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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH


Greetings everyone,

I know that the title to this thread is confusing, but I'm deep in the midst of a cosmic horror kick and I started thinking the inevitable: "What would 40k look like with this?"

So I thought I would open up a strictly FOR FUN discussion of:

If you were going to make a proxy eldrich-horror / cosmic-horror / Lovecraftian-cult army... what army would you use as the base?

Now, I'm totally not going to do this or anything (I have enough unassembled and unpainted models right now to make Cthulu weep!) but I thought it would be an interesting thought experiment to see where people would stand. To my mind, a few possibilities immediately come to mind, and a few weirder ones also seem like fun possibilities. To open things up, I'll get a few of those out of the way:

1) Chaos Demons: This one is probably the most obvious choice. Honestly, chaos demons share a fairly similar cosmic-horror vibe already and things like chaos spawn look like something out of the mythos without any real conversion or anything. The real problems here would be that they don't have an updated codex, they have a fairly small model range that would work for things like big scary beasties, and weirdly not as much magic/psykers as might be appropriate.

2) Thousand Sons: This one, to my mind, is a little closer to the mark. I'm not sure what you would do with the standard rubrics, but the cultists fit right in at least and there are both plenty of psykers for a magic theme and also quite a few big machines that would work as proxy beasties. Their style of play is also somewhat fiddly, with a lot of tricks and whatnot, so thematically they might fit pretty well. I think the real crux here would be figuring out a good lovecraftian analog for the rubrics...

3) Death Guard: Another great option really. Not as much magic, but plenty of beasties, insane durability, and the plague mechanic might make a nice stand in for spreading cosmic madness.

4) Chaos marines: will probably be the best option when their new codex drops, but for right now... yeah, probably pass on them.

5) Tyranids: Okay, this one may seem a bit out of left field, but give it a chance. If you were doing a cosmic horror tyranid force you would definitely not be going "cultists" and instead probably be leaning full on into big scary god-like beasts. You could totally use things like Zoanthropes and Maleceptors to add in an even greater level of psy / magic to the table, and the shadow-in-the-warp would work pretty well as a sort of lovecraftian influence thing. It may seem strange, but I think this one might be one of the strongest at the moment. The only downside is that tyranids are super saturated right now, so it wouldn't exactly be high on the uniqueness scale.

6) Genestealer Cults: If the proper 'nids are the big beasties themselves, then THIS is your cultists! If I were doing this one I would lean away from the mechanical things and concentrate on swarms of thematic cultists and such. One of the top options in my opinion.

7) Adeptus Sororitas: Okay, now things are getting proper weird! At first this may seem like it totally won't fit the theme, but with a little creativity, you could totally see how a group of religious fanatics praying to a false-emperor (King in Yellow, perhaps?) works wonderfully. Things like miracle die would be great for representing the influence of the old ones, and the mortifiers/repentence engines would be absolutely wonderful for proxies of eldritch horrors there to aid their faithful. Not a lot of truly big beasties here though, and much like the t-sons the power armor sisters are a little hard to make sense of. You could always simply have them be a corrupted convent of normal sororitas I suppose...

8) Any Space Marines: Getting into the truly weird, you could just go space-marines! Your standard marines and their various infantry would be hard to make sense of- even harder than the sororitas/t-sons, but if you could figure out a way to make that work you have LOTS of other fun options. Dreads of various sizes can become beasties very easily. Depending on the chapter you might have a lot of psykers (Grey-Knights or Blood-Angels in particular). Of course, you also have access to one of the largest unit pools in the game! Anything from crafty cultists (scouts?) to giant monsters (Leviathan Dreads) would work! It would, of course, be something of a stretch and, honestly, I doubt very many people would want to play you as probably your whole army would be about as far from What-you-see-is-what-you-get as could be... but it could work.

Okay, that's probably enough silly words from me. Tell me, in your opinion, what army do you think would make the best lovecraftian / eldrich horror proxy force and why?

Remember: this is just for FUN! (and thanks for reading!)
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I enjoy my Nids for the cosmic horror vibe. I love that they are a superorganism, basically a galactic-wide conciousness hell bent on consuming everything. They're good with claws and tentacles if you want to go that aesthetic route.

