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So in reading through "Taitor General" by Abnett, it occurs to me I know very little about how Chaos command structure works.

For instance Urloc Gour (Sp?) is a very powerful sorcerer but still a base huiman. He commands:Summoned daemons, minor warp entities (Giant slug woman thing) and Chaos Marines.

I thought Chaos Marines only answered to their chapter or their god? Same with Daemons, they only answer to their gods or the person who bound them? Then there is the human soldier who is constantly having talks with the Faeguth (Sp?) and he's some sort of former Imperial Guard soldier, but sworn to the Blood Pact, but not really because he hasn't been branded? Even the daemons show him deference, which makes me think he's far more than he seems (Still only 6 chapters in).

But then you have the giant (Im guessing Chaos Marine) in chaos power armor, that follows the commands of the Demon thing. But not anyone else?

I don't understand how even exceedingly powerful base humans can control or have control of Chaos Marine companies, (Mentioned that he has them in his war fleets) entire hosts of daemons, and members of the Dark Eldar.

Not saying it's impossible, but is there a good reference on how Chaos hierarchies work? Are there base humans at the highest levels of their legions? It seems odd that this crusade wasn't given to a more capable member of a chaos marine chapter, I guess is what I'm saying. Unless this guy is basically some form of Super psyker ala Magnus? Even then why wasn't he made into a chaos Marine or a demon? Surely there is a point where base humanity is a detractor, and needs to be "upgraded" by chaos?

Oops, meant for Background, self reporting!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So in reading through "Taitor General" by Abnett, it occurs to me I know very little about how Chaos command structure works.

For instance Urloc Gour (Sp?) is a very powerful sorcerer but still a base huiman. He commands:Summoned daemons, minor warp entities (Giant slug woman thing) and Chaos Marines.

I thought Chaos Marines only answered to their chapter or their god? Same with Daemons, they only answer to their gods or the person who bound them? Then there is the human soldier who is constantly having talks with the Faeguth (Sp?) and he's some sort of former Imperial Guard soldier, but sworn to the Blood Pact, but not really because he hasn't been branded? Even the daemons show him deference, which makes me think he's far more than he seems (Still only 6 chapters in).

But then you have the giant (Im guessing Chaos Marine) in chaos power armor, that follows the commands of the Demon thing. But not anyone else?

I don't understand how even exceedingly powerful base humans can control or have control of Chaos Marine companies, (Mentioned that he has them in his war fleets) entire hosts of daemons, and members of the Dark Eldar.

Not saying it's impossible, but is there a good reference on how Chaos hierarchies work? Are there base humans at the highest levels of their legions? It seems odd that this crusade wasn't given to a more capable member of a chaos marine chapter, I guess is what I'm saying. Unless this guy is basically some form of Super psyker ala Magnus? Even then why wasn't he made into a chaos Marine or a demon? Surely there is a point where base humanity is a detractor, and needs to be "upgraded" by chaos?

Oops, meant for Background, self reporting!

short answer, as i understand it, is "it depends".

most of chaos follows its own, rather chaotic power structure, which is very ad-hoc and personality driven.

while your right that marines are generally on top, sometimes mortal followers can become direct conduits of the chaos gods or greater deamons, either literally or in a figurative sense, which tends to trump pre-existing rank structures.

Also, while they chaos marines might only answer to thier own legion, thier is nothing stopping the legion or the gods deciding to willingly subordinate a warband into a mortal followers plan, particularly if the mortal in question has a large force and is providing the majority of the warriors with the marines as leg-breakers or strike teams.

Finish the book first because I can't explain what you are seeing until you're done.

 Gert wrote:
Finish the book first because I can't explain what you are seeing until you're done.

yhea, that might be a good idea, as i havent even read it so any plot relevant reasons would escape me.

I think chaos warbands can be structured in anyway shape or form. I think leadership goes hand in hand with power and profit so I doubt that the CSM would follow a human sourcerer unless they were very powerful and any coup by the CSM would prove fatal. Or they are being paid very well.

