Switch Theme:

Grenades, Either make them actually useful, or delete them from the game.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ro
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Has anyone ever opted for, instead of shooting, moving closer and throwing Frag Grenades? Krak Sorta have a slightly better value, but the grenade system is currently worthless. Most all shooting is generally always the better option.

So what reasonable changes could be made to grenades? As every faction has their own special types, I'm just going to focus for now on the lowly Guard issue Frag and Krak.

Change Profiles:
Current Frag:

6"Grenade D6 S3 AP0 D1 Blast(If you choose to throw, only one model of that unit may throw, unless you do the strat)

Solution:

Frag: 10" Grenade D6, S4 AP1 D1 Ignores Cover,AND Indirect Fire AND Auto Wounds Infantry on a 5+ to hit (No strat to throw, if you are being charged, all models can throw)

Most Guardsmen don't carry Krak, so that's not an issue, but it does reveal the issue. In the majority of circumstances, there is ZERO reason to use them. I feel this is thematic, relevant, and completely viable.

Grenades should wound Infantry easily. They should be able to be thrown into areas that the user can't see. Blast is a dumb mechanic who cares. This is relevant because it would completely force chargers to re-think the charge.

Also it would finally make it possible for IG squads to take the grenade launcher.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Why would a frag grenade ignore cover and auto-wound when a battlecannon doesn't?
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Why does taking a shield suddenly cause you to have less contempt?
How can contempt stop a lascannon in the first place?
How does Transhumanism stop a AT/Titan weapon from simply vaporising the infantry it hits?

I mean you're not wrong, but at this stage...

Data author for Battlescribe
Found a bug? Join, ask, report:
https://discord.gg/pMXqCqWJRE 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






I would actually go back to an older version instead of trying to make grenades lethal weapons. I would just give small benefits for having them when someone charges or when you go into melee or the like. That's much simpler.

   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Not unlike a lot of other mechanics in 40k, grenades in general seem like a solution in search of a problem.

It seems like they should be based around a suppression mechanic that no one on the 40k development team can be bothered writing.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why would a frag grenade ignore cover and auto-wound when a battlecannon doesn't?
.

Cause the Guardsman rolled a 6 to hit?


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





I see them being thrown often enough. Lasgun isn't that big loss over throwing grenade. It's not like entire unit stops shooting.

Question for op. Why would guardsmen bother with lasgun with those grenade rules? If you can't figure reason it shows your proposal sucks.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






tneva82 wrote:
I see them being thrown often enough. Lasgun isn't that big loss over throwing grenade. It's not like entire unit stops shooting.

Question for op. Why would guardsmen bother with lasgun with those grenade rules? If you can't figure reason it shows your proposal sucks.

Because range is a thing i guess
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why would a frag grenade ignore cover and auto-wound when a battlecannon doesn't?


I think the answer would be "reasons".....

Same excuse currently in play for guardsmen auto-wounding on shooting hits of 6, ignoring the new out-of LoS shooting penalties & not having to pay for weapon upgrades.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I regularly find myself hurling stikk bombs or plague grenades at units, especially if they have 6 or more models.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Krak is easy. Just allow any model equipped with Krak grenades to make 1 attack with a Krak grenade at their base WS against [VEHICLES] in melee. Oh, and let Guardsmen have Krak grenades again.
   
Made in ro
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Well, the next step after this would be to give it to the SoB, and the Marines. Maybe Orks?

It's not like there aren't already auto-wounding grenades. Psych out Grenades, and Melta Bombs all deal MWs, Assault Launchers Strategem does MWs.

All I'm saying a a the fart that is the frag grenade currently is useless to Guard. It should be stronger than it is, or just removed. 6" d6 S3 AP0 d1 isn't helping anyone.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, the next step after this would be to give it to the SoB, and the Marines. Maybe Orks?

It's not like there aren't already auto-wounding grenades. Psych out Grenades, and Melta Bombs all deal MWs, Assault Launchers Strategem does MWs.

All I'm saying a a the fart that is the frag grenade currently is useless to Guard. It should be stronger than it is, or just removed. 6" d6 S3 AP0 d1 isn't helping anyone.


It's a better lasgun when in close proximity of another unit (like when you move you guardsmen up to grab an objective). Thats their purpose.

In truth, the game would benefit from having more grenade types IMO. And make all of them ignore LoS

Smoke grenades : drop a template ( spooky, i know ) of zero visibility
Flash grenades : -1 to hit on the enemy hit
frag : same as now
krak : same as now
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

Wouldn't another easy fix just be to remove the whole "you can either shoot or throw grenades but not both"? I mean, you can still keep the only-one-grenade thing too, but this would give you just a little extra oomph if you move a squad close enough. It would be a sorta bonus attack for being in close range but not melee (which isn't exactly how real grenades are used, but 40k doesn't much resemble real combat anyway).

Am I missing something that would make this totally broken?
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






counterpoint, grenades are a niche use weapon that works in the right circumstances (in my opinion anyway). It is one of those weapons that has a place. I mean this in as noncondensing way as possible but its also one of those things where a experienced/higher skill player knows when to moved towards a unit to use a grenade vs moving away and keep distance or is using the grenade worth losing a move block etc.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Smoke grenades : drop a template ( spooky, i know ) of zero visibility
Flash grenades : -1 to hit on the enemy hit
frag : same as now
krak : same as now


Dropping a smoke grenade into a template that grants obscuring would be pretty cool.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Smoke grenades : drop a template ( spooky, i know ) of zero visibility
Flash grenades : -1 to hit on the enemy hit
frag : same as now
krak : same as now


Dropping a smoke grenade into a template that grants obscuring would be pretty cool.


