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Made in us
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






How do!

So this is a bit of an aimless moan, filtered through the ol’ rose tinted.

No, not Backwards in the derogatory term for someone not of expected educational performance. Or clinging to outdated methods and ideals.

Backwards in how the Faction is represented.

See….there really aren’t all that many Chaos Space Marines. Not really. But there are at least as many Chaos Cults as there are Imperial Words. Sure, most are small fry, thankfully for The Imperium either too ill equipped or ill trained to be a particularly deadly threat. But when they are? Their cultists come in staggering numbers. The sneakier ones will incite a Popular Revolt without revealing their true motivations to their Followers (including those genuinely fighting for better rations and conditions etc) until it’s all far too late.

Yet…on the tabletop? It’s Maureens a-go-go. Yes you do get Cults and equivalent, but they’re a minority on the board.

And I don’t think simply introducing Lost and the Damned or equivalent is going to be enough. Because for far too long (as in, 2nd Ed to now) it’s all been about those naughty post-human heretics.

I think that’s a real shame. If they’d focussed on the mortal misbehaviour, CSM could’ve been, individually, forced to be reckoned with. As in even a basic CSM, to represent their decades of experience and survival, being a Low Level Character in terms of stats. With less standardised equipment options, because part of being Chaos is a greater individual freedom of sorts (granted you just swapped one oppressive master for another, but at least the new guy doesn’t dictate what guns you can carry).

Think them all being Chosen in terms of stats and equipment (not the latest Chosen, who I understand to have silly equipment restrictions?), with Chosen being particular blessed (think exhibiting useful mutations and nascent psychic abilities as they swell, and contain, dark power).

Sorry. This thread really doesn’t have much of a point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And where are all the manky mutants and other oddities of the Eye of Terror? Trolls, Ogryns, Minotaur, Beastmen etc?

Chaos should arguably be a riot of choice, with the player free to have their force focussed or as hodge-podge as they please.

IA:13 is indeed an excellent example of what could’ve been.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/23 12:23:08


   
Made in us
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I mean, yeah. But spikey marines were easier to make.

Its also that RoC introduced the randomly generated renegade warband fights as essentially a mini-game, but started giving traitor legions (BL, WE, EC) actual army lists for 40k.

So they established the precedent and ran with it before the background was fully fleshed out.

There were various mutant and beastmen and spawn models, but by and large they were also kind of awful models (even by the standard of the time). I don't know if anyone else has (or has seen) the truly awful metal chaos spawn models where you could just plug limbs and necks into fairly basic bodies and have a... thing to put on the table. But it wasn't good.

Plastic mutation sprues were always lacking, too. The limits of what they could do with the medium were much lower, and the 'mutations' more uniform. We're still seeing that to some degree, which is why we're getting monopose mutants and 'torments' (which aren't chaos spawn because reasons, and those old plastics aren't real great either)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/23 13:07:22


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And where are all the manky mutants and other oddities of the Eye of Terror? Trolls, Ogryns, Minotaur, Beastmen etc?

Chaos should arguably be a riot of choice, with the player free to have their force focussed or as hodge-podge as they please.

IA:13 is indeed an excellent example of what could’ve been.


.... and that is why we can't have nice things, far to expensive for a kit, imagine gw for once actually giving you a sprue worth the asking price...
alas can't have that.

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on the forum. Obviously

Yeah, I always thought that was kind of weird.
Chaos Marines are supposed to be few in number due to difficulties in recruitment (Fabius Bile's efforts and the Demonculaba), yet they are as common as loyalist marines.

Chaos Marines are supposed to be more dangerous due to the demonic mutation and that they are millennia old veterans, and yet they are the same. Every Chaos Marine should really be the equivalent of a Space Marine veteran.

Really, Chaos Marines should be stronger and more "elite" than their loyalist counterparts, but have to rely on mortal soldiers more to balance them out due to higher points costs and list restrictions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/23 13:12:21


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Thematically I kind of like Torments when considered through the RoC tables.

Becoming a Daemon Prince was less about being super powerful, and more about being able to handle the multiple gifts, boons and mutations without turning inside out. If you could? Daemonhood. If not? Big ol’ ‘orrible pile of flesh with the faintest glimmer of sentience remaining. This tied in really nicely with the explanation of why the gifts etc were so random. Potted version was the Gods not caring, or not being able to discern, what was beneficial or detrimental to their favourite. That the gave a Gift was enough. Some got lucky and it was useful, like Iron Hard Skin. Other ended up with, I dunno, Weasels for Eyes, a Duck’s Bum for a mouth, and wings. In the eyes of the Gods, the Weasel Eyed, Duck’s Bum mouthed and winged champion was more successful, because he had more Gifts. Like an elderly relative no longer the full shilling giving you £500 for Christmas, but your sibling a dead cat, an old sock and a bit of used chewing gum, meaning to favour your sibling because they gave them more presents.

For Torments it’s really not looking good - but there’s still the chance they’ll prove strong enough and hit Daemonhood.

   
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I think the typical “sums it up” response to this is chaos aren’t represented on the 40K table top, CSM and Demons are represented and they are 2 of the fighting forces for the forces of chaos.

I think Mad Doc is correct though in what his post says. And maybe we will get a regrade guard/cultist type codex one day if the cultists enhancement in the new edition of codex CSM are popular with consumers.

I personally would prefer codex Demon Worlds as we have the GSC to fulfil the role of an imperial world uprising where as demon worlds have all sorts of interesting thing going on and it would allow for a proper Choas army of demons, CSM and cultisits from multiple xenos species
   
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The dark behind the eyes.

This is very much an outsider's perspective as I don't actually play Chaos. However, I've often found myself scratching my head as to how the army is organised between codices.

You've got Chaos Space Marines, which includes all of the Marine, cultist and vehicle stuff. Okay, does what it says on the tin, I guess.

Then you've got the Chaos Daemons book, which has all the demons stuff. Not entirely sure why these need to be separate from the Marines who work with them, summon them etc. but whatever. Arbitrary separation is arbitrary. But wait, why are Daemon Princes in both books? Is it because they're effectively demons but also Marines? Because in that case, why aren't Possessed in the Daemons book? Aren't they also Marines and Daemons? Hell, why isn't the Soul Grinder in the Marines book when it's half-vehicle?

Well, whatever. I guess the important thing is that, barring the weird exception of the Daemon Prince, Daemons are kept completely separate from CSMs.

But wait, then we get to Death Guard and suddenly a Marine army can include Poxwalkers and Plague Drones. So I guess daemons will directly work with CSMs after all? Also, why are some demon-powered/possessed vehicles fine for Death Guard (like the Defiler and Plagueburst Crawler) but others are anathema (e.g. Forgefiend and Maulerfiend)? Do some machines only work for the 'normal' CSMs?

It's a similar thing with Thousand Sons, who can have various flavours of Tzaangors working alongside them. They can also have the massive, fully-daemon Mutalith Vortex Beast, but not the half-daemon, half-mech Soul Grinder. Oh and the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend are back in season, so I guess they'll work for Tzeentch but not Nurgle? Even though they have no issues being in a CSM army where everything has Nurgle's Mark . . . ?

And then you have... oh nevermind, I guess Khorne and Slaanesh aren't important enough to have their own armies.


Again, this is an outsider's perspective so apologies if my observations are silly and there's a perfectly logical reason for these inconsistencies. It's just one of those things that I struggle to wrap my head around.

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on the forum. Obviously

Demons being a separate force was a 5th ed convention, iirc. Demons used to be in the CSM book, and were a Word Bearers gimmick in 3.5.

A lot of what you noted is just GW's obsession with bloat.
Space Marines have Chapter Bloat, CSM have a mess of Chaos Demons and god specific armies as their bloat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/23 13:23:43


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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See….there really aren’t all that many Chaos Space Marines.
This is a flawed premise. There aren't many Loyalists Space Marines either, yet we have as many if not more books for small Chapter organisations as we do for all the Xenos races in the game combined.

The faction is Chaos Space Marines. That's why it focuses on Chaos Space Marines. Slowly but surely non-Marines are being added, but even then new things aren't even making it into the Codex (Traitor Guard).

And they can't even get the CSM side of things right, and Daemons as a separate faction was a terrible idea (that has gone no where!) so I don't see how they could improve things by further deemphasising CSMs in favour of Cultists and the like.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And where are all the manky mutants and other oddities of the Eye of Terror? Trolls, Ogryns, Minotaur, Beastmen etc?
They have them. They come in strict regimented blocks of 10, and for every 10 you get 3 really messed up mutants. But you have to stick to 10/3. Going against that would go against the Codex Traitoris, which defined exactly how CSMs (and their allies) can be fielded.

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Well. On the separation of mortal and daemon?

I’m kind of, not really, but ish, not against that. Depending on how it’s done.

And I’ll refer you to The Imperium. I’m going to cheat and for this specific purpose treat all non-Grey Knight Marines as one.

Having done that arbitrary, but please save your contention until you’ve read all of this….


1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Sisters of Battle
4. Custards
5. Imperial Guard
6. Imperial Knights
7. Adeptus Mechanicus

Seven. Seven different wings of the same overall galactic Faction.

Chaos kind of needs the same. And…I don’t think it should ever be a single book. And I don’t mean “if the imperium has seven Chaos should have seven”. Just….don’t treat Chaos so broadly.

Now to somewhat contradict my earlier arbitrary “marines are marines until they’re psychic” line (I did say hold your contention!), I think Legion/Cult specific Codecies are a step in the right direction. Because they’re quite specialised compared to each other, and baseline Naughty Maureens - and I would argue compared to Vanilla and Flavoured Marines.

If anything, I think Lost & Damned could be the bulkiest volume. Not quite IA:13 (it’s still an awesome volume, but so full of options it’s not for newcomers, who would be overwhelmed. I’d argue it’s the last RoC equivalent book to date). Because I don’t think the mortal, culty followers of Chaos should be particularly overly defined.

But….I would argue Chaos should have the greatest freedom to mix and match, to represent their anarchic organisation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See….there really aren’t all that many Chaos Space Marines.
This is a flawed premise. There aren't many Loyalists Space Marines either, yet we have as many if not more books for small Chapter organisations as we do for all the Xenos races in the game combined.

The faction is Chaos Space Marines. That's why it focuses on Chaos Space Marines. Slowly but surely non-Marines are being added, but even then new things aren't even making it into the Codex (Traitor Guard).

And they can't even get the CSM side of things right, and Daemons as a separate faction was a terrible idea (that has gone no where!) so I don't see how they could improve things by further deemphasising CSMs in favour of Cultists and the like.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And where are all the manky mutants and other oddities of the Eye of Terror? Trolls, Ogryns, Minotaur, Beastmen etc?
They have them. They come in strict regimented blocks of 10, and for every 10 you get 3 really messed up mutants. But you have to stick to 10/3. Going against that would go against the Codex Traitoris, which defined exactly how CSMs (and their allies) can be fielded.


First point is kind of what I was getting at. Ish. But not here to start and argument. I think you’ve misread or misconstrued my intent, but that’s likely on my own explanation than your reading thereof. I’m trying to get that over the years, CSM have received focus and effort over the wider, and background wise arguably bigger threat, of Cults being endemic within The Imperium.

Second point is an entirely justified indictment of the latest (or soon to be latest I suppose) Chaos Codex, and I’d argue a good reason to justify my desire to see Chaos diversify into more focussed Codecies

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/23 13:41:13


   
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Annandale, VA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See….there really aren’t all that many Chaos Space Marines. Not really. But there are at least as many Chaos Cults as there are Imperial Words. Sure, most are small fry, thankfully for The Imperium either too ill equipped or ill trained to be a particularly deadly threat. But when they are? Their cultists come in staggering numbers. The sneakier ones will incite a Popular Revolt without revealing their true motivations to their Followers (including those genuinely fighting for better rations and conditions etc) until it’s all far too late.

Yet…on the tabletop? It’s Maureens a-go-go. Yes you do get Cults and equivalent, but they’re a minority on the board.

And I don’t think simply introducing Lost and the Damned or equivalent is going to be enough. Because for far too long (as in, 2nd Ed to now) it’s all been about those naughty post-human heretics.

I think that’s a real shame. If they’d focussed on the mortal misbehaviour, CSM could’ve been, individually, forced to be reckoned with. As in even a basic CSM, to represent their decades of experience and survival, being a Low Level Character in terms of stats. With less standardised equipment options, because part of being Chaos is a greater individual freedom of sorts (granted you just swapped one oppressive master for another, but at least the new guy doesn’t dictate what guns you can carry).


Couldn't agree with this more. My image of Chaos has always been a horde of corrupted traitors acting as meatshields for a core of tough-as-nails warp-infused supermen, with daemons coming out of the woodwork in support, and the current rules don't really support that.

That said, it's not everyone's idea of Chaos, and there are certainly other fluff-supported compositions because, well, it's Chaos. So if I were designing Codex:CSM, I wouldn't design it to only support that vision. I'd support a number of distinct elements:
1. Basic CSM, comparable stats to Firstborn loyalists.
2. Elite veterans, maybe just Chosen.
3. Cult Marines dedicated to a specific god.
4. Traitor Guard with some regimentation and organization.
5. Rag-tag militias, cultists, mutants, beastmen, zombies.
6. Daemons.

And then I'd structure the army to let you mix and match these elements as you please to build your vision of a Chaos army. So you could build Red Corsairs (#1, some #2), Death Guard (#3, #5, #6), Blood Pact (#4), Vraksian renegades (#4, #5, some #2 and #6), Black Legion (#1, #2, various #3 and #6), and so on and so on from the same book. Of course, GW gonna GW, so realistically it'd be split into a bunch of books- and the real underlying issue there is that the way GW has structured force composition makes mixing these elements unnecessarily difficult.

Ideally, you should be able to take whatever you want, with synergies providing natural incentives to follow theme, rather than hard restrictions.

   
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Way back in 2nd edition the writers explained why they focused Chaos, as a faction, on the traitor marines.

It's what the players wanted.

At the start of 2nd the Chaos list was a mishmash of demons, cultists, mutants, and marines. However, most players focussed on marines with some demons in support. When Chaos finally got its first proper codex, then, the writers chose to reflect that preference by making the "default" army a traitor marine warband that could summon some demons. Sort of like how the default Imperial Guard army is an infantry company, or the default Eldar army is the massed warhost of the craftworld.

This focus also served the writers' goals of simplifying the army and making it easier to both play and balance, as there were fewer moving parts to consider. The codex did have an appendix with rules for mutants and human cultists, but the focus of the list remained on marines.

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We're only just starting to see an update of the chaos line in plastic. There aren't really enough non-CSM units to warrant their own codex. Even if they were put in a separate book a large number of players would be howling for rules that effectively allowed you to integrate the two.

For now the CSM book includes other mortal followers. It may not stay like that forever and when it changes people can then complain they have to buy two books.

As a thousand sons player I'm glad they didn't put the tzaangors in a separate book. Yes, I'd like more thousand sons legion units and clearly a lot of CSM players feel the same way about their options, but I'm glad they're in my codex for the sake of variety.

The legions fight in warbands and they also fight alongside a host of lost and dammed. Personally, I don't care if that's represented by one book or two.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/23 13:57:50


 
   
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The point about there being relatively few CSMs is imo a sort of 'popular conception' without much of backing. I believe it's certainly true for some forces (the World Eaters and Emperor's Children for example are described as relatively scattered and in poor straits - though the WE were able to at one point muster fifty thousand Khorne Bezerkers).

Some sources describe the Black Legion as close to a Space Marine Legion in size - others describe the Red Corsairs as Legion sized. The Word Bearers Omnibus describes the BL as being '10 times' the size of the WB and the WB aren't a small force. The Death Guard are also described as having 'grown' since the Heresy.

I don't however disagree that Chaos as a force deserves more options for presentation. Atm I think we receive this horrible, watered down, mixed presentation which really suits nobody.

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Chaos should have a slightly different detachment rule. It should be that each detachment has to have either a <Chaos God> in common or a <Legion> in common. That way you could mix and match say Nurgle stuff (daemons, CSM, R & H and/or LoD) all in one detachment with no penalty or you could go hard core Legion with only those units that belong in a specific Legion's perview. This would allow flexibility while still maintaining a flavor cohesiveness. IMHO.
   
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 blood reaper wrote:
The point about there being relatively few CSMs is imo a sort of 'popular conception' without much of backing. I believe it's certainly true for some forces (the World Eaters and Emperor's Children for example are described as relatively scattered and in poor straits - though the WE were able to at one point muster fifty thousand Khorne Bezerkers).

Some sources describe the Black Legion as close to a Space Marine Legion in size - others describe the Red Corsairs as Legion sized. The Word Bearers Omnibus describes the BL as being '10 times' the size of the WB and the WB aren't a small force. The Death Guard are also described as having 'grown' since the Heresy.

I don't however disagree that Chaos as a force deserves more options for presentation. Atm I think we receive this horrible, watered down, mixed presentation which really suits nobody.


Sorry to pick on your post specifically, but I should’ve been clearer in my original post.

I should’ve added “relatively few CSM compared to untold millions if not billions, potentially trillions of Cultists, Mutants and Manky Things etc”

Yes they’re absolutely the most reliable and martially consistent wing of Chaos’ minions. But they absolutely are a minority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Chaos should have a slightly different detachment rule. It should be that each detachment has to have either a <Chaos God> in common or a <Legion> in common. That way you could mix and match say Nurgle stuff (daemons, CSM, R & H and/or LoD) all in one detachment with no penalty or you could go hard core Legion with only those units that belong in a specific Legion's perview. This would allow flexibility while still maintaining a flavor cohesiveness. IMHO.


I know others are adverse to Exceptions? I disagree.

Id like to see a Chaos player able to form their preferred army without penalty for taking a bit from, but front there, dash of this, hint of that, precisely because Chaos is pretty ragtag. Not so much brothers in arms, or even allies in the conventional sense. More ‘I will murder you and your followers, but for now let’s murder those loyalist D-Bags first because it’s more fun”


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Black Adder wrote:
We're only just starting to see an update of the chaos line in plastic. There aren't really enough non-CSM units to warrant their own codex. Even if they were put in a separate book a large number of players would be howling for rules that effectively allowed you to integrate the two.

For now the CSM book includes other mortal followers. It may not stay like that forever and when it changes people can then complain they have to buy two books.

As a thousand sons player I'm glad they didn't put the tzaangors in a separate book. Yes, I'd like more thousand sons legion units and clearly a lot of CSM players feel the same way about their options, but I'm glad they're in my codex for the sake of variety.

The legions fight in warbands and they also fight alongside a host of lost and dammed. Personally, I don't care if that's represented by one book or two.


On this? 9th, for all I gather (as a non-active player) has been the edition of Lots Of New Models. Whilst not saying Votann shouldn’t have been done, the Votann, Necron, Craftworld and Orky releases show GW most definitely do have the overall resources that, if they wished, they could do a frankly staggering level of Chaos Specific releases, across more than one Codex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/23 14:10:28


   
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I agree Maddok, simply chaous matines should be enourmously powerfully and few in numbers filling out the bulk of there armys with demons vehicles and cultists. then there should be a legion suplement that lools like modern chaos matines. in the lore marines blessed by chaos should hands down be far stronger than loyalists. as it sita right now I find myself asking again and again why would any space matine be devoted to chaos?
   
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 catbarf wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See….there really aren’t all that many Chaos Space Marines. Not really. But there are at least as many Chaos Cults as there are Imperial Words. Sure, most are small fry, thankfully for The Imperium either too ill equipped or ill trained to be a particularly deadly threat. But when they are? Their cultists come in staggering numbers. The sneakier ones will incite a Popular Revolt without revealing their true motivations to their Followers (including those genuinely fighting for better rations and conditions etc) until it’s all far too late.

Yet…on the tabletop? It’s Maureens a-go-go. Yes you do get Cults and equivalent, but they’re a minority on the board.

And I don’t think simply introducing Lost and the Damned or equivalent is going to be enough. Because for far too long (as in, 2nd Ed to now) it’s all been about those naughty post-human heretics.

I think that’s a real shame. If they’d focussed on the mortal misbehaviour, CSM could’ve been, individually, forced to be reckoned with. As in even a basic CSM, to represent their decades of experience and survival, being a Low Level Character in terms of stats. With less standardised equipment options, because part of being Chaos is a greater individual freedom of sorts (granted you just swapped one oppressive master for another, but at least the new guy doesn’t dictate what guns you can carry).


Couldn't agree with this more. My image of Chaos has always been a horde of corrupted traitors acting as meatshields for a core of tough-as-nails warp-infused supermen, with daemons coming out of the woodwork in support, and the current rules don't really support that.

That said, it's not everyone's idea of Chaos, and there are certainly other fluff-supported compositions because, well, it's Chaos. So if I were designing Codex:CSM, I wouldn't design it to only support that vision. I'd support a number of distinct elements:
1. Basic CSM, comparable stats to Firstborn loyalists.
2. Elite veterans, maybe just Chosen.
3. Cult Marines dedicated to a specific god.
4. Traitor Guard with some regimentation and organization.
5. Rag-tag militias, cultists, mutants, beastmen, zombies.
6. Daemons.

And then I'd structure the army to let you mix and match these elements as you please to build your vision of a Chaos army. So you could build Red Corsairs (#1, some #2), Death Guard (#3, #5, #6), Blood Pact (#4), Vraksian renegades (#4, #5, some #2 and #6), Black Legion (#1, #2, various #3 and #6), and so on and so on from the same book. Of course, GW gonna GW, so realistically it'd be split into a bunch of books- and the real underlying issue there is that the way GW has structured force composition makes mixing these elements unnecessarily difficult.

Ideally, you should be able to take whatever you want, with synergies providing natural incentives to follow theme, rather than hard restrictions.

I like this idea.

I'd go with #2 for my guys.
   
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 blood reaper wrote:
The point about there being relatively few CSMs is imo a sort of 'popular conception' without much of backing. I believe it's certainly true for some forces (the World Eaters and Emperor's Children for example are described as relatively scattered and in poor straits - though the WE were able to at one point muster fifty thousand Khorne Bezerkers).

Some sources describe the Black Legion as close to a Space Marine Legion in size - others describe the Red Corsairs as Legion sized. The Word Bearers Omnibus describes the BL as being '10 times' the size of the WB and the WB aren't a small force. The Death Guard are also described as having 'grown' since the Heresy.

I don't however disagree that Chaos as a force deserves more options for presentation. Atm I think we receive this horrible, watered down, mixed presentation which really suits nobody.
well they are for sure fewer than loyalists so they are relitivley few of them. as simply if they where not fewer than loyalists it would be the other way around with chaos with the massive empire and loyalists ocasionally raiding it.
   
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See….there really aren’t all that many Chaos Space Marines. Not really. But there are at least as many Chaos Cults as there are Imperial Words. Sure, most are small fry, thankfully for The Imperium either too ill equipped or ill trained to be a particularly deadly threat. But when they are? Their cultists come in staggering numbers. The sneakier ones will incite a Popular Revolt without revealing their true motivations to their Followers (including those genuinely fighting for better rations and conditions etc) until it’s all far too late.

Yet…on the tabletop? It’s Maureens a-go-go. Yes you do get Cults and equivalent, but they’re a minority on the board.

And I don’t think simply introducing Lost and the Damned or equivalent is going to be enough. Because for far too long (as in, 2nd Ed to now) it’s all been about those naughty post-human heretics.

I think that’s a real shame. If they’d focussed on the mortal misbehaviour, CSM could’ve been, individually, forced to be reckoned with. As in even a basic CSM, to represent their decades of experience and survival, being a Low Level Character in terms of stats. With less standardised equipment options, because part of being Chaos is a greater individual freedom of sorts (granted you just swapped one oppressive master for another, but at least the new guy doesn’t dictate what guns you can carry).


Couldn't agree with this more. My image of Chaos has always been a horde of corrupted traitors acting as meatshields for a core of tough-as-nails warp-infused supermen, with daemons coming out of the woodwork in support, and the current rules don't really support that.

That said, it's not everyone's idea of Chaos, and there are certainly other fluff-supported compositions because, well, it's Chaos. So if I were designing Codex:CSM, I wouldn't design it to only support that vision. I'd support a number of distinct elements:
1. Basic CSM, comparable stats to Firstborn loyalists.
2. Elite veterans, maybe just Chosen.
3. Cult Marines dedicated to a specific god.
4. Traitor Guard with some regimentation and organization.
5. Rag-tag militias, cultists, mutants, beastmen, zombies.
6. Daemons.

And then I'd structure the army to let you mix and match these elements as you please to build your vision of a Chaos army. So you could build Red Corsairs (#1, some #2), Death Guard (#3, #5, #6), Blood Pact (#4), Vraksian renegades (#4, #5, some #2 and #6), Black Legion (#1, #2, various #3 and #6), and so on and so on from the same book. Of course, GW gonna GW, so realistically it'd be split into a bunch of books- and the real underlying issue there is that the way GW has structured force composition makes mixing these elements unnecessarily difficult.

Ideally, you should be able to take whatever you want, with synergies providing natural incentives to follow theme, rather than hard restrictions.

I like this idea.

I'd go with #2 for my guys.
Seconded/thirded.

Yes Chaos should be able to be fielded as a total hodgepodge. Oh the days of Chaos 3.5 and the Lost and the Damned list. CSM, cultists, traitor guard, mutants, daemons. I want all of it.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





I only played Chaos in WHFB 6th, where mortals and Daemons shared a book. I'd be fine if most of chaos was in one or two books. Maybe "Chaos Space Marines" which includes the titular Marines, Chosen, cultists, etc., but also daemons and beastmen. If they added a second book that was "Cults and Militia" or "Renegades and Heretics" or something along those lines, and included Chaos Admech (I'd buy them immediately), Traitor Guard, honestly probably just a build a bear workshop for traitor stuff so you could have anyone be a traitor, like Tempestus Scions, Ogryn, stuff like that. My friend told me Orks used to have rules for looting vehicles, so maybe something similar, where you can apply chaos rules to certain models.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Loyalist marines are few and rare. Doesn't stop them being poster boys.


Marines sell.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Black Adder wrote:
We're only just starting to see an update of the chaos line in plastic. There aren't really enough non-CSM units to warrant their own codex. Even if they were put in a separate book a large number of players would be howling for rules that effectively allowed you to integrate the two.

For now the CSM book includes other mortal followers. It may not stay like that forever and when it changes people can then complain they have to buy two books.

As a thousand sons player I'm glad they didn't put the tzaangors in a separate book. Yes, I'd like more thousand sons legion units and clearly a lot of CSM players feel the same way about their options, but I'm glad they're in my codex for the sake of variety.

The legions fight in warbands and they also fight alongside a host of lost and dammed. Personally, I don't care if that's represented by one book or two.


On this? 9th, for all I gather (as a non-active player) has been the edition of Lots Of New Models. Whilst not saying Votann shouldn’t have been done, the Votann, Necron, Craftworld and Orky releases show GW most definitely do have the overall resources that, if they wished, they could do a frankly staggering level of Chaos Specific releases, across more than one Codex.


And what? Not produce any models for other armies? Sure there have been releases for other armies and yes, the time and cost could have all been put towards producing CSM in plastic, but they weren't so the codex writers have to deal with the reality of what has been released, which doesn't include enough non-CSM units for the lost and dammed, so they're in the the CSM codex as there's no other feasible place to put them.

There are plenty of armies that only saw a single plastic release this edition.
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I like that the aligned Legions have (or are getting) their own books. IMO there should be the 4 God books, a mortals book for Cults/Traitor Guard/sort of Dark Mech, the unaligned Legions and Red Corsairs in another, then Daemons.
You could bring some basic Daemon units in each of these armies with varying restrictions, for example, Death Guard could take say 25% of the army as Nurgle Daemons but they wouldn't be scoring while in a DG detachment, or the mortals book could only take minor Daemons as they don't have the prowess to summon anything greater. So your "mortal" forces could still fight alongside Daemons but to get the full Daemon experience you'd have to use that Codex.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




tneva82 wrote:
Loyalist marines are few and rare. Doesn't stop them being poster boys.


Cawl is mass printing them now and they can operate at legion size level, specialy if someone plays a force representing the early days of the G-man crusade.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I’m gonna go one further. Because I can.

When 2nd Ed rolled around, we first saw Chaos and Imperial forces having a difference of tech level. Mk1 Plasma Weapons could do more damage - but were prone to overheating. Imperium used Mk2 and later. Not quite a deadly, but had zero chance of going all Melty-Facey.

I want to see that more in Chaos Forces. Higher risk, higher reward. Do or die. I mean, when you turn to the worship of the Dark Gods? It’s all or nothing, do or die, Death, Prince, Spawn (which sounds like a 40K version of snog, marry, avoid now I think about it).

Higher rates of fire. More powerful but temperamental rounds. Elf ‘n’ Safety are for the weak.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







When the original Realm of Chaos books came out, the fact that actually building a Chaos force required doing a lot of conversions or custom modeling was sold as an opportunity (as expected during that era of wargaming, and GW's product range size).

But that creates a few problems:
* They published two entire hardcover books laying out a "bad guy"* faction for the game, creating a situation where if you wanted a modeling challenge, these "bad guy" models were a place to start. *(Ignore for a moment that the Imperium started out as a dystopian parody,
* It would take an amount of effort equal to the effort put into the loyalist faction books to present all of the different forces in the traitor forces.

In Realm of Chaos, the Space Marines became the important characters, and everyone else were supporting cast. The rest has just been following through from there.

Voss wrote:

There were various mutant and beastmen and spawn models, but by and large they were also kind of awful models (even by the standard of the time). I don't know if anyone else has (or has seen) the truly awful metal chaos spawn models where you could just plug limbs and necks into fairly basic bodies and have a... thing to put on the table. But it wasn't good.


I don't understand the problem. It's a chaos spawn. "A random assortment of limbs and heads stuck on a pile of flesh" was design specification. And the old metal models were therefore awesome.

In comparison, things like the plastic mutation sprees are a waste of time, because all they do is produce the same sort of "All of these mutated models look the same" situation that having mono-pose mutated models does. If you're not cutting pieces apart and sculpting your own pieces, you're not going to get a useful amount of variety.

Once upon a time, Defilers were constructed out of parts orders in the bits catalog, and "If you want wings for your demon prince, the Balrog wings make a good fit" were considered reasonable. Now, I'm sure that the only way a demon prince is getting wings is if they box contains the giant wings sprue.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
Loyalist marines are few and rare. Doesn't stop them being poster boys.


Marines sell.


Yes. I mean the premise does seem a bit odd.
Cue the meme pic. Imperium at 100%: Guard, Ad Mech, Marines (and Marines with Marines), Custodes, Sisters and Knights.
Imperium at 99%: Guard, Ad Mech.

The fact there's millions of cultists for every traitor space marine doesn't obviously translate to the idea that your army should be cultists with cultists backed by beastmen/zombies/whatever and idk, 5 ominous guys in power armour. Any more than the fact an Imperial Army at theatre strength is Guard with Guard and Guard and oh look, a few units of sub-1000 Marines showed up. Now they'll make one big attack, lose a chunk of their strength even if they win and promptly be irrelevant for years until they rebuild.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





The funny thing is, modelwize it's all there, even if you stick to GW/ FW only.
AoS is full of mortal Khorne followers that could easily be used in 40K, there were the Gellarpox infected for a proper Nurgle rabble, there are all those Warcry bands, beastmen would work in 40K with a mere upgrade sprue, you could even use Plague monks and other Nurgle Skaven, Slaanesh got a whole mortal range recently. Combine that with these new Cultist units and Guardsmen and all the Forgeworld stuff that was there at some point and you can create a very diverse Chaos force. Dark Mechanicum would need something more than just Daemon engines, but if you ask me just port the 30K Mechanicum models and done.

As for things missing? Bring the Chaos squats.
8th edition rulebook also hinted at Chaos Eldar which would be a nice shift from the focus on humanity.
   
 
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