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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Basically title. The current build that everyone is talking about, which is definitely getting nerfed, is built around voidweaver and starweaver spam. For obvious reasons these are now sold out everywhere, so I'm stuck with 60+ Players and 10 skyweavers and a single voidweaver to try to build an army around. I haven't been able to find much discussion out there about how well Harlies will perform without transports, outside of one batrep that was ~90 players vs Custodes (Harlies won, 90-something to like 14 or whatever). List wise I was thinking Light detachment with something along the lines of:

1x Troupe Masters
2x Shadowseers
3x Death Jesters
6x 10 Players w/ 2 fusion guns, kiss, embrace
5 Skyweavers w/ Haywire + Bolas
5 Skyweavers w/ Shuriken + Glaive
1 Voidweaver

leftover points (back of the envelope math says roughly 100 pts) for various upgrades, etc.

Any thoughts on the ability of this list to win? I know it has some obvious weak matchups (Crusher Stampede for one), not looking for something to take to a tournament, but looking for something that has a 50/50 chance of winning vs the average tournament style competitive list.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Footslogging is a slow way to die.
Not a viable concept if you ask me.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of New Jersey

 wuestenfux wrote:
Footslogging is a slow way to die.
Not a viable concept if you ask me.


Somehow that doesn't seem like a major concern to an army that:

  • Cant be hit on less than a 4+ (unmodified) army wide when firing model is more than 12" away

  • Has a strat that makes a unit -1 to hit

  • Has Shadowseer auras giving -1 to wound against Harlies within 6"

  • Can cast a psychic power that makes a unit untargetable unless its the closest unit to the enemy

  • Can cast a psychic power that makes an enemy unit unable to target anything farther than 18"

  • Has army wide 4+ invul

  • Has a strategem that grants a unit a 3+ invul

  • Can cast a psychic power that grants a 6" aura which ignores wounds on a 6

  • Has a relic that grants a 6" aura that ignores mortal wounds on a 5+

  • Has a character ability that creates a 6" aura that counts friendly units as being 6" further away for the purposes of being targeted by ranged attacks (i.e. weapons with 12" rapid fire range need to be within 6" to actually rapid fire)


  • Oh, and theres a relic that makes all those auras 9" instead (except the mortal wound one, cant have both on the same model).

    The army is far from invulnerable, but most standard infantry weapons at range will only have an at-best ~10%% chance of successfully causing a wound, not including any rerolls they may have. Higher S weapons weapons its about 13%.

    That ain't nothing, it means on a average Im losing a squad of infantry for every 110 shots fired at me, which is only really a consideration on turn 1 because the army is fast enough to hit melee on turn 2 against most opponents. There aresome armies that could probably remove 2-3 units from the board in a single shooting phase, but most will probably struggle to get more than 1 on that first turn dur to stacking buffs/debuffs..

    Its not as powerful as the en vogue Starweaver/Voidweaver spam because I lose access ro the -1 to hit no reroll ability that weavers have (though the skyweavers do heve the no reroll ability, just not the -1 to hit part), abd the army is obviously not quite as fast being on foot, but thats made up for by having more than 2x more models on the board

    CoALabaer wrote:
    Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
     
       
    Made in us
    Furious Fire Dragon




    USA

    Harlequins are glass cannons, and being on foot does not help them, regardless of the buffs that a unit receives. Best of luck to you, but the best armies have several ranged threat units, and those will crush foot slogging clowns.
    - Once you pop “lightning fast reactions” a smart opponent just shifts target priority to a different unit.
    - All of those physic powers can be denied or fail to cast.
    - Harlequin saves are a coin toss. Mass fire will wreck the T3 (even with the distance/wound aura from the shadowseer).

    I haven’t done the math, but 10/13 percent seems crazy low. I’d love to see how you go those numbers.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/02 04:45:51


    We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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    :harlequin: 2k
    2k
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    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut





    I assume it's because a S4 weapon will be:

    4+ to hit
    4+ to wound
    4+ invulnerable
    6+++

    which gives a 10.4% chance of causing a wound
       
    Made in us
    Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




    The Great State of New Jersey

    Twilight Pathways wrote:
    I assume it's because a S4 weapon will be:

    4+ to hit
    4+ to wound
    4+ invulnerable
    6+++

    which gives a 10.4% chance of causing a wound


    Yep. But even if it were an S9000 weapon it would be

    4+ to hit
    3+ to wound
    4+ invulnerable
    6+++

    which gives a 13.8% (I rounded incorrectly previously, my bad)

    again, asduming no rerolls, though if the reroll is a result of an aura the clowns have a way of shutting that down.

