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TTL and Stranglehold are gone.
Banners doesn't require a clear objective.
Interrogate changes, but I don't understand it yet.

Starting CP is 6 now. You gain 1 cp per player turn (2 per battle round)
Warlord Traits and Relics must now be bought with a new requisition stratagem - you no longer get a free one of each with your warlord, but must pay 1cp for each ( OUCH ).

Most secondaries have changed, most categories only have 2 secondaries, except for the psychic secondary pack. Some have been folded into others (titan hunters into Bring it Down).

No new missions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Warlord Traits and Relics must now be bought with a new requisition stratagem - you no longer get a free one of each with your warlord, but must pay 1cp for each ( OUCH )

That seems like an over-correction, so, pretty on-brand for GW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No new missions.

So what the hell's in the book. Why would you buy it?

Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.

Ironically I believe that Orkz will be the winners of this change.

Yes, they will be able to get less relics and detachments with only 6 CP, but they are also the faction which cares less about stratagems in a world which is now going to start at 0 CP on most lists.

Spoletta wrote:
Ironically I believe that Orkz will be the winners of this change.

Yes, they will be able to get less relics and detachments with only 6 CP, but they are also the faction which cares less about stratagems in a world which is now going to start at 0 CP on most lists.

No offense but this really highlights your ignorance of how Orks currently work. Not when pretty much all Orks lists burn through 6-7 CP on multiple detachments so we can have relics/warlord traits and additional Warbosses. Now its handicapping us from bringing our main heavy hitters.

With these changes I hope they change the CP refund for detechments to just refund the cost for any detechment your Warlord is in, otherwise White scars (and others) beeing played as they are described are screwed

Well basic white scars are basic foot troops. Pre-primaris standard white scar most numerous was tac squad in rhino. All bike lists wasn't fluffy ws force but waac's min-maxing.

White Scars are a Codex Chapter. The idea that they're an all biker army isn't a reality.

That's sound so much like absolute crap. Well, another scam book I will not buy. Without point changes not depending on the GT book anymore, there is no need for every 6 months a new mission book with even more bad ideas.

Spoletta wrote:
Ironically I believe that Orkz will be the winners of this change.

Yes, they will be able to get less relics and detachments with only 6 CP, but they are also the faction which cares less about stratagems in a world which is now going to start at 0 CP on most lists.

We generally don't care much for our stratagems, true. However we are hugely reliant on multiple detachments for warbosses, and heavily reliant on relics and WL traits.

With starting CP being halved and me having to pay for my initial relic and trait, my list starts with a whopping 0CP. My list only has two detachments and thus two warbosses, and one of those bosses doesn't have a trait because I want the CP for the few strats I do actually use. In an ideal world I would have three detachments for three bosses and they would all be tooled up. My list is already not ideal for these reasons.

I would say it's very realistic that most competitive Ork lists now are illegal, just by virtue of not having the CP to exist.

I'm calling Orks going to the very bottom of the meta withing two weeks of the Nephilim release.

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
That's sound so much like absolute crap. Well, another scam book I will not buy. Without point changes not depending on the GT book anymore, there is no need for every 6 months a new mission book with even more bad ideas.

Expand: what makes it a bad idea?

Not saying it's a good idea, I just want to know the thought process.

You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

How is it any different to now? People take the best one for free, if it's good enough they'll pay a CP for it.

Dudeface wrote:

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

How is it any different to now? People take the best one for free, if it's good enough they'll pay a CP for it.

It's definitely different. Now WLT and relics are luxury. Even in a really friendly setting you are now incentivised to only take those who will make your list work.

I am probably in the minority, but I like that traits and relics cost CP now.

Mostly because I never liked that you got something for free, especially when relics and traits tend vary wildly across books. However, the caveat is that this might make named characters more attractive as they tend to have trait/relic abilities built into their datasheet.

Otherwise I am excited about these changes as they appear to be almost a completely different game and it will be interesting to see how the meta/game evolves going forward. I would also mention that this is a nerf/change that is affecting every army so if you think you are screwed the other player might also be kind of screwed. We probably won't see the final picture until the dust settles. I do hope I get some secondaries I can pick now for Death Guard since TTL and Strangle are gone.

I do hope the point changes are sensible this time around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

It has been mentioned on reddit that the new CA rules only apply to GT games so if you are playing Tempest or any other variant these new rules will not apply to them. That is at least how the rumor goes.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I am probably in the minority, but I like that traits and relics cost CP now.

Mostly because I never liked that you got something for free, especially when relics and traits tend vary wildly across books. However, the caveat is that this might make named characters more attractive as they tend to have trait/relic abilities built into their datasheet.

Otherwise I am excited about these changes as they appear to be almost a completely different game and it will be interesting to see how the meta/game evolves going forward. I would also mention that this is a nerf/change that is affecting every army so if you think you are screwed the other player might also be kind of screwed. We probably won't see the final picture until the dust settles. I do hope I get some secondaries I can pick now for Death Guard since TTL and Strangle are gone.

I do hope the point changes are sensible this time around.

 Eldarsif wrote:


I like these changes too, running into an army that spent five or six CP up front to turn all it's characters into absolute monsters and then burning another five or six on first-turn combo-wombos to delete big chunks of your army is the bad feels. Now you have to really weigh those relics and warlord traits against your turn one shenanigans.

Generating a CP on your opponent's turn is a fantastic change too, "you're out of CP so I can charge you with impunity" is also a bad feels.

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

It has been mentioned on reddit that the new CA rules only apply to GT games so if you are playing Tempest or any other variant these new rules will not apply to them. That is at least how the rumor goes.

I have a feeling people are going to want to use those CP generation rules in Tempest anyway once they've actually tried it, 6+2 per turn makes for a better game.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I am probably in the minority, but I like that traits and relics cost CP now.

Mostly because I never liked that you got something for free, especially when relics and traits tend vary wildly across books. However, the caveat is that this might make named characters more attractive as they tend to have trait/relic abilities built into their datasheet.

But they all cost the same, so that doesn’t change anything to do with them varying between books.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I am probably in the minority, but I like that traits and relics cost CP now.

Mostly because I never liked that you got something for free, especially when relics and traits tend vary wildly across books. However, the caveat is that this might make named characters more attractive as they tend to have trait/relic abilities built into their datasheet.

Otherwise I am excited about these changes as they appear to be almost a completely different game and it will be interesting to see how the meta/game evolves going forward. I would also mention that this is a nerf/change that is affecting every army so if you think you are screwed the other player might also be kind of screwed. We probably won't see the final picture until the dust settles. I do hope I get some secondaries I can pick now for Death Guard since TTL and Strangle are gone.

I do hope the point changes are sensible this time around.

I like these changes too, running into an army that spent five or six CP up front to turn all it's characters into absolute monsters and then burning another five or six on first-turn combo-wombos to delete big chunks of your army is the bad feels. Now you have to really weigh those relics and warlord traits against your turn one shenanigans.

Generating a CP on your opponent's turn is a fantastic change too, "you're out of CP so I can charge you with impunity" is also a bad feels.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

It has been mentioned on reddit that the new CA rules only apply to GT games so if you are playing Tempest or any other variant these new rules will not apply to them. That is at least how the rumor goes.

I have a feeling people are going to want to use those CP generation rules in Tempest anyway once they've actually tried it, 6+2 per turn makes for a better game.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

How is it any different to now? People take the best one for free, if it's good enough they'll pay a CP for it.

It's definitely different. Now WLT and relics are luxury. Even in a really friendly setting you are now incentivised to only take those who will make your list work.

OK... but currently, with a free trait and relic, I still take the one that makes my list work the best. So nothing changes I just have to spend a CP if I want it?

I think you're missing my point, people lists won't be different in terms of what traits and relic they'd pick, it's simply whether they choose to buy them now.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I am probably in the minority, but I like that traits and relics cost CP now.

Mostly because I never liked that you got something for free, especially when relics and traits tend vary wildly across books. However, the caveat is that this might make named characters more attractive as they tend to have trait/relic abilities built into their datasheet.

But they all cost the same, so that doesn’t change anything to do with them varying between books.

Which is a GW problem. Relics and traits should have varying costs and should probably have point cost instead of CP cost.

This is more that if you are running a force that really doesn't have any attractive traits/relics you can technically skip on that. Some of the armies I have been running can actually skip the increased cost because I have no use of certain warlord traits on my warlord. It's a small change and one that probably takes time for players to leverage in the long run. In short, I like the extra dimension it gives even if I agree that the implementation could have been better.

The Newman wrote:I have a feeling people are going to want to use those CP generation rules in Tempest anyway once they've actually tried it, 6+2 per turn makes for a better game.

For pick up games I'll admit that it is a possibility, although I think if you are playing PUG then people are probably going to gravitate more towards using the GT ruleset instead of Tempest. In my experience Tempest missions are something I have only been able to play with well known friends where as the rest just wants GT. Everybody always training for the big tournament ahead regardless of whether they intend to join it or not.

I like these changes too, running into an army that spent five or six CP up front to turn all it's characters into absolute monsters and then burning another five or six on first-turn combo-wombos to delete big chunks of your army is the bad feels. Now you have to really weigh those relics and warlord traits against your turn one shenanigans.

Generating a CP on your opponent's turn is a fantastic change too, "you're out of CP so I can charge you with impunity" is also a bad feels.

I think the new CP changes are very good and have the potential of curbing the stratagem use a lot of dakka users complain about. They now actually feel like a resource you must manage instead of something you can burn up in a debilitating alpha strike.

tneva82 wrote:
Well basic white scars are basic foot troops. Pre-primaris standard white scar most numerous was tac squad in rhino. All bike lists wasn't fluffy ws force but waac's min-maxing.

Thank you for the insult (waac min maxing) without knowing anything.
I play WS since 3rd when they received their Rules in WD. Till this day i still play them by that standard. No Dreads, no unit with movement less then 12 and if it is less it needs a transport. That was, and for me still is, their fluff and rules.

Oh and my command squad is with melee only and all have different weapons because i like the look of it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
White Scars are a Codex Chapter. The idea that they're an all biker army isn't a reality.

True not an all biker but high mobility, and thus mostly biker, transports or Speeder. That changed after I decided to start them in 3rd edition. I still keep that canon otherwise they are just white SM, and get out maneuvered and out run by a mere company, which I can not stand to witness.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
TTL and Stranglehold are gone.
Banners doesn't require a clear objective.
Interrogate changes, but I don't understand it yet.

Starting CP is 6 now. You gain 1 cp per player turn (2 per battle round)
Warlord Traits and Relics must now be bought with a new requisition stratagem - you no longer get a free one of each with your warlord, but must pay 1cp for each ( OUCH ).

Most secondaries have changed, most categories only have 2 secondaries, except for the psychic secondary pack. Some have been folded into others (titan hunters into Bring it Down).

No new missions.

Let's see, my tanks cost me CP. My dreadnoughts cost me CP. And now my Warlord's trait and relic cost me CP. And I start with half as much. Lovely. All my lists are either at 0-2 starting CP, or just illegal. Gods, Martial Legacy is such a great rule./s

This really makes all of those "extra relic/warlord trait" strategems pretty redundant, doesn't it?

The Newman wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I am probably in the minority, but I like that traits and relics cost CP now.

Mostly because I never liked that you got something for free, especially when relics and traits tend vary wildly across books. However, the caveat is that this might make named characters more attractive as they tend to have trait/relic abilities built into their datasheet.

Otherwise I am excited about these changes as they appear to be almost a completely different game and it will be interesting to see how the meta/game evolves going forward. I would also mention that this is a nerf/change that is affecting every army so if you think you are screwed the other player might also be kind of screwed. We probably won't see the final picture until the dust settles. I do hope I get some secondaries I can pick now for Death Guard since TTL and Strangle are gone.

I do hope the point changes are sensible this time around.

I like these changes too, running into an army that spent five or six CP up front to turn all it's characters into absolute monsters and then burning another five or six on first-turn combo-wombos to delete big chunks of your army is the bad feels. Now you have to really weigh those relics and warlord traits against your turn one shenanigans.

Generating a CP on your opponent's turn is a fantastic change too, "you're out of CP so I can charge you with impunity" is also a bad feels.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
You will never see the not absolutely best traits or relics. Only the same Best of the Best if they cost CP.

I hate these tournament CAs.

It has been mentioned on reddit that the new CA rules only apply to GT games so if you are playing Tempest or any other variant these new rules will not apply to them. That is at least how the rumor goes.

I have a feeling people are going to want to use those CP generation rules in Tempest anyway once they've actually tried it, 6+2 per turn makes for a better game.

Ork players always complained they don't have a lot of good strategems - well good news, now they can't play them anyway

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Ork players always complained they don't have a lot of good strategems - well good news, now they can't play them anyway

But now we can't take our warbosses, or the traits and relics that make them good either

Also the idea that turn 1 alpha strikes are a problem is so outdated and again, is down to specific armies if it does still happen.

If anything the big kick-off damage dealing in 40k, in GT games at least, happens in turn 2 and usually 3 in which these new generation changes means they'll still be able to do their big wombo combo buff stacking moves.

It's a fix for a non-existent problem and it doesn't even really fix what it is intended to.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Warlord Traits and Relics must now be bought with a new requisition stratagem - you no longer get a free one of each with your warlord, but must pay 1cp for each ( OUCH )

That seems like an over-correction, so, pretty on-brand for GW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No new missions.

So what the hell's in the book. Why would you buy it?

I'm unsure how I feel about the CP thing still. It seems like it benefits named characters potentially.

Definitely time to transition the whole book to free and digital.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
No offense but this really highlights your ignorance of how Orks currently work. Not when pretty much all Orks lists burn through 6-7 CP on multiple detachments so we can have relics/warlord traits and additional Warbosses. Now its handicapping us from bringing our main heavy hitters.

It may depend on the points adjustments you get, which might let you lean away from forcing two warbosses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This really makes all of those "extra relic/warlord trait" strategems pretty redundant, doesn't it?

Not redundant, but it definitely forces down the maximum number of relics and traits available. Thousand Sons have a bit of an edge here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
The broken armies tend to be broken because of army/unit rules and undercosted models. Not Strats.

It varies. Admech was definitely a strat army. Harlequins not as much.

The you have to pay CP for WLT and relics is a stealth buff to Necrons. All of our traits and relics(maybe the veil is still worth it) are pretty terrible so if everyone has to pay for their sweet cool abilities we'll just start with more CP than them now cause ours are definitely not worth a CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Warlord Traits and Relics must now be bought with a new requisition stratagem - you no longer get a free one of each with your warlord, but must pay 1cp for each ( OUCH )

That seems like an over-correction, so, pretty on-brand for GW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No new missions.

So what the hell's in the book. Why would you buy it?

I'm unsure how I feel about the CP thing still. It seems like it benefits named characters potentially.

Definitely time to transition the whole book to free and digital.

H.B.M.C is right, it's an over correction. And they have a bad habit about it. The CP change would have been enough, but they had to take one more step.

And it probably will benefit named characters, and hurt subfactions without named characters.

You're right about this needing to be 100% free and digital though.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This really makes all of those "extra relic/warlord trait" strategems pretty redundant, doesn't it?

Not redundant, but it definitely forces down the maximum number of relics and traits available. Thousand Sons have a bit of an edge here.

How, exactly? Are you referring to the Legion Command stuff?

Cute how you just ignored my point about how this is going to hit any Astartes players that like using the "wrong" (at least in gw's opinion) models, too.

 Punisher wrote:
The you have to pay CP for WLT and relics is a stealth buff to Necrons. All of our traits and relics(maybe the veil is still worth it) are pretty terrible so if everyone has to pay for their sweet cool abilities we'll just start with more CP than them now cause ours are definitely not worth a CP.

Which is kind of what I figured as I have a Necron army.

However, the downside of the new system is that it makes named characters that much more attractive in most armies as they have trait/relic type stuff already built into their profile. So I wonder if those characters will get a point increase.