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2022/01/21 16:52:49
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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So with the new drop from Tau today GW has added back into the game the beam mechanic back into the game "draw a line any thing under it, it takes a hit"
What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2022/01/21 18:09:37
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Battleship Captain
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Not fething Beam weapons anyway. Awful psudo template rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 18:10:06
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2022/01/21 18:10:05
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Backspacehacker wrote:
What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?
A few, gven in no particular order....
•Real deep strike rules - not this 9" away crap
•Functional morale mechanics
•Functional terrain rules
•Functional LoS rules
•Vehicles - facings/weapons arcs
•The return of the Squats
•The las/ plas Razorback added to the Legends section
•Pre-primaris Ragnar Blackmane added to the Legends section - why not, we have non-primaris Calgar
•a rules clarification as to what "Forwards" means concerning moving flyers - you know, since that implies a facing. Wich doesn't exist rules wise in this edition....
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2022/01/21 18:43:23
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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SQUAAAATS!!!!
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2022/01/21 18:55:34
Subject: Re:Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I mean we've had various spells do this as does Morty's pistol, so....this is nothing new.
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2022/01/21 18:57:37
Subject: Re:Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Executing Exarch
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quick quick hide the v-cannons
and of course make Soulblaze great again...
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"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." |
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2022/01/21 19:16:06
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.
AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)
Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)
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2022/01/21 19:22:01
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2022/01/21 19:25:29
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Tittliewinks22 wrote:Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.
AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)
Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)
Honestly at that point just go back to the old wounding system it was not hard to remember
If the T of the target was 4 higher then the strength of the weapon it could not be wounded.
I'm not a fan of 6 always wounds. Automatically Appended Next Post: tneva82 wrote:No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...
Well you can thank GWs wounding system for that. Ever since they changed to the new system odd number str weapons have been gimped/awkward to use.
Str 6 and 7 weapons in particular are in a bad place.
Going back to the old to wound system would help with this
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 19:38:12
To many unpainted models to count. |
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2022/01/21 19:39:09
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Pious Palatine
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Backspacehacker wrote:Tittliewinks22 wrote:Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.
AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)
Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)
Honestly at that point just go back to the old wounding system it was not hard to remember
If the T of the target was 4 higher then the strength of the weapon it could not be wounded.
I'm not a fan of 6 always wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...
Well you can thank GWs wounding system for that. Ever since they changed to the new system odd number str weapons have been gimped/awkward to use.
Str 6 and 7 weapons in particular are in a bad place.
Going back to the old to wound system would help with this
Pretty sure it was 3 higher.
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2022/01/21 19:41:12
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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No it was 4 our higher you can't wound
S4 vs t4= 4s t5=5 t6,7=6 anything higher then that could not be wounded.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2022/01/21 19:46:00
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Pious Palatine
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Backspacehacker wrote:No it was 4 our higher you can't wound S4 vs t4= 4s t5=5 t6,7=6 anything higher then that could not be wounded. I was thinking of it as 'only can wound something that is less than or equal to 3 more than you toughness.' Same thing, just stated backwards.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 19:46:16
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2022/01/21 19:47:34
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Oh I gotcha yea that's fair same thing hah.
But I really do miss that wounding system and thing it should be brought back
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2022/01/21 22:12:09
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.
I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
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2022/01/21 22:19:43
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Sgt. Cortez wrote:The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.
I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?
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2022/01/22 02:47:54
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Fixture of Dakka
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deviantduck wrote:Sgt. Cortez wrote:The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.
I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?
So long as it just the Imperial ones we should be good.
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2022/01/22 04:34:30
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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ccs wrote: deviantduck wrote:Sgt. Cortez wrote:The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.
I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?
So long as it just the Imperial ones we should be good.
What, you don't want to deal with the Fire Dragon beam parade?
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2022/01/22 08:24:29
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Fixture of Dakka
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FFS give us back HoW attacks!
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2022/01/22 22:53:13
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Fixture of Dakka
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AnomanderRake wrote:ccs wrote: deviantduck wrote:Sgt. Cortez wrote:The morale system is the only thing that was better in the past (while being useless back then as well, because everybody but a Grot outright ignored it... And sometimes even grots ignored it).
The old morale system with today's Codizes would be pretty nice, because nobody is outright fearless, they're just ignoring attrition modifiers.
I'll also have to repeat though that beams never went away, they've been there the whole time in 8th and 9th so they're a strange thing to pick
is it too soon for: #MakeImperialMeltasBeamsToo ?
So long as it just the Imperial ones we should be good.
What, you don't want to deal with the Fire Dragon beam parade?
Your sarcasm detector not working?
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2022/01/23 00:59:21
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Leader of the Sept
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Bring back the template phase… vortex amd plasma grenades with persistent movable blast templates? Yes please
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Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 |
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2022/01/23 01:12:58
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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There are bewmwewpons in the game from before. Mortarion lantern for instance. And others. Nothing new.
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2022/01/27 16:13:17
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Malicious Mandrake
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What Flinty said....
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2022/01/27 18:22:27
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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I want my super formations back, those were fun.
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Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k |
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2022/01/27 20:44:05
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Backspacehacker wrote:Tittliewinks22 wrote:Toughness values to actually represent the AV system of old better.
AV14 was effectively T10 (s10 needed 4's to glance)
Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)
Honestly at that point just go back to the old wounding system it was not hard to remember
If the T of the target was 4 higher then the strength of the weapon it could not be wounded.