I think it’s one of those factions where you can make it up however you like

Over the years GW's focus has been more on CSM Chaos followers and Champions. However in the past there was more mention made of normal human followers and Champions. In the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, it is mentioned that CSM often become Chapmions and favored because of their Marine constitutions, strength, willpower and lifespans. In essence, they start out with an advantage already over a baseline human, who would have to either gain such through Chaos gifts, other material means, or find a path to power that does not need those, such as sorcery or having a skill that is essential (such as command of a warship and skills in space warfare over what the CSM around them have).

The advantages of CSM is often why they rise to the top of any warband, and the strongest among them becomes the leader. Their willpower also means they don't mutate as quickly and survive it a bit better than normal humans. They may have a sorcerer who may or may not be a CSM themselves, though if they are not, there can be issues of the CSM holding the human sorcerer in contempt. Such an example is seen in the novel The Gate of Bones where the CSM Word Bearer Dark Apostle hates the sorcerer titled the Hand of Abaddon, who seems to be a degenerating physically frail weakling, but is forced to work with him, because Abaddon forces him to and because he knows the sorcerer could kill him.

Claiming to receive messages from the gods is also a point open to dispute. Dreams and interpretations of events as portents can be seen as communication with the Chaos gods or daemons...or they may just be the coincidental ramblings of their mind. Even if a daemon directly tells them something, it can be unclear whether it is really the will of their god. The daemon could be lying, or self-serving in an attempt to raise itself in their god's favor.

Chaos warband leaders do things that either serve themselves or think will win them the approval of their god. If they do something and nothing happens (i.e. no reward), they have no way of really knowing whether they did something that actually pleased their god but who chose to not reward, or whether it was a displeasing offering. Likewise when they mutate, within the universe, it is unclear at times whether it is approval or disapproval. In the old original Realms of Chaos mechanics, players could see that it was generally not a good thing despite any mutation benefits, because it was that much closer to becoming Chaos Spawn. However within the universe, characters would not be able to clearly tell between Chaos Gifts and Chaos mutations because that is really a OOC rules mechanic. For example, having your head mutate to resemble a Bloodthirster's a gift or a mutation? Ruleswise it is a Gift and therefore "good" if the goal is to become a Daemon Prince. Having your head mutate to resemble a goat headed Beastman? Ruleswise that is a Mutation and bad because you were closer to being Spawned.

Yeah, so finished the book, even more questions. Abnett has a bad habit of not tying up loose ends in his final scenes. So the final chapter literally has Gaunt do his thing with the bad guy, and then BLAM, nothing, they are all chatting together while Kerth patches them up. They were literally being attacked by a host of elite infantry, where did they go? The mansion/palace thing had dozens of "Lifewards" which I think is just literal demonshosts? Unless their are cloven hooved Dark Eldar or something under the direct control of Chaos? Also, I know this is likely going to be in the next book, but wasn't the literal #2 of all Chaos in the entire Crusade "Sekk" there inspecting the new army, with a host of Chaos Marines? Where did they go?

It's frustrating that Abnett makes these things seem important, and then literally drops them all in the last chapter after the very silly scene with the Traitor. Unless I missed something when Brostin did his whole "Say hello to mr. Yellow" bit and torched all the Chaos Space Marines, all the elite Chaos troops, and the "other" traitor guy, the one who's in charge of the Elite Sekk Army? They all just literally disappear with no further mention. One page they are butchering the entire resistance, the next page Gaunt has killed a life ward, and they are having their wounds tended to in the court yard. Did my recording miss a chapter? I feel like something got badly missed here.

I think you need to have another read of the book. A lot of the stuff you are asking about isn't as complicated as you believe and I'm not sure how but you seem to miss bits that answer some of your questions.
That being said I will do my best to answer your questions.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, so finished the book, even more questions. Abnett has a bad habit of not tying up loose ends in his final scenes. So the final chapter literally has Gaunt do his thing with the bad guy, and then BLAM, nothing, they are all chatting together while Kerth patches them up. They were literally being attacked by a host of elite infantry, where did they go? The mansion/palace thing had dozens of "Lifewards" which I think is just literal demonshosts? Unless their are cloven hooved Dark Eldar or something under the direct control of Chaos? Also, I know this is likely going to be in the next book, but wasn't the literal #2 of all Chaos in the entire Crusade "Sekk" there inspecting the new army, with a host of Chaos Marines? Where did they go?

It's frustrating that Abnett makes these things seem important, and then literally drops them all in the last chapter after the very silly scene with the Traitor. Unless I missed something when Brostin did his whole "Say hello to mr. Yellow" bit and torched all the Chaos Space Marines, all the elite Chaos troops, and the "other" traitor guy, the one who's in charge of the Elite Sekk Army? They all just literally disappear with no further mention. One page they are butchering the entire resistance, the next page Gaunt has killed a life ward, and they are having their wounds tended to in the court yard. Did my recording miss a chapter? I feel like something got badly missed here.

Yea, Abnett definitely isn't one of my favorite authors. He lives in his own weird little world. Without spoiling too much, there was a book he wrote where a 10 man squad of Space Marines were slaughtering Chaos Marines, I think they got over 300 if I recall correctly. My brother told me about this after he read the book and we agreed it was stupid af. Yea, the difference between heretic and loyalist is strong here I see. Reminds me of that ridiculous Ultramarine movie.

Can we just not mention that horrid excuse for bolter porn...

Racerguy180 wrote:
Can we just not mention that horrid excuse for bolter porn...

If you're responding to me, I would mostly agree. But I wouldn't mind some really good bolter porn. I wanna see 50 chaos Marines and space Marines each, unloading bolt shell after bolt shell into each other, ya know? See some chaos marine with a wild daemonic looking heavy bolter chuggin nonstop, his spent shell casings poppin out slow mo, just like real bolter porn should be.

I will forever remember the AMV of Death Stars "Last Ammunition" taken from that film. It was the only good thing that came of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_nEi2SjrOk

That being said, I have always hated how Abnett creates his own lore while butchering the current lore. For instance, Brag's always got an "Autocannon" in most situations, but Abnett, not understanding the difference, has a scene where he tears an Assault Cannon off a vehicle mount and starts using it from the hip. Something even an Asartes outside of Terminator armor would find difficult.

Then he has issues with lore regarding "bolt weapons" To him, there seems no difference between auto-guns and boltguns. And he messes that up in several situations. I loved his Inquisitor books, he can invent lore there to his hearts content. "A lone Psyker and a Demonhost taking down a fully activated Chaos Warlord Titan" comes to mind.

I'm not saying I don't like his writing style, but I'll take a Cain book over a Gaunt Book anyday.

I love how Mitchell pokes fun at Abnett and Gaunt in one book, paraphasing here:

"No one ever shouts crap like "Do you want to live forever?" because that's stupid."

Lord Tarkin wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Can we just not mention that horrid excuse for bolter porn...

If you're responding to me, I would mostly agree. But I wouldn't mind some really good bolter porn. I wanna see 50 chaos Marines and space Marines each, unloading bolt shell after bolt shell into each other, ya know? See some chaos marine with a wild daemonic looking heavy bolter chuggin nonstop, his spent shell casings poppin out slow mo, just like real bolter porn should be.

I'm all for bolter-porn. Just not THAT bolter-porn.

Gimme some hard-core bolterpornhub.com bolter-porn, but art house and Rob Zombie like.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I love how Mitchell pokes fun at Abnett and Gaunt in one book, paraphasing here:

"No one ever shouts crap like "Do you want to live forever?" because that's stupid."

I always laugh at that one because it's exactly what they say in Starship Troopers (intentionally or not on Mitchell's part). Didn't realize it was also in the Gaunt books haha. That makes it even better.

Yeah, Sandy does a good job at lambasting all the dumb heroics of other action stories. It would be funny if in a Gaunt book it mentioned him reading one of Cain's adventures.

The Chaos forces are part of a Chaos aligned real space empire called the Consanguinity. Although they appear to tilt toward Knorne, I believe they are officially pledged to Chaos Undivided. The Sabbat worlds campaign also takes place in M41 late 700s, approximately two hundred years before the "current" setting.

Keep in mind the consanguinity has nothing to do with the Eye of Terror, Abaddon, the Black Legion, and all the stuff that is front and center with mainline chaos lore. As a matter of fact, I think that Chaos Space Marines characters in the Gaunts' Ghost series are almost entirely nonexistent. They're just evil chaos worshiping people as far as I can tell.