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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






How do!

So this is kind of a redux of a previous background I started, where I offered to plunder the wealth of knowledge contained in the 40K books i own which are possibly older than you, Dear Reader. I offered (and invited other Sad Old Gits) to answer lord/background questions others might have, ideally quoting chapter and verse.

That went pretty well. But I just responded to another thread, and that made me think that “but what if those less chronologically blessed don’t know what questions to ask?”. Which has lead to this thread. Hence it being something of a redux of a previous topic.

Here, I’m largely doing away with folk asking questions about stuff they want to learn more about. Instead, this is intended to be a proper Sad Old Git froth thread. Where us SOGgies (look, that’s our collective noun now) can champion some very cool, potentially highly obscure background guff.

Now. Let’s be absolutely clear. This is also a way for me to cast the net of potential contributors as wide as possible. Because I’m not going to define what makes someone a SOGgy. If you have obscure background knowledge, I only ask that you can cite it from a GW publication. Outside online sources are welcome, provided they have their own citations.

I’ll kick off as ever, but with a quick copy/pasta on my post regarding the apparent disparity between side/small arm Las weapons, and the sheer might* of the Lascannon.

Ready?

Me, in that other thread wrote:Well. Allow me to delve deeply into my knowledge of early, and often rather ropey, 40K lore.

Before Necromunda was a twinkle in the Milkman’s Eye, came Confrontation.

Confrontation is definitely something worth looking into, as whilst never officially released as a book, it was a set of rules serialised rules in White Dwarf. And it spanned a fair few issues.

At its core, Confrontation was very much maybe a dozen models per player, and the rules were stupidly detailed. Like….mind bogglingly detailed.

That’s not to say it was a stupid rule set in case anyone takes umbrage.

It was also some of the earliest properly finnickity detailed background for weapons.

Now, this is paraphrasing, because whilst I have most if not all of the relevant WD’s, I’m moving house this weekend so many many lovely things are boxed up. But, I believe I can give the gist of it.

Essentially, it’s a matter of resistant materials, and channelling of resources.

Confrontation specified that all Las weapons operated by pretty standardised battery packs. A Las Pistol might only hold a single battery pack, and generally lack much in the way of settings. But it’s output based on a single properly charged battery pack was highly standardised.

Lasguns used the same single battery pack as a Las Pistol. But their size allowed for a greater variety of settings. Numbers entirely out my bum right now? A single pack could provide say, 40 shots on average range/RoF. The operator could ramp up different aspects, or lower them. That would affect how deadly a given trigger pull was, and drain the battery pack accordingly (low yield, single shot could allow for say 80 shots. High yield, rapid charge might produce a mere 5 shots).

The Lascannon however? If memory serves it took something like Six Battery Packs per shot. Greater power input, through a purpose built weapon, greater power in that single shot.


Once I’ve moved and excavated those WD issues I can probably give an issue, page and paragraph type citation. Or I’ll completely forget because Busy Idiot is not only an idiot, but an idiot, no wait….busy!

Right. Anyone else care to share their favourite tidbit of background? Ideally it should be obscure (such as the late 90’s, probably early 00’s WD article which explained Chaos Daemons more or less have night sight because they only perceive souls - and as slivers of their Patron’s own passion and obsession, can’t comprehend why us mortals might not enjoy what they offer)

   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






In no particular order:
That one time the skaven phoned the eldar.
Sadly LotD existing since they got pushed into a corner.
That Deathwing originally were Native American themed.
Oh and Malice.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Moar details pls kthx!

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





One of my favourite eras in 40k history is the Age of Apostasy - go figure... Sisters player, right?

The more recent dexes focus a lot on Vandire because he is most closely connected to the Sisters. After his death, modern dexes discus the Thorian Reformation, and then it feels like the Age of Apostasy ends.

It doesn't though.

The period from Vandire's rise to his eventual defeat is referred to as the Reign of Blood... But there is far more to the Age of Apostasy.

I recently discovered Cardinal Bucharis, who would have been a contemporary of Vandire, but who outlived him. A decade or so after Sebastion Thor assumed the mantle of Ecclesiarch, Bucharis went mad on the planet Gathalamor and began another era within the Age of Apostasy known as the Plague of Unbelief.

Vandire had shattered the High Lords of Terra and left a power vacuum, leaving the Imperium somewhat ill equipped to deal with rapidly materializing threats. Bucharis managed to sway and corrupt key members of the Navy and Guard, and it allowed him to carve out an empire on the galactic west.

The Plague of Unbelief was not included in the 8th or 9th dexes, and I think it was even omitted from the hallowed 3rd ed Witch Hunter book. I could be wrong, but I think the 2nd ed dex is the last gaming book to include this information.

I believe that the Age of Apostasy IS the Horus Heresy equivalent for Sisters players. During this era, we meet the Daughters of the Emperor, who are a martial order of warrior women who are very skilled in battle; they are aware of the Imperial Cult, and it is probable (though never explicitly stated) that their martial style even at this early stage involved Faith and battlefield "Miracles." However, their weapons were primitive enough that they were tricked into believing that a refractor field was Magic. Certainly they used firearms, and likely power or chainswords... But I'm not so sure they wore power armour at the time.

Vandire sees their potential, and I think he is probably the one who grants them access to superior technology, at which point they become the Brides of the Emperor.

Then, of course, the Brides have their fateful encounter with the Custodes who bring them before the Emperor and Voila! Alicia Dominica takes Vandire's head, and shortly thereafter, under the new Ecclesiarch Sebastion Thor, they become the Adepta Sororitas.

So if you play in this era, you get to play the Matron Saints of the six orders, first as the primitive Daughters, then as the more technologically capable but heretical Brides, and finally, the Adepta Sororitas.

During the Age of Apostasy, neither the Order of the Sacred Rose nor the Bloody Rose existed- they were found two and a half millennia after Vandire's death. Their patron Saints Arabella and Mina respectively, however, WERE alive during the Reign of Blood.

Arabella's body was never found, so theoretically, anything is possible with her- for all we know, GW could drop a Daemon Prince who is a corrupted Arabella... Or release her as a Living Saint along the lines of the immortal Celestine.

Katherine is the only one of the Matron Saints to have been granted Sainthood during her lifetime; even Alicia Dominica, regarded by many as the Matron of the Sororitas as a whole, was not made a Saint until after her Martyrdom.

In Katherine's lifetime, her order was known as the Fiery Heart- they changed their name to the Order of Our Martyred Lady after Katherine was martyred by the Witch Cult of Mnestteus... And wow, do I want to know more about them; because they succeeded at killing Katherine, I don't think there's enough evidence to conclusively state that they were 100% defeated, and I'm toying with the idea if trying to bring them back in some my own Crusades... Like maybe they've been growing underground for five millennia, biding their time.

It's also worth noting that even after changing their name, the OoOML did not wear the exact livery with which we are familiar in the era Indomitus- their robes were changed to red after one of the battles for Armageddon in which a massive force of Sisters held out long enough against a horde of Orks to allow Imperial reinforcements to arrive, but at the loss of almost all of the Sisters themselves.

And finally, we know that Katherine, before her death at the hands of the Witch Cult, buried her power armour and the Ardent Blade beneath a chapel on the shrine world of Sanctus Lys, where it would later be discovered by Celestine. However, Katherine was known as the shield-bearer for Alicia Dominica, a reference to the hallowed Praesidium Protectiva- a shield said to contain shards of the Emperor's armour. This item HAS been recovered by the Imperium- it is currently carried by one of the models in the Triumph of Saint Katherine, and it appeared as a piece of wargear in the Witch Hunter dex. But it was not left on Sanctus Lys with the other relics, and no mention is made of it being present during Katherine's Martyrdom.

It is, in fact, the Central item around which I have built my entire Crusade campaign.

Last but not least, the Age of Apostasy is also responsible for the formation of the Ordo Hereticus, as well as the Thorian faction within the Inquisition as a whole- the era is absolutely jam packed with Inquisitors, Cardinals loyal and Apostate and all manner of interesting Imperial Agents.

I want GW to explore this era via their offerings on WH+ - Battle Report was supposed to include Historical Battles; tales of the Saints could be excellent fodder for Hammer and Bolter, and the Reign of Blood could be a whole series.



   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Not sure how "forgotten" it is, but Lady Malys has had a crystaline heart that is strongly hinted to belong to Cegorach for a while now, and uh. It seems like that should probably be leading somewhere.

Similarly, Kheradruakh's skull collection was always really tantalizing. I wish they'd either do something interesting with the Aelindrach expansion that happened in Fall of Biel-Tan, or just retcon the skull collection to still be a WIP waiting to bring about something cool.

Oh. And the weirdness that is ymgarl genestealers. Why won't the hive fleets take them to prom? What the heck did they do? Does the hivefleet *not* want instantaneous shape-shifting awesomeness?

I feel like I may have made this up, but I could have sworn that there was old lore about how the dark reaper aspect warriors were inspired by the Nightbringer. Something along the lines of the Nightbringer perma-killing eldar (they used to reincarnate after death) and thus scarring the concept of perma-death into their collective psyche.

Oh, and back when Eldrad was dead before the retcon, one of his students whose name was basically Cassandra swore that Eldrad was going to come back if only someone were to collect all the spirit stones he'd copied his soul into. But no one believed her. Spirit stones are known as the "tears of Isha." Cassandra. Tears. No one believing her. I'm a sucker for an unsubtle mythology reference.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




The conversation from the inside cover of the Inquisitor rulebook:




The inquisition deciding "...nah, we dobt actually want the emperor back, thinking about it..."

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





As I have a bunch of 1st and 2nd edition Space Marines stuff, I'm going to make them into the Eyes of the Emperor chapter.

They're from issue 47 of Challenge Magazine, as a Loyalist chapter that watched over the Eye of Terror. Since they were made before the Primarchs were all established, they had their own who ended up joining Horus.

I like the idea of trying to merge them in with today's fluff: imagine a newly discovered sector with its own Space Marine chapter already there. They seem to already have the Codex Astartes, have already been acting as a mix of Space Marine Chapter and Inquisition, have widespread access to Mk VI plate and other equipment from the Heresy era, and claim that they kicked out their Primarch for joining with Horus. ...except that neither they nor their Primarch are in any imperial records. Would raise some questions now wouldn't it?
   
Made in gb
Basecoated Black





England

I always liked the nod to the fact that Doctor Who has shown up in the 40k universe, as seen in one of the plot generator scenarios in the Rogue Trader rulebook.

Raid & Capture.

   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





Honestly, the entirety of gorkamorka Mutie raiders. They’re just very interesting to me, sort of a blend of standard imperials and tusken raiders. I always found games against them pretty fun, they had some neat mechanics.
The whole way they never actually told you that their weapons were imperial ones modified, but made it apparent through descriptions was also great. Never was 100 percent sure but it’s relatively clear.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
I always liked the nod to the fact that Doctor Who has shown up in the 40k universe, as seen in one of the plot generator scenarios in the Rogue Trader rulebook.

Raid & Capture.

Time to call in the Ordo Chronos!


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Squishy Oil Squig






Well I guess Goff Rockerz aren't quite forgotten but the original full fluff on Ork Musik was entertaining.

From Waaargh The Orks:


Apparently Ork meks are really into EDM. Now we know why Kraftwerk is spelled that way.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/29 23:02:24


...you make expensive ugliness...how do you do it?...let me guess....
 
   
Made in us
Giggling Nurgling





 Backspacehacker wrote:
That Deathwing originally were Native American themed.


Oh, man, that dredged up some memories. I remember that one. Wasn't it a short story published with a bunch of others? Absolutely forget the name of the book, but I remember the general story and the name of the librarian, Two Heads Talking. Also hinted that Space Marines could have kids and families, though was very fast and loose with Space Marine aging.

Like, the dude's grandfather left to become a Space Marine by going to the sacred place at a certain time, then the MC decided he would do the same. Left his fiancé, went to the place, and it wound up that his grandfather was the marine that showed up. Even tried to dissuade the MC, but eventually allowed him to try.