But my favorite cosmic-horror in 40k would actually be the old Necrons, back when the C'tan were their overlords and before they were given "personality". It isn't really big tentacle monsters, but the idea of shutting off sentient life from the Warp, and endlessly consuming the living for their life energy was excellent stuff.

Edit: Chaos Spawn are great models though!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 22:57:35


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Old Necrons were great cosmic horror, it's a real pity they backtracked on that. They could have given them personality while keeping the cosmic horror vibe.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Hecaton wrote:
Old Necrons were great cosmic horror, it's a real pity they backtracked on that. They could have given them personality while keeping the cosmic horror vibe.


This was the exact reason I used to play Necrons. They were basically the Lovecraft army. Ancient beings under the sway of abstract god-entities beyond understanding. It's a shame they got turned into grumpy old pokemon trainers in space.


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

While I definitely agree that Necrons used to be a great cosmic-horror faction (before they became Tomb Kings . . . in SPAAAAAACE), I actually think Genestealer Cults might be the best fit.

Don't get me wrong - Necrons certainly used to be terrifying in their own right. The fact that they would appear out of nowhere, attack, and then vanish without a trace - often leaving any surviving inhabitants with no idea of their purpose - definitely evoked many cosmic horror vibes.

However, I'd say that GSCs are a lot closer to the way cults tend to work in Lovecraft. For one, while they obviously have rules for all-out battles, they primarily work by slow and insidious subversion of populations. They're more a creeping corruption that gradually gains control of planets by means of infiltration, assassination and the like, rather than by dominance of firepower.

They also have mutants, which are a strong theme in many Lovecraftian works and settings. Those with connections to cosmic entities tend to develop nightmarish mutations, not wholly unlike the various levels of Abberants seen in GSCs. Indeed, GSC even has 'levels' of mutation, where the lowest-ranking members are ordinary, human cultists, but then the higher ranking members are increasingly mutated/corrupted, all the way up to the Primarch who has no trace of humanity in his appearance.

There is also the general theme of people worshipping powers they can't hope to properly understand (in this case the Tyranids/Hive Mind). You could make arguments about the upper echelons of GSCs knowing *exactly* what they're doing, but this definitely holds true for many of the lower-ranking ones. Certainly they fit the theme of a doomsday cult, where their victory will lead only to death, horror and destruction (likely including their own members, given how Tyranids operate).

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I literally use this theme for my Chaos daemons, though I think it depends on the game your playing.

Here is my AoS lore page for my Daemons (as far as I know a similar website does not exist for 40k: https://www.thegreatweave.com/carcosa/ )

It's also very easy in 30k, because the Daemon rules deliberately make them horribly incomprehensible multi-formed terrors from beyond space and time.

It's hardest in 40k to catch that vibe, lol. Daemons feel like second rate Tyranids without many distinguishing rules. That mat change when they get their dex.

Still, for me, it's Chaos Daemons hands down.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Unit1126PLL wrote:


It's also very easy in 30k, because the Daemon rules deliberately make them horribly incomprehensible multi-formed terrors from beyond space and time.

So how are daemons different in 30k, I have to ask?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


It's also very easy in 30k, because the Daemon rules deliberately make them horribly incomprehensible multi-formed terrors from beyond space and time.

So how are daemons different in 30k, I have to ask?


They're mega different.

1) Deployment and everything is utterly alien to the game system. You place warp portals on the map, and come out of them as if out of reserves. This means an enemy army is usually confronting an empty space before suddenly being set upon by daemons from another world (at least narratively. Obviously for balance reasons the other player knows your warp portal locations)

2) The army list is made up of generic daemons that are then super customizable across unit types with something like 26 different upgrades that allow for anything from multi-limbed horrors with pseudopod feet to gigantic behemoth siegebeasts that extrude tendrils of tank-shattering power and whatnot.