Finally. Something to use Blast Templates for again.

Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Older editions used grenades much better. Both 2nd edition with all the finnicky rules, and 3-6th with the benefits grenades gave in CC. GW has failed with grenades these days.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Smoke grenades : drop a template ( spooky, i know ) of zero visibility
Flash grenades : -1 to hit on the enemy hit
frag : same as now
krak : same as now


Dropping a smoke grenade into a template that grants obscuring would be pretty cool.


extend it to smokescreens too, would make more sense than just getting -1 to hit
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
extend it to smokescreens too, would make more sense than just getting -1 to hit


If they did that you'd have to remove it from being a reactive to a once per game that forgoes shooting again, I think.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
extend it to smokescreens too, would make more sense than just getting -1 to hit


If they did that you'd have to remove it from being a reactive to a once per game that forgoes shooting again, I think.


it would actually be a good use of stratagems for once.

Once per game you can throw smokes at the end of your opponent's movement phase

AND

You can forego your shooting to instead shoot a smoke.

Give the game more defensive options, and give a reason to bring vehicles again


   
Made in ro
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Can you imagine the caterwailing that would commence if suddenly Eldar or Tau got smoke grenades?

I don't think Guard's biggest problem is being hit, it's actually hitting something hard enough to hurt it. I would rather see smoke grenades turned into a "marker light" like, everything within 6" of this target now is +1 to hit for all las weapons, non-compatable with their 6's to wound.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can you imagine the caterwailing that would commence if suddenly Eldar or Tau got smoke grenades?

I don't think Guard's biggest problem is being hit, it's actually hitting something hard enough to hurt it. I would rather see smoke grenades turned into a "marker light" like, everything within 6" of this target now is +1 to hit for all las weapons, non-compatable with their 6's to wound.


what the feth are you on lol? Smokes makes you hit better?

And i legit don't care about people crying online, the game is too lethal, adding smokes that drop obscuring templates would help

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 15:37:47


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




After reading an ancient Grey Knight book, I would be all for grenades being back to what they were. -1T, not sure if cumulative from multiple units and characters, could be fun. Same as making opposing units hit themselfs.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 VladimirHerzog wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can you imagine the caterwailing that would commence if suddenly Eldar or Tau got smoke grenades?

I don't think Guard's biggest problem is being hit, it's actually hitting something hard enough to hurt it. I would rather see smoke grenades turned into a "marker light" like, everything within 6" of this target now is +1 to hit for all las weapons, non-compatable with their 6's to wound.


what the feth are you on lol? Smokes makes you hit better?

And i legit don't care about people crying online, the game is too lethal, adding smokes that drop obscuring templates would help


I think he was more thinking of those colored smoke flares that are used to mark targets for artillery/air strikes in movies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 15:49:27


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




I love krakk grenades and use them all the time.


 
   
Made in ro
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 VladimirHerzog wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can you imagine the caterwailing that would commence if suddenly Eldar or Tau got smoke grenades?

I don't think Guard's biggest problem is being hit, it's actually hitting something hard enough to hurt it. I would rather see smoke grenades turned into a "marker light" like, everything within 6" of this target now is +1 to hit for all las weapons, non-compatable with their 6's to wound.


what the feth are you on lol? Smokes makes you hit better?

And i legit don't care about people crying online, the game is too lethal, adding smokes that drop obscuring templates would help


I don't know who kicked your puppy, but you need to be kicked in the butt. I was talking about MARKING A TARGET. Do you truly fear Guardsman shooting? Because I thought you were one of the "Good" players. I guess not.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can you imagine the caterwailing that would commence if suddenly Eldar or Tau got smoke grenades?

I don't think Guard's biggest problem is being hit, it's actually hitting something hard enough to hurt it. I would rather see smoke grenades turned into a "marker light" like, everything within 6" of this target now is +1 to hit for all las weapons, non-compatable with their 6's to wound.


what the feth are you on lol? Smokes makes you hit better?

And i legit don't care about people crying online, the game is too lethal, adding smokes that drop obscuring templates would help


I don't know who kicked your puppy, but you need to be kicked in the butt. I was talking about MARKING A TARGET. Do you truly fear Guardsman shooting? Because I thought you were one of the "Good" players. I guess not.


No, they're right. Being stood in smoke wouldn't "mark" anything. If you want that give them a 1cp strat for heavy stubbers: tracer fire. Done.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






While more durability is beneficial to the game, the GW implementation of Smoke launchers on vehicles always rubbed me the wrong way. How would a smoke screen that only covers the vehicle make it harder to hit? Just aim at the smoke cloud. If it projected even a little bit of an aura, that would make more sense to me, allowing other units to hide in it as well, making it seem more like a cloud.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 17:30:31


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


I don't know who kicked your puppy, but you need to be kicked in the butt. I was talking about MARKING A TARGET. Do you truly fear Guardsman shooting? Because I thought you were one of the "Good" players. I guess not.


I would rather see smoke grenades turned into a "marker light" like, everything within 6" of this target now is +1 to hit for all las weapons, non-compatable with their 6's to wound.


this you?

If you wanted to propose a new mechanic that marks stuff (like marker lights or marker fire), don't say you want to turn smokes into that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thadin wrote:
While more durability is beneficial to the game, the GW implementation of Smoke launchers on vehicles always rubbed me the wrong way. How would a smoke screen that only covers the vehicle make it harder to hit? Just aim at the smoke cloud. If it projected even a little bit of an aura, that would make more sense to me, allowing other units to hide in it as well, making it seem more like a cloud.


it should really just be a template that you place on the ground that provides obscuring or dense cover (if obscuring is too OP). But that would require GW to add templates back in the game

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 17:38:20


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: