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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Does Lorekeeper of Tzeentch affect both ranges listed on Infernal Gateway? (The 12" and 3") I feel like the answer should be no, but I can't justify it. It seems as written that it does. So I was hoping someone on Dakka might have greater insight and justification one way or the other.
Codex: Chaos Daemons pg 128 wrote:Lorekeeper of Tzeentch: Add 6" to the range of the first psychic power manifested by your Warlord in each Pyschic phase.
Codex: Chaos Daemons pg 132 wrote:Infernal Gateway: Infernal Gateway has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, identify the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker and visible to it; that model’s unit, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model, suffers D3 mortal wounds. The number of mortal wounds inflicted is D6 instead if the power is manifested with a Psychic test of 12+.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

It says "Add 6" to the range of the first psychic power manifested"

The range of Infernal Gateway is "within 12" of the psyker"

The 3 inch is not the range of the psychic power, because the psychic power can be cast at well more than 3 inches.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




What is your justification for excluding the 3" range from being affected?

To illustrate, under normal conditions the power has a range to affect units up to 12" + selected models base size + 3" away.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
What is your justification for excluding the 3" range from being affected?

To illustrate, under normal conditions the power has a range to affect units up to 12" + selected models base size + 3" away.
Because 12 inches is the range of the power. It basically targets the closest model within 12 inches.

It says "identify the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker and visible to it; that..."

The semicolon in the quote separates the powers range from the powers effect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/24 07:26:02


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




There is only one range for the psychic power, as defined in the core rules....
   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






The twelve inches is the range of the psychic power and is affected by the Lorekeeper of T. The three inches is the range of the effect and therefore is not.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is only one range for the psychic power, as defined in the core rules....
Is it defined? I had a look couldn't see anything. What is the document, page, and quote?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

JakeSiren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is only one range for the psychic power, as defined in the core rules....
Is it defined? I had a look couldn't see anything. What is the document, page, and quote?
TSons have a similar ability. Imbued Manifestation.

Use this Cabbalistic Ritual when a psychic power is successfully manifested by a unit from your army. Add 6" to the range of that psychic power’s effects (if that psychic power specifies multiple ranges, e.g. Astral Blast, add 6" to the first range specified in that psychic power).
So, Rules As Written, it may apply to both ranges in the spell.

However, I highly doubt it was meant to affect an 18" diameter circle (bigger, depending on the size of the initially targeted unit) with that ability. I would not play it that way-I'd add it to the first range, but not the second. If you're planning on going to a tournament with this, ask the TO.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Thank you for the info JNAProductions.

As I said in my OP, I feel like the RAI is to only affect the 12", so I'm not intending to play it as increasing the 3" range. I was more interested in the RAW and the support for or against such an interpretation.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Range is used twice in the core rules. Once is for the distance to control/contest an objective and the other is a characteristic of a weapon. That is defined:
Range: How far the weapon can shoot. Weapons with
a range of ‘Melee’ are melee weapons and can only be used in hand-to-hand combat. All other weapons are ranged weapons. Some weapons have a minimum and maximum range, for example 6"-48"; such weapons cannot target units that are wholly within the shorter range.

It is not defined for psychic powers. Common usage of the word is the distance between an actor and the target of its action.

Extending range to include the area of effect from the target is a stretch. Your opponent can equally stretch and say there is no range for psychic powers (unless that power uses the word range) and it has no effect at all.

Be reasonable and take the extended distance from the psycher without pushing the rule outside of common usage just because it isn't well defined in the rules.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Alextroy, that is an awfully narrow definition of range, and not one I would consider as "common usage". You even quoted Weapon Range (How far the weapon can shoot), and that doesn't fit the definition of "the distance between an actor and the target of its action". GW isn't making up new definitions of range, range is literally "how far?". The 12" and 3" are both ranges.
Your opponent can equally stretch and say there is no range for psychic powers (unless that power uses the word range) and it has no effect at all.
My opponent could be unreasonable. What's your point?
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is only one range for the psychic power, as defined in the core rules....


There is no such thing as a range definition for psychic powers. Common usage says that a range is a distance between two points. In this case the +6" would apply to both ranges, the 12" and 3".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/25 04:14:07


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Common usage says that a range is a distance between two points. In this case the +6" would apply to both ranges, the 12" and 3".
Do not ignore the context.

In the Context of 40K the range of a psychic power is the distance a power can reach when cast. (E.G. Smite has a "range" of 18 inches at max).