Fast forward like... a couple generations, the now-old MC and his buddies come back and find the planet not just modernized, but has the beginnings of a genestealer infestation. Couple references, including MC's ex-fiancé's descendant, but the dudes save the day and just... stay. Rebuild, reorient their people away from modernization and machines to go back to tribal living and such, each Marine taking a group to lead and become chieftain over if I remember correctly. Eventually the DA show up wondering where the hell a squad of elite termies disappeared to and find MC just old as can be who then promptly tells them the whole story. Was a great read, just cannot for the life of me remember what the book or story was called. Probably because I read the thing when I was like... 12.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Ultramarines are a 3rd Founding Chapter
Leman Russ is just a normal human
Necrons are just Androids built by Chaos Corrupted Squats
Jetbikes for everyone
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Remember when Leman Russ was just regular dude who named his squad 'Spacewolves' (yup, no space)? Who realistically shown what would happen if you follow idiotic SW habit of not wearing helmets?

Spoiler:

He even had a mini, too, looking surprisingly 'primaris' in lack of wolfwolfwolfyiff nonsense encrusting armour:



Then you had Calgar in OG beaky suit and his pet/pen pal Tyrannosaurus:



   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Rainbow Warriors being one of the original Legions instead of just being an Ultramarines successor chapter. It would have been awesome to have had a Meso American - themed Legion. Also, I loved how Genestealers and other xenos factions seemed to be more susceptible to Chaos corruption back in older lore.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Terminator and dreadnought armour couldn’t be made any more and the existing suits of armour were relics from the heresy. The ceramite was too thick to cut through and reverse engineer without destroying it.
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium." -Codex Angels of Death, Page 8, Space Marine Power Armour

also

Power Armour also weighs over 250lbs.

The non-corvus helmet was a spinoff from Terminator Armour.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The Rainbow Warriors being one of the original Legions instead of just being an Ultramarines successor chapter. It would have been awesome to have had a Meso American - themed Legion.


The Mesoamerican thing for them is all fan-created. They are (officially) nothing more than a name that is reference to a Greenpeace ship of the same name, in line with much of the 80s satire nudged into early 40k.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 PappyNurgle wrote:
Wasn't it a short story published with a bunch of others?
Yep - it's called Deathwing, was by Bryan Ansell and William King, and was published in an anthology also called Deathwing (in 1990). It was later adapted into a graphic novel called "The tale of Two-Heads Talking".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/30 08:31:54


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






beast_gts wrote:
 PappyNurgle wrote:
Wasn't it a short story published with a bunch of others?
Yep - it's called Deathwing, was by Bryan Ansell and William King, and was published in an anthology also called Deathwing (in 1990). It was later adapted into a graphic novel called "The tale of Two-Heads Talking".


Was also serialised in the Space Hulk expansion cunningly named Deathwing.

I must add that to my collection some time!

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
 PappyNurgle wrote:
Wasn't it a short story published with a bunch of others?
Yep - it's called Deathwing, was by Bryan Ansell and William King, and was published in an anthology also called Deathwing (in 1990). It was later adapted into a graphic novel called "The tale of Two-Heads Talking".


Was also serialised in the Space Hulk expansion cunningly named Deathwing.

I must add that to my collection some time!


I still have a bunch of the plastic GSC Hybrids and maybe one of the librarians too- though it's possible those got given away. I forget whether these models were with the Deathwing expansion or the Genestealer expansion.

I have all the booklets from Deathwing I think, and I remember liking the story.
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





The Sons of Antaeus - the culmination of work by the Adeptus Mechanicus to enhance the space marine geneseed, physically larger and more durable than other astartes and descended from the Ultramarines, the Sons of Antaeus would go on to lay the foundations of the primaris project be completely forgotten by GW.


 Grimtuff wrote:
The Mesoamerican thing for them is all fan-created. They are (officially) nothing more than a name that is reference to a Greenpeace ship of the same name, in line with much of the 80s satire nudged into early 40k.
A greenpeace marine having a hole blown in the side of them by 'french special forces' (the origin of the fluer-de-lys iconography for the soriritas).
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




A.T. wrote:
The Sons of Antaeus - the culmination of work by the Adeptus Mechanicus to enhance the space marine geneseed, physically larger and more durable than other astartes and descended from the Ultramarines, the Sons of Antaeus would go on to lay the foundations of the primaris project be completely forgotten by GW.


The whole Cursed Founding being somehow linked to the Primaris programme makes sense and feels like a missed opportunity.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

WD 93, the intro to the new game of 40K, has a short story featuring the Space Wolves and this made me laugh:

'No one spoke...because the battle brothers were accustomed to silence. Silence saturated the halls of their fortress monastery on the planet Lucan. It's stones remained ignorant of levity or chatter. It's worn and ancient flagstones remembering only the contemplative tread of soft leather'.

Not quite so tranquil on party planet Fenris eh?

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The idea of Doombreed being Genghis Khan.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 PaddyMick wrote:
WD 93, the intro to the new game of 40K, has a short story featuring the Space Wolves and this made me laugh:

'No one spoke...because the battle brothers were accustomed to silence. Silence saturated the halls of their fortress monastery on the planet Lucan. It's stones remained ignorant of levity or chatter. It's worn and ancient flagstones remembering only the contemplative tread of soft leather'.

Not quite so tranquil on party planet Fenris eh?


Clearly post-hangover good behaviour?

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






All things Necron Pariah. Also just xenos being more dangerous in general.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






There was a short story in an old copy of Inferno, which may have since been amongst the Print to Order.

It dealt with a stranded Imperial, on a planet of seeming Xenos. It’s a high Grav world, and the natives have four legs to allow them to move about.

Only….they’re not Xenos. They’re genhanced human settlers from The Golden Age, desperate to contact other human worlds. Of course, if they’re ever found, they’d be wiped out for deviating too far from human norm…

It’s been ages since I read it, and I’m definitely underselling it, as it was a really cool story.

As was the Lone Space Wolf, hunting a lone Carnifex in the aftermath of a defeated Hive Fleet.

   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Pax Imperialis from Warhammer Monthly 36 - an AdMech expedition unseal a DAoT AI which is then beaten back by Arbites.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I think a general concept I would raise is how much of the older lore is just bad.

Now before I get jumped on, I mean no disrespect to pieces being brought up here. In fact, I think the oft-mentioned perception of GW's writing being better 'back in the day' is heavily reinforced by such references. People tend to recall and bring up the stuff that was good, but to actually go back and read through whole tomes today... oh boy.

I guess what I'm saying is that while a lot of what will be in this thread really is good stuff, people shouldn't get the wrong idea. If that makes sense?



Anyways, to contribute content to the thread, some interesting bits I recall;

-The Emperor's origin being fully explained in detail. In short, a bunch of psykers in prehistoric times recognized a need for humanity to be protected from Chaos and fused themselves into a super-soul that was reborn as the Emperor. I've always felt it is/was a good origin for Him as it reinforces the idea of the Emperor being human but also not--the exceptionally gifted deciding they knew the best way to serve humanity is rather fitting. That said, I also prefer the modern version of simply not explaining his origin, as it makes Him come across as more mysterious, unknowable, and mythical. I draw a thread to how many lament that the Horus Heresy has lost some of its soul in being written out so intricately.

-WHFB being just one world within the Warhammer 40k galaxy, albeit separated off by layers of magic. I'm glad they ditched that concept and gave each setting it's own distinct universe with only a few threads connecting them via Warp shenanigans.

-Lesser Chaos Gods, these guys I miss. They get a few easter eggs here and there but I always preferred the Warp being somewhat like a world contested between four superpowers; while they unquestionably dominate the scene there is still wildlife, and there are still smaller factions surviving in the cracks.

-Undivided Daemons/Daemon Princes, in a similar vein I miss these existing as well as a general element of the big four not being everything there is to Chaos. The good news is they are coming back! I'm interested to see how this aspect of the fluff is managed and if it marks a return to GWs original sentiment.

-Nuance to the Chaos Gods. They used to be quite explicitly not entirely evil, nowadays any sort of 'good' aspect is generally labelled as deception or just a justification on the way to further corruption. While the old fluff did not always handle this aspect very well, I do miss the narrative element that the Chaos gods very much represent positive manifestations of emotion as well with those aspects simply being a strong secondary rather than nonexistent. Nurgle is perhaps the only Chaos god that has really maintained this, while Khorne is certainly the worst in how he's been flanderized.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/05 19:21:04


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
 
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