3) The player chooses from one of 6 archetypes for their army rules (like having 6 different SM legions). They are the Big Four (each chaos god has an archetype; for example, Slaanesh is called the Lurid Onslaught), Malal (Mirror of Hatred, or anti-daemon daemons) and Undivided (Primordial Annihilators). These affect the upgrades that are available - for example, Tzeench's archetype (I think it's called Gibbering Madness) lets every unit be a psyker (with the old 7th edition brotherhood of psykers rules if it's multi-model) while Lurid Onslaught gives every unit Hit and Run (so they feel very fast and maneuverable on the tabletop since they basically have Fall Back in a world where no one else does) and access to an ability that forces enemy models to take leadership tests when in melee with them because they can be seduced. It doesn't sound useful (Attacking leadership is usually bad) but when you have to take five or six tests per phase across an army as the front lines clash (in addition to any normally inflicted tests), some units usually fall.

4) Most importantly: victory conditions. While 40k has generic "objectives" and even Crusade has fairly generic objectives, 30k really goes into innovative territory with its Daemons. They have a rule that essentially lets them choose to ignore conventional military logic and pursue their own inscrutable objectives. So whilst the enemy may be trying to seize a strategically important hill or seize a relic of a forgotten age, the Daemons are pursuing an utterly orthogonal objective. The victory conditions you pursue are based on your choice of archetype - so, for example, the Slaanesh one gets a VP for every leadership test the enemy fails - you can fluff this equally as seduction, or as causing madness and mental discord. With the way leadership works in melee (and the way objectives in 30k work in general) this is a viable strategy for success, usually, and encourages melee-focused (due to making enemy units break which is easiest in assault) hit-and-run (to get away from fearless or stubborn melee deathstars) style play that focuses on taking advantage of the enemy's weaker troops. This strikes me as considerably more Slaaneshi of a playstyle than "put Keeper on Guilliman, break Guilliman, profit" that you see in 40k.

5) The units FEEL like Lovecraftian horrors. Unit upgrades aside, the units themselves are strong in weird and unconventional ways, and their strength decreases over the length of the game as the tides of the warp recede and the enemy learns more about what they're fighting. Lesser Daemons have more attacks and wounds and start with a higher toughness and strength than Marines, making a single Daemonette more than a match for a pair of Space Marines in melee. But they have no guns, meaning the Marines can win a fight at range, and they have terrible saves (5+ invulnerable like normal), which means that a hail of bullets takes them down. This feels rather Lovecraftian, where a deployed and prepared army in an open field would probably do well against some of the monsters that are described, but an unprepared force beset out of the blue by horrors from the beyond are likely to fail. Think of encountering a daemonette (or a Deep One) charging across a World War 1 battlefield towards your machine gun, vice leaping out of a dark alley in the middle of the night. The army rules again facilitate this feeling with the warp portals,, where the Daemons can literally wink into existence in (narratively unexpected) locations and set upon the foe with barely any time (1 turn) to react. And, as mentioned, the daemons get weaker as the game goes on, meaning that the surviving enemy is learning more about these strange creatures and how to break them - a Space Marine that survives for 4 turns against a Daemonette will find that he is stronger and tougher than the Daemon...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/22 15:56:24


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

OMG... that post of yours did more for making me want to play 30k than anything I have ever read.

That's pretty much EXACTLY what I would want demons to be in 40k!!

...so, ah, are there any rumors that the next demon codex is going the 30k route? Can we START that rumor please? Wow. Mind blown :-)
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Wow, Daemons sound amazing in 30k.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




I'll third the enthusiasm for 30k. I hope the HH line maintains this...
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yes, the Daemons of the Ruinstorm army list is pretty fun in 30k and is sort of my model of how to do a Daemon codex in 40k as well.

I can answer more specific questions, if anyone wants, but I think they were pretty close with that list.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





leerm02 wrote:
OMG... that post of yours did more for making me want to play 30k than anything I have ever read.

That's pretty much EXACTLY what I would want demons to be in 40k!!