    I would think the fact that the clowns manhandled the custodes in the batrep i likked previously would imply they have some game on foot against certain top tier opponents regardless of the perceived weakness and fragility.

    CoALabaer wrote:
    Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
     
       
    Made in us
    Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




    Just out of curiosity- how would multi-wound inflicting weapons fare? I know that harlies only have 1 wound for their troopers but if you're going to factor in the 6+++ then you should also look at D2 weapons since they are becoming more common.
       
    Made in us
    Furious Fire Dragon




    USA

    Any unit which also does mortal wounds with their shooting units will shred the foot harlies, even with the 6++ (assuming the power actually gets cast and is not denied)

    We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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    :harlequin: 2k
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    Made in us
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    I don't see why it wouldn't work. The logic set out is reasonable. The example game is reasonable.

    I wouldn't have thought there's much written about it because who has 60, let alone 90, Harlequins on hand?

    I'd argue its similar to Harlequins when 9th dropped. Its theoretically possible to tech into this build with say Tau etc. You can get to those hundreds of shots which is what you'd need to do to handle things efficiently. But you are taking things you wouldn't take against everyone else. So unless it were to become very popular you just won't.
       
    Made in it
    Waaagh! Ork Warboss




    Italy

    I think they'd work pretty good.

    They're fast, tanky and cheap enough to work. Sisters (who has 90+ infantry sisters? And yet horde-ish sisters ARE played), necrons and SM on foot work. Also custodes, which are definitely tougher but in the list above I see almost 70 infantries plus 10 bikes and a vehicle. That should be on pair with custodes armies.

    Not tournament level probably, but mostly because harlies vehicles are really really good.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/03 06:41:17


     
       
    Made in de
    Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






    Hamburg

    Somehow that doesn't seem like a major concern to an army that:

    Cant be hit on less than a 4+ (unmodified) army wide when firing model is more than 12" away

    Has a strat that makes a unit -1 to hit

    Has Shadowseer auras giving -1 to wound against Harlies within 6"

    Can cast a psychic power that makes a unit untargetable unless its the closest unit to the enemy

    Can cast a psychic power that makes an enemy unit unable to target anything farther than 18"

    Has army wide 4+ invul

    Has a strategem that grants a unit a 3+ invul

    Can cast a psychic power that grants a 6" aura which ignores wounds on a 6

    Has a relic that grants a 6" aura that ignores mortal wounds on a 5+

    Has a character ability that creates a 6" aura that counts friendly units as being 6" further away for the purposes of being targeted by ranged attacks (i.e. weapons with 12" rapid fire range need to be within 6" to actually rapid fire)

    Do I want to spend my psychic powers and CPs to defensive buffs only?
    Not my playstyle. With CP I want rerolls in the first place.

    Former moderator 40kOnline

    Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

    Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

    Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
       
    Made in us
    Furious Fire Dragon




    USA

     wuestenfux wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Somehow that doesn't seem like a major concern to an army that:

    Cant be hit on less than a 4+ (unmodified) army wide when firing model is more than 12" away

    Has a strat that makes a unit -1 to hit

    Has Shadowseer auras giving -1 to wound against Harlies within 6"

    Can cast a psychic power that makes a unit untargetable unless its the closest unit to the enemy

    Can cast a psychic power that makes an enemy unit unable to target anything farther than 18"

    Has army wide 4+ invul

    Has a strategem that grants a unit a 3+ invul

    Can cast a psychic power that grants a 6" aura which ignores wounds on a 6

    Has a relic that grants a 6" aura that ignores mortal wounds on a 5+

    Has a character ability that creates a 6" aura that counts friendly units as being 6" further away for the purposes of being targeted by ranged attacks (i.e. weapons with 12" rapid fire range need to be within 6" to actually rapid fire)

    Do I want to spend my psychic powers and CPs to defensive buffs only?
    Not my playstyle. With CP I want rerolls in the first place.
    I mean to be fair, rerolls is the one thing Harlequins don't need with Luck of the Laughing God. I agree with being more offensive with my psychic users though

    We mortals are but shadows and dust...
    6k
    :harlequin: 2k
    2k
    2k 
       
     
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