I'm not a fan of 6 always wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:No it wasn't even nearly the same. There was big difference are you av13 or 14. T10 represents AV14? So AV13 T9? So there's no difference whether you shoot with autocannon, krak missile or lascannon...
Well you can thank GWs wounding system for that. Ever since they changed to the new system odd number str weapons have been gimped/awkward to use.
Str 6 and 7 weapons in particular are in a bad place.
Going back to the old to wound system would help with this
Alright, I think that I got it. Following your suggestions and using the current rules, is possible to arrange by changing the datasheet values of S for weapons and T for vehicles as follows:
AV10 -> T 6 (e.g. venom, ork trukks, land spider)
AV 11 -> T 8 (e.g. Rhino)
AV 12 -> T 12 (e.g. Falcon, Devilfish)
AV 13 -> T 16 (e.g. Leman Russ)
AV 14 -> T 24 (e.g. Land Raider, Necron Monolith)
Then for weapons with S less than 7, we keep them as they are (e.g. assault cannons to be S6)
S7 (e.g. autocanons) -> S 8
S8 (e.g. krak missiles) -> S 12
S9 (e.g. Las cannons) -> S 16
S10 (e.g. D-weapons) -> S 24
This will leave the following table
Lower values of S (e.g. bolters, etc..) will not match the old AV wounding / Hull point system, but we can argue that weapons of S6 are not meant to be hitting vehicles so we can make this compromise. If we ignore this then this table will approximately match the old AV system.
On top of that if we want to get back to the situation where small weapons couldn't hurt the heaviest tanks at all, then it can be applied a rule like:
If a weapon hits a unit that has the keyword vehicle then if the strength of this weapon is less than half the toughness of the unit been hit by the weapon then subtract one from the wound roll.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 20:44:58
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2022/01/27 22:13:07
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Backspacehacker wrote:What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?
Beam weapons are not unique to Tau. Mortarion had this since he got a datasheet.
Rules I'd like to see restored:
- Template Weapons
- Tank Shock
- Instant Death
- Initiative (added to every phase, including movement)
- Salvo rules from 6th edition applied to all heavy weapons not on a platform
- Closest model takes the wound
- No shooting through your own units
- Winged creatures have to land then charge the next turn
- 6th ed USRs
- Warpflame Gargoyles
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2022/01/27 22:35:42
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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Flinty wrote:Bring back the template phase… vortex amd plasma grenades with persistent movable blast templates? Yes please
This^^
Plus templates in general. Automatically Appended Next Post: techsoldaten wrote: Backspacehacker wrote:What other mechanics do you wanna see come back into the game that got cut out during 8th?
Beam weapons are not unique to Tau. Mortarion had this since he got a datasheet.
Rules I'd like to see restored:
- Template Weapons
- Tank Shock
- Instant Death
- Initiative (added to every phase, including movement)
- Salvo rules from 6th edition applied to all heavy weapons not on a platform
- Closest model takes the wound
- No shooting through your own units
- Winged creatures have to land then charge the next turn
- 6th ed USRs
- Warpflame Gargoyles
Agreed… USRs generally, “dataslates” meh…
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 22:37:12
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2022/01/28 15:13:47
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I like how people already forgot how dumb T8 spam negating 90% of enemy weapons was (especially for armies that could spam monstrous creatures). Tyranid stampede is bad now when you can theoretically wound it with everything, it would be utterly broken if it was invulnerable (ditto for Eldar/Tau MC spam, or hell, IH Ironclads for SM). But hey, let's repeat easy mistakes of old editions, especially in an edition where cherrypicked spam of high T is easier than ever
Tittliewinks22 wrote:Capping any T value at 8 is horrible. Also if T is triple the S, then it should be unwoundable, likewise if S is triple T, then it should auto-wound (no roll)
The issue with new system is T8 cap, not progression. Old system was gak because it made too easy to 2+ infantry models with even a tiny buff while requiring absurd strengths for anything even slightly tougher. Too narrow at start of the range, zero granularity for anything past that.
Say, that new S14 tau titan gun. Under what you propose, it would vaporize marines, but it couldn't touch the slightly diseased ones (or SM on a bike) because I can't even. How does it make sense, again?
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2022/01/28 16:57:39
Subject: Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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None really. If anything I feel like GW didn't do enough to sever its legacy root to WHFB with 8th. If anything I'd rather GW take cue from games like Legion, MCP, and such to evolve their game rather than regress.
Also the old wounding system sucked.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 16:59:53
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2022/01/28 17:05:23
Subject: Re:Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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I feel like the old wounding system made a lot of stuff feel better imo, same with armor. One thing that I think the old system did well was it made you sorta have to do combined arms, at least a little bit. I feel like that’s something modern 40k is missing, army compositions just look strange now. “Ah, the Metamancian first regiment, comprises solely of tank commanders, ogryns, artillery, and priests.”
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"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos |
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2022/01/28 20:55:34
Subject: Re:Now that beam weapons are back, what else do you wanna see?
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Stormin' Stompa
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I do miss AV for vehicles. It felt more immersive and interesting to try and outflank vehicles. Bating the tank into shifting its firing angle. Getting that melta squad into the perfect position. Some strategy stuff.
Could you perhaps have some kind of toughness modifier?
+1 T when hitting the front
+0 T when hitting the side
- 1 T when hitting the back
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 20:57:00
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