They sound nice but you have to keep in mind 30K scene tends towards more casual gameplay and they tend to build fluffy, not tryhard lists. It's very much possible to break 30K to pieces (see invisible Lorgar/Magnus winning games on their own, quad phosphex rain, or infamous Custode primarch snuffer, aka their middling HQ that could be tooled until it was capable of beating even strongest primarch, or two of the weaker ones, with ease). If you put 30K daemon book in 40K, mere hours later usual neckbeard WAAAC types would produce lists so broken only Tau with their magical god-deleting scrap iron launcher would stand a chance - then would make it even more broken by the fact 30K daemons book doesn't really tell you what minis to use so you can extra munchkin and use tiniest models from daemon range for triple cheese ease of hiding/deployment. And you can't even rely on community to police itself - see all the crying and whining CSM in leaks are mere SM+ now, with minmax slightly toned down and lore accuracy being encouraged, not SM+++ fluff breaking fanfiction fantasies that autowin by exclusively spamming whatever is most broken at the moment. Or any Tau/Eldar list in past four editions. QED.

Ditto with getting buff at the start of the game then nerf towards it end, it sounds nice on paper until you realize there are multiple such mechanics in 40K right now (most prominent example funnily enough being Tau) and they are always cherrypicked to table enemy army in the first three turns then laugh at any penalties that come once the game is already decided or even over. You could in theory rein this in by nerfing all the strongest points of book so WAAACers don't break it, but then you pretty much ruin it for casual players and end up with current daemon situation. So, yeah, it only sounds good because community sometimes has ounce of common sense, instead of smugly piling grey tide of most broken netlist cheese that doesn't resemble setting armies at all on table like a big minority of 40K players...
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


It's also very easy in 30k, because the Daemon rules deliberately make them horribly incomprehensible multi-formed terrors from beyond space and time.

So how are daemons different in 30k, I have to ask?


They're mega different.

. . .

Awesome! Thanks very much for the breakdown

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Irbis wrote:
Ditto with getting buff at the start of the game then nerf towards it end, it sounds nice on paper until you realize there are multiple such mechanics in 40K right now (most prominent example funnily enough being Tau) and they are always cherrypicked to table enemy army in the first three turns then laugh at any penalties that come once the game is already decided or even over. You could in theory rein this in by nerfing all the strongest points of book so WAAACers don't break it, but then you pretty much ruin it for casual players and end up with current daemon situation. So, yeah, it only sounds good because community sometimes has ounce of common sense, instead of smugly piling grey tide of most broken netlist cheese that doesn't resemble setting armies at all on table like a big minority of 40K players...


That's silly. Well-written and forthright rules would make it so the difference between "WAAACERS" and causal players wouldn't be as large, because the rules would actually do what they're intended to do.
   
Made in jp
Fixture of Dakka





Japan

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Spoiler:

Squidbot;
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Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Hello Kitty off course
Spoiler:


Hmmm... Makes me want to run it as a C'tan, go old school Necron/deep ones.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Irbis wrote:
It's very much possible to break 30K to pieces (see invisible Lorgar/Magnus winning games on their own


HH doesn't have Invisibility. What game were you playing?

Anyways, Unit's pretty spot-on about Chaos on 30K. More than anything else, I love how it makes Chaos feel chaotic. It's not just four sub-armies of a half-dozen recognizable phenotypes each; it's a diverse mass of weirdness with unpredictable and changing capabilities and downright inscrutable goals.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





All over the GSC.

The feeder tendril heads are Cthulu in plastic, and they convert up easily for proxied hybrids.

I think you could run a GCS detachment WITH a tyranid detachment and pick the most Lovecraftian units from each.

Why not have Cultists AND their Gods?
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

PenitentJake wrote:
All over the GSC.

The feeder tendril heads are Cthulu in plastic, and they convert up easily for proxied hybrids.

I think you could run a GCS detachment WITH a tyranid detachment and pick the most Lovecraftian units from each.

Why not have Cultists AND their Gods?


Ok.
Wow.
Now, I love me my oldcrons and I'll throw tombworlds of Scarabs (60ish bases, as technically the two scarab metal pack was 2 individual Scarabs, thus 1 per base) before my Star God's, but wow.

The image of GSC, Rippers, Malanthropes, as well as the obvious ones, maybe just big gribblies, like walking gods next to the cult members, model a fexen upright, or as upright as you can as Old One Eye.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
 
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