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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





...So this is very much a rant but more around GW's marketing tactics rather than the specific game metrics itself.

In short it goes like this. In July 2020, 9th edition was launched. It is now May 2022, the world has been through a Pandemic, Russia invaded Ukraine, Boris has been caught out for hosting parties at 10 Downing Street and Trump lost an election. In short, a very, very eventful time.

Since 9th edition was launched however, GW has refused to release rules for certain armies. That's an entire game system for some armies who have remained underwhelming because GW prioritised the spectacle to drive sales, rather than actually making a fair, balance and COMPLETE game for the players to use their products on for which they paid a lot of money.

In what other business would anyone tolerate this? "Hi we have released IOS 15, we're going to very slowly release this over the next 2 years despite the fact we can release it immediately" - If this happened, the Apple users would be kicking off and business would be lost - yet GW actually flourish by making their own game really crap for some players, and overpowered for others.

We stand now, almost 2 years later with no updated rules for Imperial Guard (no, not Astra Militarum), Chaos Marines (ffs, the primary opponent in lore), Chaos Daemons, or either of the Knight factions. Yes, yes some are "coming soon" but at what point is "2 years later" deemed acceptable? In the mean time, how many goddamn supplements are they going to release in the interim? Supplements designed specifically to trick you into buying another book by purposefully holding back your primary codex - which is a waste of money because they nerf you 2 weeks later (after baiting you to buy some overpriced plastic so you can be good).

Now don't get me wrong, GW have always been upfront about this. They are not a games company, they are a manufacturer and from a business perspective, this shithousery has worked very well for them. As such, we all need to ask ourselves the question. Knowing that this is what GW do, and knowing that GW thrive on this, who is to blame? GW for being open and honest about being a bunch of money-grabbing dicks? Or us, for financially rewarding them for it?

Either way, 40k is crap as a result. A constant swing of balance failures designed to drive up sales. A bloat of books and rules to encourage the sale of books before they just hit the reset button, move to 10th edition and start all over again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 23:15:00


 
   
Made in de
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I think you are greatly underestimating the torture Apple users will go through in order to get that SWEET FOMO hit.

I don't know where you live, but in the USA, especially California and NY, people camp outside, literally for days, and gak in buckets, just to be the first ones through the door and buy the new Apple devices.

If you are comparing GW to anything, compare it to the US Healthcare system. We COULD save your life with this medication that the rest of the world basically gives away, but we are going to instead charge you up to 900USD per dose. And we are calling your pregnancy check ups "Electives" so we don't have to pay for them.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Capitalistic systems need market competition to work properly, every company without realistic competition goes down this path.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I'm not entirely sure you understand both Capitalism and the GW release schedule. I'll take a few years between a Codex rather than 3 whole editions of the game.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Gert wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand both Capitalism and the GW release schedule. I'll take a few years between a Codex rather than 3 whole editions of the game.


I can't think of any book that missed more than 1 edition without an update or release.

And if we get to October this year Imperial Guard will be tied for longest they've had to wait for a codex ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 23:54:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If GW grew out of the boomer ass "technology bad" mentality we'd get quicker updates.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Sumilidon wrote:
...So this is very much a rant but more around GW's marketing tactics rather than the specific game metrics itself.

In short it goes like this. In July 2020, 9th edition was launched. It is now May 2022, the world has been through a Pandemic, Russia invaded Ukraine, Boris has been caught out for hosting parties at 10 Downing Street and Trump lost an election. In short, a very, very eventful time.


So some combo of two negatives, a wash, & 1 positive....


Sumilidon wrote:
Since 9th edition was launched however, GW has refused to release rules for certain armies. That's an entire game system for some armies who have remained underwhelming because GW prioritised the spectacle to drive sales, rather than actually making a fair, balance and COMPLETE game for the players to use their products on for which they paid a lot of money.

In what other business would anyone tolerate this? "Hi we have released IOS 15, we're going to very slowly release this over the next 2 years despite the fact we can release it immediately" - If this happened, the Apple users would be kicking off and business would be lost - yet GW actually flourish by making their own game really crap for some players, and overpowered for others.

We stand now, almost 2 years later with no updated rules for Imperial Guard (no, not Astra Militarum), Chaos Marines (ffs, the primary opponent in lore), Chaos Daemons, or either of the Knight factions. Yes, yes some are "coming soon" but at what point is "2 years later" deemed acceptable? In the mean time, how many goddamn supplements are they going to release in the interim? Supplements designed specifically to trick you into buying another book by purposefully holding back your primary codex - which is a waste of money because they nerf you 2 weeks later (after baiting you to buy some overpriced plastic so you can be good).


Both Knight factions came out last week.
Btw, this 2 year release span isn't really anything new. Since 2e GW has always taken several years to roll out the complete Codex line up of an edition. Likewise with the expansion books. They've been at that since RT....

Sumilidon wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, GW have always been upfront about this. They are not a games company, they are a manufacturer and from a business perspective, this shithousery has worked very well for them. As such, we all need to ask ourselves the question. Knowing that this is what GW do, and knowing that GW thrive on this, who is to blame? GW for being open and honest about being a bunch of money-grabbing dicks? Or us, for financially rewarding them for it?


Hey, I thought you said this was about GW. Now you want to pin the blame on us.... Well off. If 40k isn't your thing? Then quietly go away & play whatever.


Sumilidon wrote:
Either way, 40k is crap as a result. A constant swing of balance failures designed to drive up sales. A bloat of books and rules to encourage the sale of books before they just hit the reset button, move to 10th edition and start all over again.


OMG, you've discovered their secret. Congrats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 00:00:00


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of any book that missed more than 1 edition without an update or release.

Orks had a 4th Ed Codex from January 2008 until June 2014. Sisters had Witch Hunters in April 2004, got a WD Codex in August/September 2011 then got a weird PDF book in October 2013, and finally got a proper Codex again in 2019.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
If GW grew out of the boomer ass "technology bad" mentality we'd get quicker updates.

Changing to paperless wouldn't make a difference because Codexes are released alongside new kits because then they sell better. GW sold Ebook/PDF versions of Codexes until 8th and it didn't make releases come faster.

Also OP, if you hate it just stop. You aren't forced to keep doing 40k.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 00:04:19


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:

Orks had a 4th Ed Codex from January 2008 until June 2014. Sisters had Witch Hunters in April 2004, got a WD Codex in August/September 2011 then got a weird PDF book in October 2013, and finally got a proper Codex again in 2019.


GSC also sat out 3-6th and Squats sat out 3-8.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





For what it's worth, Apple could totally get away with that...
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Philadelphia

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand both Capitalism and the GW release schedule. I'll take a few years between a Codex rather than 3 whole editions of the game.


I can't think of any book that missed more than 1 edition without an update or release.

And if we get to October this year Imperial Guard will be tied for longest they've had to wait for a codex ever.


Dark Eldar say “Hi!”

Third edition codex in 1998
Fifth edition codex in 2010

12 years between codexes. They also skipped 6th and went from 5th to 7th edition (but that was only a 4 year wait)…

Legio Suturvora 2000 points (painted)
30k Word Bearers 2000 points (in progress)
Daemonhunters 1000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013

"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
For what it's worth, Apple could totally get away with that...

Maybe for a smaller and smaller subset of the potential customer base.
But not when Samsung, LG & every other non-apple would gladly fill that hole...

I fething hate Apple but as much as I may dislike GW as a company, they do offer excellent miniatures(just not at reasonable prices). Whereas the rotten fruit doesn't exactly offer anything redeeming.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





United States

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand both Capitalism and the GW release schedule. I'll take a few years between a Codex rather than 3 whole editions of the game.


I can't think of any book that missed more than 1 edition without an update or release.

And if we get to October this year Imperial Guard will be tied for longest they've had to wait for a codex ever.


I had to wait TEN years for a new Dark Eldar codex/update/release.

You kids don't know how much better GW is today. You all should be on your hands and knees kissing the feet of GW now that you literally get new model released every week across countless systems and board games.

Also. Squats.

Since getting back into the GW hobby last year (after leaving it back in 5th edition), I still can't believe how fast they pump products out. My head and wallet are spinning.

GW today is amazing.

- edit -

I see Cruentus already pointed this out. I stand corrected. 12 years.

Seriously. I want you to seriously imagine playing whatever army you are right now, and not getting anything new until 2034. Think about that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 03:55:26


Ayn Rand "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality" 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Coming from Magic the Gathering, honestly at this point its the player bases fault for not simply taking over and making our own rules
   
Made in gb
Stubborn White Lion




Kya_Vess wrote:
Coming from Magic the Gathering, honestly at this point its the player bases fault for not simply taking over and making our own rules


People have been doing this since RT era, there was a time when GW encouraged it and openly admitted to an extent they were releasing a starter package to inspire creativity. I will concede with the prices for rules now it would be borderline offensive to try pull this no matter how much i personally enjoy playing around with house rules etc.

The cult of officialdom does grow much stronger among players though judging by forums.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 04:50:55


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Sumilidon wrote:


We stand now, almost 2 years later with no updated rules for Imperial Guard (no, not Astra Militarum), Chaos Marines (ffs, the primary opponent in lore), Chaos Daemons, or either of the Knight factions. Yes, yes some are "coming soon" but at what point is "2 years later" deemed acceptable? In the mean time, how many goddamn supplements are they going to release in the interim? Supplements designed specifically to trick you into buying another book by purposefully holding back your primary codex - which is a waste of money because they nerf you 2 weeks later (after baiting you to buy some overpriced plastic so you can be good).


I agree about the supplements, in fact I'd love GW to avoid them entirely, but the codex release cycle is already super fast. A new codex every 2-3 years is totally unacceptable to me, and that's why I stick with finding rules from the russian site. If codexes last 5-6 years I'd probably buy those that I need for my armies, but at this rate certainly no.

And the comparison with Apple is terrible. Apple might be super fast in releasing stuff but they make you pay 10x of their products' actual values. GW is a charity in comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 06:47:59


 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

The people pointing out that it was actually worse in the past are correct. Waiting for years for your codex update was absolutely normal for anyone who played NPC factions in older editions of 40K.
Nowadays NPC factions are still second string, obviously, but the update schedule is much faster and there are more choices for NPC factions to play, and the power balance shifts often so sometimes you might get your six months in the sun if you're into that.

That said, it's good to have high standards. GW could do simultaneous updates for all factions, publishing rules digitally. It would just require resourcing rules properly. So I think being annoyed that they don't do that is fine. The screwed up rules release system is a major reason why I've gradually moved away from GW games.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I do feel it is relevant to point out that while we get rules faster, the quality of those rules hasn't really increased.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Malicious Mandrake




you said... "rather than the specific game metrics itself."

Do you enjoy the GAME?
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand both Capitalism and the GW release schedule. I'll take a few years between a Codex rather than 3 whole editions of the game.


I can't think of any book that missed more than 1 edition without an update or release.

And if we get to October this year Imperial Guard will be tied for longest they've had to wait for a codex ever.

Sisters of Battle comes to mind.
Dark Eldar and Necrons both had to wait 10+ years for an update. Though technically it was just one edition, as they were lacking only the 4th ed codex.
I don't think Imperial guard had a 4th ed book either? Though they had a 3.5 release, so I don't think they had to wait as long as DE and Crons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 08:40:40


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yeah, so aside from armies that were outright removed (GSC and Squats), no one has missed more than 1 edition (4th, for example, for DE and IG. 5th for Orks. Etc.).

It may have been xxxxx years between codexes, but it was also xxxxx years between editions. The game just churns faster now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 09:25:14


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sumilidon wrote:


GW prioritised the spectacle to drive sales, rather than actually making a fair, balance and COMPLETE game for the players to use their products on for which they paid a lot of money
.


Imbalance sells. And has done for 30 off years. It's 'manufactured discontent'.

The absolute last thing gw wants to do (or any company who makes ttg's for that matter...) is to have a 'complete' game. That is a dead game. And a broke company. Companies in this area make money by new 'waves' of stuff - models, rulebooks etc. The new stuff is where they make money.

So of course there are going to be deliberately gaps (so you can grow the game with the next wave of new shinies) and faults (so they can sell you the fix when they 'change' (note i use change specifically, not improve) the gane.

Sumilidon wrote:


Knowing that this is what GW do, and knowing that GW thrive on this, who is to blame? GW for being open and honest about being a bunch of money-grabbing dicks? Or us, for financially rewarding them for it?
.


Both - theyre different sides of the exact same coin. The 'cult of officialdom' is real; a lot of gamers are extremely conservative and will not deviate from orthodoxy of 'how' to play - 'official' rules, even if terrible will always be preferred to 'good rules'. Gw could crap in a box and the orthodoxy-focused will just accept it.

The alternative is homebrewing and personal ownership of games, so not chasing the churn or imbalance which for me is very rewarding, applying local limits where appropriate and accomodating the other guy, but its a lot of work and requires a lot of emotional maturity- and even then it's not without pitfalls. And not everyone wants to put the work in either. I personally think that view is short sighted but can understand why folks just want something to work out of the box

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

"Ownership" of a game like this requires agreement over what is owned, because you always play with different people.

I've moved around a lot during my life, and so I don't have a stable group any more. So any group I'm coming to already has their established norms.

In the end, I decided to go my own way and see if I can find people to play with while providing everything for them. It works...but it's also a lot of effort! I can understand why people want "official" when playing with others that they don't know well.

I also think it's part of the progression in the hobby to start to tinker with things as you get older and care less about what the various corporations are saying or doing. But you exclude yourself from a large player pool as soon as you don't accept "official" any more, it's not without costs.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, so aside from armies that were outright removed (GSC and Squats), no one has missed more than 1 edition (4th, for example, for DE and IG. 5th for Orks. Etc.).

It may have been xxxxx years between codexes, but it was also xxxxx years between editions. The game just churns faster now.

