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As the title suggests,
What chapters/units do you think will benefit most from the new rule

The three defensive Chapters (Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard) get the most in my opinion.

I'm not sure how much AP-4 there is (I dont feel i see it often), so Black Templars get less from the defensive vow with the 5++ and "2 doesn't wound you". In a way this actually benefits them since they can choose a different vow instead. The Vow to always be in Assault Doctrine will help for the mirror matches too.

Deathwatch are absolutely loving AoC.

Dark Angels Deathwing are gonna love AoC. They're already pretty sturdy thanks to permanent Transhuman; now it takes AP-4 to get them to their invul save. I'm also happy that my Ravenwing won't just get shredded by massed AP-1 fire.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Dark Angels Deathwing are gonna love AoC. They're already pretty sturdy thanks to permanent Transhuman; now it takes AP-4 to get them to their invul save. I'm also happy that my Ravenwing won't just get shredded by massed AP-1 fire.

Doesn’t Armor of Contempt not work on Storm Shield models?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Dark Angels Deathwing are gonna love AoC. They're already pretty sturdy thanks to permanent Transhuman; now it takes AP-4 to get them to their invul save. I'm also happy that my Ravenwing won't just get shredded by massed AP-1 fire.

Doesn’t Armor of Contempt not work on Storm Shield models?

Storm Shield models don't benefit from AoC, true, but I was thinking of non-SS models. Like Relic Terminators and other non-SS Termies. Those now get the benefit of SS without having to pay for one (they just don't get the 4++). And as I said, Ravenwing won't get massacred by all the AP-1 weapons, which is the main benefit (the Jink rule does nothing against such weapons).

Yeah I agree about the DW terminators, in fact it's looking good for terminators for all chapters now. Will hopefully see new loadouts to as it's not worth bringing shields anymore in my opinion. (More lightning claws and another CC weapon?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also do you think this weakens the salamanders whole thing of ignoring AP 1 as this will apply to all chapter now will it not?

Terminators love it.

SW dread castles love it.

Dath guard and thousand sons love it. :-)

Our tanks love it. Or at least the ones with 2+ saves do. Sicarans, Land Raiders, Vindicators with siege shields, Spartan chassis tanks, Fellblade chassis. It's almost like having T9 again, in fact, in some cases, it's better.

munnster wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also do you think this weakens the salamanders whole thing of ignoring AP 1 as this will apply to all chapter now will it not?

Salamanders don't have AP reduction as part of their CT now. It's a blanket "you cannot reroll wounds" when attacking a Salamanders unit now.

Didn't even realise that with the salamanders change. Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So in marine Vs marine match ups do you consider the standard bolt rifle with the -1 ap to be sub par compared to the auto bolt rifle now which gains the extra shot all be it at shorter range with 0 ap as they will both be 0 ap in this match up now anyway most of the time?

Yeah, the standard Bolt Rifle still underperforms, despite the Auto Bolt Rifle not being able to use that pip of AP during Tactical Doctrine. Doing the math:

Formula for failed saves against a target: X*BS*C*(AS-AP-1)/6

So we have 10 Marines shooting at a Marine with an S4 weapon. That means AS, or Armor Save, is 3, BS is 3+ or 4/6 (2/3), and C is 4+, or 1/2.

Bolt Rifle (Rapid Fire inside Tac Doctrine):
20*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(-2+1)-1)/6
10*(2/3)*(1/2)
5*(2/3) = 3.33333

Bolt Rifle (outside Tac Doctrine):
20*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(-1+1)-1)/6
10*(2/3)*(1/3)
20/9 = 2.2222222

Auto Bolt Rifle:
30*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(0)-1)/6
10(1/3)=3.3333333


So, you're dishing out as many wounds with the Auto Bolt Rifle all the time as the standard Bolt Rifle does during the Tactical Doctrine.

Also, as an added bonus, the Stalker Bolt Rifle:

In Devastator Doctrine:
10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(-3+1)-1)/6
5*(2/3)*(2/3)
20/9 = 2.222222

Outside of Devastator Doctrine :
10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(-2+1)-1)/6
5*(2/3)*(1/2)
5/3 = 1.66667

EDIT: D'oh! 2 damage per Stalker.

So the Stalker now actually seems pretty good, as it can actually add AP and deals 2 damage. With 2 kills during Turn 1 and 1.5 kills per turn after, you're looking at about 6-8 kills per game compared to the Auto Bolt Rifle's 5.

I'll do the math for the Heavy Intercessors later today.

EDIT2: Adding Heavy Intercessors

First I'll do 15 regular Intercessors with Auto and Stalker as a comparison.

Auto Bolt Rifle:
45*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(0)-1)/6
30*(1/2)*(1/3)
15*(1/3)
5 failed saves, times 5 turns is 25 failed saves or 12 Marines throughout a game

Stalker Bolt Rifle:

In Devastator Doctrine:
15*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(-3+1)-1)/6
10*(1/2)*(2/3)
5*(2/3)=3.333333

Outside of Devastator Doctrine :
15*(2/3)*(1/2)*(3-(-2+1)-1)/6
5*(1/2)
2.5

So a grand total throughout a game of 13 dead Marines average.

Compared now to 10 Heavy Intercessors:

(Note: for ease of math, I'm taking all of the different Heavy Bolter shots as just more shots of the equivalent Bolt Rifle)

Bolt Rifle (Tac Doctrine, Rapid Fire)
32*(2/3)*(2/3)*(3-(-2+1)-1)/6
32*(4/9)*(1/2)
16*(4/9) = 7.1111111 (3.5 dead marines)

Bolt Rifle (Rapid Fire):
32*(2/3)*(2/3)*(3-(-1+1)-1)/6
32*(4/27)=4.74 (2 dead Marines)

(7+7+3(4.5)=27.5, or 13 dead Marines per game average)

Hellstorm Bolt Rifle (no heavy bolter here because that's silly to bring):
45*(2/3)*(2/3)*(3-(0)-1)/6
30*(2/3)*(1/3)
20/3=6.666667 (3 Dead Marines)

(6.66667*5=33.33333 or 16 dead Marines per game average)

Executioner Bolt Rifle (Devastator Doctrine):
12*(2/3)*(2/3)*(3-(-3+1)-1)/6
12*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3)
8*(4/9) = 3.5555 (3 dead Marines)

Executioner Bolt Rifle:
12*(2/3)*(2/3)*(3-(-2+1)-1)/6
8(2/3)*(1/2)
8/3 = 2.6667 (2 dead Marines)

(3.555+4(2.6667) = 14.222222, or 14 dead Marines per game average)

So really, for Ranged troops killing Marines, without any added bonuses, Heavy Intercessors with Hellstorm Bolt Rifles (even with no heavy bolters) seems to be the way to go, followed by the Executioner Bolt Rifles

Well done for the math, I think I will stick with the auto variant then although the stalker is looking good to

munnster wrote:
Didn't even realise that with the salamanders change. Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So in marine Vs marine match ups do you consider the standard bolt rifle with the -1 ap to be sub par compared to the auto bolt rifle now which gains the extra shot all be it at shorter range with 0 ap as they will both be 0 ap in this match up now anyway most of the time?

For mirror matches the rapid fire Bolt Rifle is definitely worse off.

Grey Knight Paladins with Armored Resilience in Tide of Shadows are looking enormously difficult to shift.

Terminators or anything that can reach a 2+ save are the biggest winners:

Power armour (basic 3+) making saves against AP-1, -2, -3, -4 has improved 50%, 33%, 25%, 20%
Terminator armour (2+/5++) making saves against AP-1, -2, -3, -4 has improved 100%, 50%, 33%, 0%

Any chapters that can layer on additional defences, particularly cover or FNP saves will maximise the benefit from AoC - Space Wolves dreadnoughts around a librarian for their light cover aura spell will probably be quite tasty or even the Stealthy successor chapter trait.

Librarians: No longer feel so forced into Psychic Fortress. Null Zone becomes very tempting.

