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At 5.5 points per model, they aren't quite impressive. They are the most generic and unfun unit in the game, minus the Gretchins. When playing Astra Militarum, these guys are just there to hold objectives and be the cannon fodder. The real stars are always the tanks, artilleries, and Bullgryns.

Considering other line infantry like Ork Boyz and Tyrannid Termangants are getting buffed to make them more viable in small numbers, I hope that Guardsmen will also gain better stats such as 4+ armor save by default, +1 to hit when not moving, lasgun being S4 or AP-1, or gaining some cool special rules. Their point cost would be upped to 7pts per model, the same as Termagants.

S3 AP-1 would be interesting but unlikely. I'd say there is very little chance of S4.

I think an interesting idea for Guardsmen that just occurred to me is a "walk and chew gum" rule where they may perform actions along with psychery, advancing, shooting, charging. Would that solve your Guardsmen woes? That seems kind of a human buff that would also be fluffy. Same points and stats.

I really don’t want guardsmen changing too much. I think best approach is the action thing, free special weapons, and having them act as spotters or anything. A guardsman is t3 s3 4+ ws and bs, and flak is a 5+.
Shame on anyone trying to change the lasgun.

What about "without number" or whatever they might call it now? Die and recycle.

Give it to base infantry and conscripts and now you have a scary wall of meat that never, ever stops.

Yeah, even though there is definite power creep for stats, especially for a lot of the basic infantry weapons, guard's whole schtick is to be expendable and take up real estate at a reasonable cost. Having some way to either ensure you have some sort of way to soak up fire maybe without giving up VP for secondaries would be interesting as would be being able to coordinate like someone previously said as spotters somehow.

Guardsmen are already really good considering how cheap they are. It doesn't look so since the army overall is in a really bad spot but with a strong codex there's no reason guardsmen should stay that cheap and effective.

5ppm is the cost of gretchins which are terrible in comparison. Buffed guardsmen should also come with a significant points hike, 7ppm like the OP suggests could be fine but IMHO BS4+ for a two shots S3 AP0 weapon and T3 5+ with the chance of getting orders and boost their stats or damage output is already the profile of a 7ppm model. Kabalite warriors are basically that, with a worse weapon and +1ppm (they're 8ppm) but better BS.

Honestly. I see them going back to 5 PPM and getting 30 inch range lasguns. The squad themselves getting krak grenades and that's about it.

Conscripts will probably get the Cultist treatment. Lose access to Regiment Doctrines but get WS4+ and BS4+.

 Blackie wrote:
Guardsmen are already really good considering how cheap they are. It doesn't look so since the army overall is in a really bad spot but with a strong codex there's no reason guardsmen should stay that cheap and effective.

Good at what? Taking damage? Dealing out damage? Seizing objectives?

Granted I've yet to play a game of 9th but from what I see they're not good at any of those.

The problem has always been that, yeah, they're cheap, but they come in bite-sized chunks of 10 guys that melt like butter. Kill 3 to force a morale check, kill 6 to drive them under 50%.

Returning blobbing would help them take a punch, "without number" or some other recycling mechanic would make them much scarier. And both changes would be in keeping with the their historic fluff and power levels.

Blobbing would help them only if they have access to be fearless. Ork boyz are unplayable in units bigger than 10 models for that reason.

And unless there's a stratagem that significantly buffs them I don't see the point of larger squads over multiple min ones. 50 points squads of 10 wounds are good for actions and objectives.

 Blackie wrote:
Guardsmen are already really good considering how cheap they are. It doesn't look so since the army overall is in a really bad spot but with a strong codex there's no reason guardsmen should stay that cheap and effective.

5ppm is the cost of gretchins which are terrible in comparison. Buffed guardsmen should also come with a significant points hike, 7ppm like the OP suggests could be fine but IMHO BS4+ for a two shots S3 AP0 weapon and T3 5+ with the chance of getting orders and boost their stats or damage output is already the profile of a 7ppm model. Kabalite warriors are basically that, with a worse weapon and +1ppm (they're 8ppm) but better BS.

How on earth do you consider a Splinter Rifle worse than a Lasgun?

bibotot wrote:
At 5.5 points per model, they aren't quite impressive. They are the most generic and unfun unit in the game, minus the Gretchins. When playing Astra Militarum, these guys are just there to hold objectives and be the cannon fodder. The real stars are always the tanks, artilleries, and Bullgryns.

Considering other line infantry like Ork Boyz and Tyrannid Termangants are getting buffed to make them more viable in small numbers, I hope that Guardsmen will also gain better stats such as 4+ armor save by default, +1 to hit when not moving, lasgun being S4 or AP-1, or gaining some cool special rules. Their point cost would be upped to 7pts per model, the same as Termagants.

I would prefer the basic guard staying as is BUT having the options to upgrade to the huge variety of different regiments in the lore

So Mesh, Carpace armour or even primitive Power armour upgrades
Melee weapons
Cameoline cloaks
Bike, horse squads
Las Fusils, Las carbines etc,

So keep the possibility to have cannon fodder but also have the option to have more elite units.

Base Lasgun def should not be S4 or -1 AP.

I'm not sure you want buffed Guardsmen.

I mean, for example Tyranid termagants got buffed, they also got a considerable price increase of 2ppm per model. Guardmen getting buffed would likely come with a similar price increase.

And IMHO point for point guardsmen are still the best horde infantry in the game, it is just that the rest of the army sucks.

Jarms48 wrote:
Honestly. I see them going back to 5 PPM and getting 30 inch range lasguns. The squad themselves getting krak grenades and that's about it.

Conscripts will probably get the Cultist treatment. Lose access to Regiment Doctrines but get WS4+ and BS4+.

Following on from my comment.

I could also see things like:
- Vox-casters buffed to infinite range like Datatethers.
- Sniper Rifles likely buffed to AP-2 and renamed Long Las. Makes thematic sense as they fire hotshot power packs. It’s also pointless currently, so the buff would make it viable.
- Grenade Launchers and Flamers likely reduced to a 3 point upgrade. Would make them viable compared to always taking a 5 point plasma or melta.

- Company Commanders having Take Aim! as a 6” aura like every other HQ faction commander.
- I imagine there will be some kind of Regiment Commander upgrade to the Company Commander with a targetable +1 to Hit.
- Platoon Commanders having Bring It Down! As a 6” aura like every other HQ faction secondary commander.
- First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire changed to autowounds on 6’s to Hit. Not necessarily a buff, but will greatly speed up dice rolling for similar results as the current FRFSRF.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:What about "without number" or whatever they might call it now? Die and recycle.

Seems like the sort of thing that would make for a good stratagem. In the past, Without Number ran into the problem of the respawned unit being too far away to impact the game because they arrive too far from the action. Nowadays, I feel like you'd end up either having the same problem, or you'd risk making the respawn too big of a pain for certain missions. There are some missions where you're strongly encouraged to stand on an objective in your opponent's deployment zone, for instance. Having guardsmen respawn every time you kill them would be thematic, but it would al so make interacting with them feel kind of pointless. You'd end up with weird scenarios where players are trying to tie guardsmen up without killing them to avoid getting counterattacked by their respawning unit.

JNAProductions wrote:How on earth do you consider a Splinter Rifle worse than a Lasgun?

Technically, they're worse against gretchin and spore mines!

Mr Morden wrote:
I would prefer the basic guard staying as is BUT having the options to upgrade to the huge variety of different regiments in the lore

So Mesh, Carpace armour or even primitive Power armour upgrades
Melee weapons
Cameoline cloaks
Bike, horse squads
Las Fusils, Las carbines etc,

So keep the possibility to have cannon fodder but also have the option to have more elite units.

See, that sounds awesome. I'm just not sure it's very likely given that GW isn't overly supportive of conversions/kitbashes right now and also doesn't seem likely to be rolling out a ton of different guardsmen variant squads. But I'd love to see that sort of customization in a fandex.

Jarms48 wrote:
- Vox-casters buffed to infinite range like Datatethers.
- Sniper Rifles likely buffed to AP-2 and renamed Long Las. Makes thematic sense as they fire hotshot power packs. It’s also pointless currently, so the buff would make it viable.
- Grenade Launchers and Flamers likely reduced to a 3 point upgrade. Would make them viable compared to always taking a 5 point plasma or melta.

Could definitely see the vox change happening. Kind of dubious about AP-2 sniper rifles given that the other sniper units with supposedly more advanced tech haven't been getting a similar change.

Would a 2 point discount on grenade launchers and flamers really make them viable? I get that it could maybe save you ~10 points army-wide, but is that really enough to talk someone out of more powerful weapons? If we're specifically trying to make them more viable on infantry squads, maybe introduce some stratagems that only work in infantry and veteran squads? Introduce a "Shock and Awe" strat that costs 0CP, can only be used once per phase, and lets infantry/vets with one or more grenade launchers turn off overwatch on an enemy unit. Or a flamer strat that costs 0CP, can be used once per turn, and lets a unit overwatch for free. Something to add value to the weapons instead of turning it into a mathhammer question.

- Company Commanders having Take Aim! as a 6” aura like every other HQ faction commander.
- I imagine there will be some kind of Regiment Commander upgrade to the Company Commander with a targetable +1 to Hit.
- Platoon Commanders having Bring It Down! As a 6” aura like every other HQ faction secondary commander.
- First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire changed to autowounds on 6’s to Hit. Not necessarily a buff, but will greatly speed up dice rolling for similar results as the current FRFSRF.

Personally, I'm really hoping we continue to see fewer auras and more targeted buffs. Makes for more interesting choices and fewer castled up gunlines. Alternatively, make those auras only impact units like guardsmen that need a little help, and give those auras to guys like the platoon commander who can feel redundant with the company commander. Or do something like the craftworlder Doom psychic power where you can only target one unit with the rule, but then it applies to all your core units table-wide as long as they're targeting the unit you called out.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Guardsmen are already really good considering how cheap they are. It doesn't look so since the army overall is in a really bad spot but with a strong codex there's no reason guardsmen should stay that cheap and effective.

5ppm is the cost of gretchins which are terrible in comparison. Buffed guardsmen should also come with a significant points hike, 7ppm like the OP suggests could be fine but IMHO BS4+ for a two shots S3 AP0 weapon and T3 5+ with the chance of getting orders and boost their stats or damage output is already the profile of a 7ppm model. Kabalite warriors are basically that, with a worse weapon and +1ppm (they're 8ppm) but better BS.

How on earth do you consider a Splinter Rifle worse than a Lasgun?

Edit: you're right, lol. I mixed up lasguns and bolters when I did my math .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
I'm not sure you want buffed Guardsmen.

I mean, for example Tyranid termagants got buffed, they also got a considerable price increase of 2ppm per model. Guardmen getting buffed would likely come with a similar price increase.

And IMHO point for point guardsmen are still the best horde infantry in the game, it is just that the rest of the army sucks.

They are. That's why I prefer buffed but more expensive guardsmen. Horde style needs to go and 60 guardsmens are still a lot of models for dirt cheap even at 7ppm.

Guardsmen should depend upon the regiment type.
Heavy infantry regimment guardsmen should have SV 4+
Light one should have scout and cover rule whilest having SV6+

etc. etc.

but designing actual doctrines and by extention customizable unit cards is too much work for GW nowadays.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guardsmen should depend upon the regiment type.
Heavy infantry regimment guardsmen should have SV 4+
Light one should have scout and cover rule whilest having SV6+

etc. etc.

but designing actual doctrines and by extention customizable unit cards is too much work for GW nowadays.

This change would require some extensive new models for the guard.

But I could see a codex were the guard gets 4 or more troop choices:

Conscripts - 6+ save, without number
Scouts/raiders/light infantry 6+ save, scout move, 7" or 8" move stat, 2 special weapons
Infantry, 5+ save, usual weapon options
Heavy Infantry, 4+ save, 4" or 5" move stat

Then scions, vets, and some sort of catachen devil infiltrating unit in elites.

But that means several new kits so it would be unlikely.

I can also see a game where GW gets away from generic light/heavy infantry and goes in for branding and hyper specific regiments along the lines of the Necromunda gangs.

So plastic kits for Tallarn, Tanith, Mordians, Catachans etc with a troop and alternate elite build for each.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guardsmen should depend upon the regiment type.
Heavy infantry regimment guardsmen should have SV 4+
Light one should have scout and cover rule whilest having SV6+

etc. etc.

but designing actual doctrines and by extention customizable unit cards is too much work for GW nowadays.

This change would require some extensive new models for the guard.

But I could see a codex were the guard gets 4 or more troop choices:

Conscripts - 6+ save, without number
Scouts/raiders/light infantry 6+ save, scout move, 7" or 8" move stat, 2 special weapons
Infantry, 5+ save, usual weapon options
Heavy Infantry, 4+ save, 4" or 5" move stat

Then scions, vets, and some sort of catachen devil infiltrating unit in elites.

But that means several new kits so it would be unlikely.

this design requires preciscly ONE troop choice in the codex, it has been done to great effect already in the past and even the recent past (cue R&H militia).
And kit wise it would only require GW for once to sell something that is worth the pricetag for once for a basic guard squad. Compare anything from Wargames atlantic death fields with the contents of the sprued up cadian kit and tell me that GW does sell you something comparable. (hint it does not)

LOL I totally agree on all counts. The Guard have always gotten the short stick when it comes to quality plastics, it was only in 2021 that the 18 year old Cadian set got all its special weapons (the 21 year old Catachans still have not) and the Scions would have to have twice as many models to be worth their price.

As for rules, it seems that GW codexes no longer let us change saves, every version of a marine officer (in power armor, in termi armor, in gravitas (or whatever) armor) gets a separate entry.

So I would expect that Light/Medium/Heavy infantry would also need their own entry. Besides I like the idea of play with their move stats to give different armor different effects.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Melee weapons
Cameoline cloaks
Bike, horse squads
Las Fusils, Las carbines etc,

So keep the possibility to have cannon fodder but also have the option to have more elite units.

See, that sounds awesome. I'm just not sure it's very likely given that GW isn't overly supportive of conversions/kitbashes right now and also doesn't seem likely to be rolling out a ton of different guardsmen variant squads. But I'd love to see that sort of customization in a fandex.

All that could easily be done with doctrines. Have a regiment doctrine that gives <Regiment> Infantry a 4+ save. One that gives <Regiment> infantry -1 to Hit when they're outside 12 inches, and vehicles outside 18 inches. Horses are already here, and new ones are rumoured to be coming. Bikes could work, but they fill the same role as horses, so what's the point? Las carbines are just alternate lasguns and can easily happen.

Could definitely see the vox change happening. Kind of dubious about AP-2 sniper rifles given that the other sniper units with supposedly more advanced tech haven't been getting a similar change.

Deathmarks are S5 AP-2. Eliminators are S5 AP-2 Damage 2. Jackal Alphus has S5 AP-3 Damage 2. Long-las's being S4 AP-2 Damage 1 is fine. It's literally a single shot of a Hotshot Volley Gun.

Would a 2 point discount on grenade launchers and flamers really make them viable? I get that it could maybe save you ~10 points army-wide, but is that really enough to talk someone out of more powerful weapons? If we're specifically trying to make them more viable on infantry squads, maybe introduce some stratagems that only work in infantry and veteran squads? Introduce a "Shock and Awe" strat that costs 0CP, can only be used once per phase, and lets infantry/vets with one or more grenade launchers turn off overwatch on an enemy unit. Or a flamer strat that costs 0CP, can be used once per turn, and lets a unit overwatch for free. Something to add value to the weapons instead of turning it into a mathhammer question.

GW won't do any of that. If flamers are changed they'd likely be:
- D6+2 shots
- AP-1
- S6
- made cheaper
- or not changed at all (GSC has suggested this)

A 3 point flamer means you can get 3 of them for less than 2 BS4+ plasma guns. That's an average of 10.5 autohitting boltgun shots, compared to 2 hits of S7/8 AP-3 Damage 1/2 whilst in RF range. Obviously mileage varies depending on the target.

As for Grenade Launchers, GSC codex has also shown the Grenade Launcher profile is not likely to change at all. So making it cheaper also makes it more useful. Like the flamer you can get 3 grenade launchers for the same price as 2 BS4+ plasma guns. That's 1.5 hits of S6 AP- DD3 compared to 1 hit of S7/8 AP-3 Damage 1/2, obviously the plasma is still better in the majority of cases but the game is much smaller than before.

Though unlike the flamer, giving the grenade launcher to BS3+ models actually reduces this gap further. Now a single plasma gun is 10 points and historically (see the current Guard codex) grenade launcher costs don't increase. So you get 3 BS3+ grenade launchers for less than 1 BS3+ plasma gun. Plasma gun has a 66.67% chance for 1 hit, while the grenade launchers get 2 hits. In this case the grenade launchers are actually slightly better against something like marines.

So just making these 2 weapons slightly cheaper does make them more viable.

Personally, I'm really hoping we continue to see fewer auras and more targeted buffs. Makes for more interesting choices and fewer castled up gunlines. Alternatively, make those auras only impact units like guardsmen that need a little help, and give those auras to guys like the platoon commander who can feel redundant with the company commander. Or do something like the craftworlder Doom psychic power where you can only target one unit with the rule, but then it applies to all your core units table-wide as long as they're targeting the unit you called out.

That's also not going to happen. Every 9th edition codex basically has 1 main faction commander with a RR1 to Hit aura. Then 1 sub-commander with a RR1 to Wound aura. Guard will still have orders, but I imagine they'll get more powerful and limited to single targets. Basically the previous style of orders before the balance change. So Take Aim! and Bring It Down! would be replaced with Fire On My Target! which would be a +1 to Hit against a specific target. MMM! would likely be turned into an auto 6 inch advance. Fix Bayonets! will probably be some kind of bonus to charge, maybe an advance and charge.

These things are much more likely to happen.

They just need an order that lets the do actions without failing even if they advanced or shot. Orders might need to move to the command phase.

Every piece of artillery needs a #of shots, damage and ap buff/removes cover.

Lrbt need 15 wounds and dr1

So I would put my wishlists in two parts.

Part 1 - mission interaction
Basic Guardsmen squad becomes 'disposable'. That is for missions that require kills, killing them gets you nowt. Otherwise the 10 man squad will never be resilient enough.
OR Vehicles can take hits for guardsmen. If a guardsmen model is within 3" of a leman russ, chimera or lord of war (no support weapons or dangerous hellhounds), if the infantry squad passes a successful leadership test successful hits are applied to the vehicle (the infantry and armour are supporting each other).

(You take this further but I wouldn't, probably. Where Infantry could take hits for armour in the same way, maybe if they pass a LD test with a LD modifier related to the strength of the weapon - -1 if higher, -2 if double or more). Trying to represent combined arms warfare...

Part 2 - composition
Conscripts are the bare bones in blobs of 20-30, basic gear with flamers/grenade launchers (1 per 10). Would have their stats the same as regular guard.

Infantry squads are geared up but points don't change. 10 man squad includes vox, sarge has choice of pistol and chainsword or lasgun, and one guy has a flamer/grenade launcher.
Can give another squad member a special weapon, can also replace the basic special weapon with a different one.
In my dream world the special weapon list includes Heavy stubber. And in my fantasy world the missile launcher becomes a rocket launcher and again is a 1 man weapon.

A heavy weapon team can be added (taking the squad to 12 men for transport purposes), for the cost of the heavy weapon (crew are free).

Then if we really got into fantasy land I would scrap every stratagem (beyond the basic everyone gets), roll the strats into the datafaxes, make the orders speed up play (e.g. FRFSRF becomes lasguns auto hit) and remove the ranges for aura abilities if the model and recipient is near a vox.

dreadlybrew wrote:
Lrbt need 15 wounds and dr1

I kind of expect russes to end up looking a lot like exocrines. T8, 2+ save, and a few more wounds than they have now. Not a fan of giving them DR1. There are plenty of weapons in the game that are D2 or Dd3 that are meant to be effective against tanks even if they don't one-shot tanks. Autocannons and overcharged plasma should probably take more points off a russ's healthbar than a pulse rifle shot, right?

I don't see Guard as the cheapest (and therefore worst) infantry in the game - that belongs to Cultists (Chaos and GSC).
Guard are still a professionally trained and equipped military.
I'd want them pointed at 6-7pts each and tailor their effectiveness to suit.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't see Guard as the cheapest (and therefore worst) infantry in the game - that belongs to Cultists (Chaos and GSC).

Not to S2 T3 Ld4 7+ pistol wielding gretchins?

Oh yeah, Gretchin, didn't think of those.

Let me rephrase. I don't see Guard as the cheapest (and therefore worst) human infantry in the game - that belongs to Cultists.

Except you know, GSC cultists are not human (and many are part of the Guard).

I think they’re talking about chaos crazies, plus I think the actual impact of gsc is a little overstated, they exist, but they’re not on like even .01% of all the million planets in the imperium.

 Tyran wrote:
Except you know, GSC cultists are not human (and many are part of the Guard).

Neophytes and Brood Brothers are, for all intents and purposes, human.

It's once you get into the Acolytes and their ilk that things become more alien.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Neophytes and Brood Brothers are, for all intents and purposes, human.

It's once you get into the Acolytes and their ilk that things become more alien.

They also share a hive mind that allows far greater amounts of coordination, mindless fervor that simply cannot be matched by natural human courage and also are usually trained to the same standards as the Guard.

What they lack is the equipment, although not always.