point useless tervigon with 50 points on topp for 10 gaunts. If they won with in the bravo I say.

 MinMax wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not an “every unit in your army” check to get a special bonus rule though, which is what this FAQ covers. It’s a prohibition from your army containing small bugs and swarms.

Crusher Stampede also has the following restriction:

"For each unit from your army that does not have the MONSTER keyword, your army must include at least one MONSTER unit."

By your logic, your army would be illegal as soon as you lost a single MONSTER if you had an exact 1:1 mix of MONSTERs and non-MONSTERs. No?

I dislike “by your logic”-framed posts as they’re needlessly antagonistic in tone. You can express the same thing in other ways.

Still, you’ve a point!

Yet the point of the Crusher Stampede list is still Big Bugs Only. It seems fairly self-evident that little bugs aren’t allowed and the wording supports that. It is poorly worded in that some restrictions should probably say “when mustering your army” or similar, though usually such restrictions only matter at list building. Here we seem to have a mix of list-building restrictions and fluffy restrictions. And I doubt the writers remembered the Tervigon or thought anyone would use a Small Bug buff machine in a Big Buff list.

So hey, do whatever you like. If you think this works more power to you. I think it’s not allowed. There’s almost zero utility in my mind to some Gaunts in a list where Big Stuff gets buffed. Do what you enjoy. They’ll end up FAQing it if people write to them.

I think any FAQ would allow them - the game is quite consistent in the check once at the start, hence things like 1:1 rules not being broken by something dying. I think its a neat and novel idea that honestly puts me in mind of the movies where they kill the monster only for the smaller ones to rip there way out of the corpse!

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think any FAQ would allow them - the game is quite consistent in the check once at the start, hence things like 1:1 rules not being broken by something dying. I think its a neat and novel idea that honestly puts me in mind of the movies where they kill the monster only for the smaller ones to rip there way out of the corpse!

Love this image!

Units spawned after the game begins do benefit from the army-wide 5+++. They gain absolutely nothing else though.

Your army doesnt loose the AOR benefits either just cause you magicked in some spore mines.



Does it make the tervigon useful for anything other than guarding one objective? Probably not.

Not sure they would get the 5++

They wouldn't have the right keywords to benefit.

If the benefits and restrictions only happen at mustering your army you would not gain the benefits.

If the benefits and restrictions happen when the unit is spawned you cannot spawn the unit as you are not allowed to include such an unit in your army. You can't make a game choice to include something you are not allowed to include at the time you have the restriction stating you are not allowed to include it.

Best case scenario, You can spawn the termagants but they do not have benefits or restrictions of the crusher stampede.

Middle road scenario: you cannot spawn termagants because the restrictions and benefits apply when the unit is included in your army, they are not allowed to be included in your army.

TFG scenario: it you spawn termagants your list is illegal and you are DQed with a 0 score.

I'm a fan of the best case scenario.

Why wouldnt they have the right keywords ?

KEYWORDS
All datasheets have a list of keywords, separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. In either case, keywords appear in KEYWORD BOLD in the rules. Keywords are sometimes linked to (or ‘tagged’ by) a rule. For example, a rule might say that it applies to ‘INFANTRY units’. This means it only applies to units that have the INFANTRY keyword on their datasheet. The pluralisation (or not) of keywords does not affect which units the rule in question applies to.

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular brackets, such as <CHAPTER>, <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS>. This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets, then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit using that rule.

Because crusher stampede does not replace <Hive Fleet>

The rule you qouted makes you pick for that, crusher stampede is not an option for that. It is an additional keyword you gain during army creation, not a selectable keyword on the units datasheet.

The termagants would spawn with the hive fleet keyword for the hive fleet you chose for the crusher stampede army you built, but would not gain crusher stampede keyword as there is currently no permission to add that keyword.

why is this still being argued?

Spawned units do get the 5++. LVO is also ruling that they get it so its going to likely be accepted at 90% of big tournies.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
why is this still being argued?

Spawned units do get the 5++. LVO is also ruling that they get it so its going to likely be accepted at 90% of big tournies.

They can rule that, it's just not how the rule works as written.

Most of 6th and 7th was played with house rules so no big deal.