Unit you were just given multiple examples of Codexes that skipped multiple editions, you can't just say "well those don't count" because you were wrong.
You're even double wrong because Orks skipped 5th and 6th before getting a 7th Ed Codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 10:19:41


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, so aside from armies that were outright removed (GSC and Squats), no one has missed more than 1 edition (4th, for example, for DE and IG. 5th for Orks. Etc.).

It may have been xxxxx years between codexes, but it was also xxxxx years between editions. The game just churns faster now.


Orks missed two. 4th edition codex was in play for the entire 5th and 6th. Also at the very beginning of 7th, until GW finally relaesed a new codex. That 4th edition codex actually saw 4 editions, although two of them just for a short period.

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


It may have been xxxxx years between codexes, but it was also xxxxx years between editions. The game just churns faster now.

Which, given that GW charges ~$60 USD for each codex, is not a good thing.
Updates are faster, but that means the codex you just bought has even less value now.

Furthermore, I don't think editions are a good metric to use given that time is not measured by warhammer editions.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 10:55:19


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

The whole "Imbalance sells" I don't think actually works as well as some suppose it does. Sure there are those who chop and change armies to stay at the head of the meta. From what I've seen a lot of those people tend to keep their costs low so they are often trading in secondhand not first hand products. So its not money GW ever actually sees.

The majority of people do not change armies on a whim. They might want too, but with the time for building and painting, most people tend to operate few armies even down to just one or two. So imbalance doesn't "sell" to them when their core armies aren't doing well and they aren't encouraged to expand them.




Also the idea of shifting to paperless to speed up releases might not work as well as many thing. Warmachine tried that and its not gone well. I think its important to realise that you can only speed things up so far with a physical game where players have to do the numerical operations themselves. Too fast and people forget and get confused and frustrated with the stats changes; plus many specifically want to play a physical game with physical components not be slaved to the computer (and the app that crashes/tablet that runs out of power/phone that has a tiny screen etc...).

Faster is good up to a point.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Da Boss wrote:
"Ownership" of a game like this requires agreement over what is owned, because you always play with different people.


Agreed - You do, but with likeminded people in the same group I've often found consensus is straight forward.

I think it's worth it - others maybe not.

 Da Boss wrote:


I've moved around a lot during my life, and so I don't have a stable group any more. So any group I'm coming to already has their established norms.


Same circumstances here, actually. I think I left where you ended up though.

 Da Boss wrote:

In the end, I decided to go my own way and see if I can find people to play with while providing everything for them. It works...but it's also a lot of effort! I can understand why people want "official" when playing with others that they don't know well.


agreed!

 Da Boss wrote:


I also think it's part of the progression in the hobby to start to tinker with things as you get older and care less about what the various corporations are saying or doing. But you exclude yourself from a large player pool as soon as you don't accept "official" any more, it's not without costs.


Agreed, but to be fair I don't see that as too much of a cost. I'd rather play with a smaller likeminded pool of players than a very large mixed group where its often lowest common denominator orthodoxy or no game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 10:37:29


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Gert wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, so aside from armies that were outright removed (GSC and Squats), no one has missed more than 1 edition (4th, for example, for DE and IG. 5th for Orks. Etc.).

It may have been xxxxx years between codexes, but it was also xxxxx years between editions. The game just churns faster now.

Unit you were just given multiple examples of Codexes that skipped multiple editions, you can't just say "well those don't count" because you were wrong.
You're even double wrong because Orks skipped 5th and 6th before getting a 7th Ed Codex.


I was given ONE example (Orks). You can't just cite armies that were removed from the game and say "see? The pace of slow releases means they didn't get books"

No, it wasn't the pace of slow releases. It was that they were outright removed from the game.

It would be like me claiming that not every army in 9th was updated because Renegades and Heretics didn't get a codex.
Blackie wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, so aside from armies that were outright removed (GSC and Squats), no one has missed more than 1 edition (4th, for example, for DE and IG. 5th for Orks. Etc.).

It may have been xxxxx years between codexes, but it was also xxxxx years between editions. The game just churns faster now.


Orks missed two. 4th edition codex was in play for the entire 5th and 6th. Also at the very beginning of 7th, until GW finally relaesed a new codex. That 4th edition codex actually saw 4 editions, although two of them just for a short period.


Yes, that's fair. A single codex in the history of 40k went through 2 editions (one of which was the shortest-lived edition in 40k history).

So one codex skipped 2 Editions. Still isn't nearly as doom and gloom as people were making things out to be (like the "3 whole editions" in the post I quoted originally).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 11:16:16


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




3rd Ed dark eldar, 3rd Ed space wolves, da etc.

Tau as well, I think?

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
 
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