Eliminators: In cover have an effective 0+ save, making them really annoying to remove with shooting attacks.

Heavy Intercessors: with t5, 3w, and armor of contempt this unit is very durable for their points investment. 1cp Stratagem Unyielding in the Face of the Foe to be extra obnoxious against d1 attacks.

Successor Trait Warded gives a 5+ FNP against mortal wounds. Mortal wounds are by far the easiest way to deal a lot of damage to space marines and bypass Armor of Contempt. And I expect to see a lot of Tyranids and Thousand Sons in the near future ready to mortal-wound spam you to death. Warded provides a bit of protection against this.

On the opposite end, for offensive power, Ultras seem pretty good still.

They want to be in Tactical Doctrine as much as possible, and have the strats to do so, and their Intercessors will consistently get a decent ap buff.

Blood angels and GK are the ones who benefit the most in loyal side.

Sanguinary guard and paladins are ridiculously powerful now. They are extremely hard to shift turn1 and will charge you with high AP and high damage weapons removing all your units from the table at turn 2. Nearly imposible to avoid charges now.

For BA, i think Death Company and Sanguinary Guard make Van Vets redundant now.

Hellblasters and deathwing/relic terminators are looking pretty tasty for my DA.

I think Iron Hands Dread lists just got a big boost too. Redemptors are looking a lot more viable again.

I hate taking the other vehicles less now...Gladiator might make the table now. My vindicator definitely will.

Chaos Cultists. Ridicuous ain't it?

 DoctorDanny wrote:
Chaos Cultists. Ridicuous ain't it?

Cultists don't get AoC, as they don't have the Heretic Astartes keyword (IIRC; I don't play Chaos anymore).

they actually do have that keyword, and as such they do get it.

Still, it's not particularly impactful. Going from a 6+ save to a 6+ save that ignores 1 point of AP doesnt make a huge difference.

But I agree it is kind of silly.

They'll likely lose that keyword in the new codex

The fenrisian Wolves and cyber wolves have armour of contempt.

Ultramarines Victrix Honor Guard. They don't technically have Storm Shields, so they get to benefit. +2 save, ignoring 1AP, 3++. Yeah, they seem pretty hard to shift now. You'd have to go up to AP-2 just to get them to their Invulnerable save, and anything more than that is a waste.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Ultramarines Victrix Honor Guard. They don't technically have Storm Shields, so they get to benefit. +2 save, ignoring 1AP, 3++. Yeah, they seem pretty hard to shift now. You'd have to go up to AP-2 just to get them to their Invulnerable save, and anything more than that is a waste.

What's the wargear they DO have then? I thought it was just Storm Shields but I don't own that supplement

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Ultramarines Victrix Honor Guard. They don't technically have Storm Shields, so they get to benefit. +2 save, ignoring 1AP, 3++. Yeah, they seem pretty hard to shift now. You'd have to go up to AP-2 just to get them to their Invulnerable save, and anything more than that is a waste.

What's the wargear they DO have then? I thought it was just Storm Shields but I don't own that supplement

It's listed as an "ultima storm shield".

While similiar in name to a normal Storm Shield, it doesn't increase their Armor save (only provides 3+ invulnerable), but they do have a 2+ armor save baked in and no terminator/etc keywords.

Kaied wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Ultramarines Victrix Honor Guard. They don't technically have Storm Shields, so they get to benefit. +2 save, ignoring 1AP, 3++. Yeah, they seem pretty hard to shift now. You'd have to go up to AP-2 just to get them to their Invulnerable save, and anything more than that is a waste.

What's the wargear they DO have then? I thought it was just Storm Shields but I don't own that supplement

It's listed as an "ultima storm shield".

While similiar in name to a normal Storm Shield, it doesn't increase their Armor save (only provides 3+ invulnerable), but they do have a 2+ armor save baked in and no terminator/etc keywords.

Aaaaah gotcha. It definitely helps boost the viability of Vitrix then as a bodyguard unit. Take two units with a missile HQ in am Impulsor then?

How about Heavy Primaris Intercessors?
More resilience for the bucks.