The Lorekeeper of Tzeentch rule says "Add 6" to the range of the first psychic power manifested by your Warlord..."

The range of the "Infernal Gateway" is in the rule, it says "identify the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker and visible to it; that..." There is the range of the power.

The semicolon in the quote separates the powers range from the powers effect.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:

The semicolon in the quote separates the powers range from the powers effect.


It does not. Its still a single sentence. A dot would separate it.

The definition of a semicolon from wikipedia says :

In the English language, a semicolon is most commonly used to link (in a single sentence) two independent clauses that are closely related in thought. When a semicolon joins two or more ideas in one sentence, those ideas are then given equal rank.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The semicolon in the quote separates the powers range from the powers effect.


It does not.

False. It actually does, not sure why you think it does not, given you posted the bit about the semicolon, specifically "two independent clauses" and "two or more ideas"
Its still a single sentence. A dot would separate it.
True, but that does not matter. a semicolon separates "two independent clauses" or "two or more ideas"
The definition of a semicolon from wikipedia says :
In the English language, a semicolon is most commonly used to link (in a single sentence) two independent clauses that are closely related in thought. When a semicolon joins two or more ideas in one sentence, those ideas are then given equal rank.

In this case, the first bit is independent of the second bit in the same sentence.

Two ideas, two independent clauses. One is the range of the power, the stuff after the semicolon is not the range, as by definition it is a different idea.

Your statements are not correct P5.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

The buff applies to the range, not to the 3” effect radius. As many others have said.

If p5 doesn’t understand how semicolons work there’s no point debating one of his daft tangents. Dogmatically wrong as ever.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




That does seem to be the RAI JohnnyHell, but the 3" is still a range used when resolving the psychic power, just like the 12".
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
That does seem to be the RAI JohnnyHell, but the 3" is still a range used when resolving the psychic power, just like the 12".
12 inches is the range of Infernal Gateway.

Since you can cast the power at a target over 3 inches away, that can not be the range of the power. (Basic English comprehension tells us this).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
That does seem to be the RAI JohnnyHell, but the 3" is still a range used when resolving the psychic power, just like the 12".
12 inches is the range of Infernal Gateway.

Since you can cast the power at a target over 3 inches away, that can not be the range of the power. (Basic English comprehension tells us this).
Then why can Infernal Gateway affect enemy units 15" away if it's range is only 12"? Maybe there is a composition of factors that affect it's overall range.

As per "Basic English comprehension": Infernal Gateway uses two ranges to identify affected models/units. You have the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
That does seem to be the RAI JohnnyHell, but the 3" is still a range used when resolving the psychic power, just like the 12".
12 inches is the range of Infernal Gateway.

Since you can cast the power at a target over 3 inches away, that can not be the range of the power. (Basic English comprehension tells us this).
Then why can Infernal Gateway affect enemy units 15" away if it's range is only 12"? Maybe there is a composition of factors that affect it's overall range.
Infernal Gateway can affect enemy units 15" away because it has a range of 12" and has an effect that goes 3 inches from that target.

As per "Basic English comprehension": Infernal Gateway uses two ranges to identify affected models/units. You have the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model.
Uses two ranges does not = the range of the power.

As per "Basic English comprehension" the range of the power is at what distance the power can target a unit.

If you do not want your original question answered, why even ask?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/26 01:40:08


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect. So you can add to the 12" range of the spell but not to the 3" area of effect. There is no "range" in the second part of the sentence merely a statement of what happens to the target.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect. So you can add to the 12" range of the spell but not to the 3" area of effect. There is no "range" in the second part of the sentence merely a statement of what happens to the target.
100% this.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect.


Citation please.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect.


Citation please.
Basic English comprehension.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/26 09:34:37


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect.


Citation please.
Basic English comprehension.
Basic English comprehension says that both 12" and 3" are ranges.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect.


Citation please.
Basic English comprehension.
Basic English comprehension says that both 12" and 3" are ranges.
But they are not both "the range of the first psychic power manifested by your Warlord"

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

JakeSiren wrote:
That does seem to be the RAI JohnnyHell, but the 3" is still a range used when resolving the psychic power, just like the 12".


It’s how the rule works. You can refute it and post similar after every person posting what I posted but it doesn’t change that this is how it works. Gonna be a long, useless thread if you refute consensus.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect.


Citation please.
Basic English comprehension.
Basic English comprehension says that both 12" and 3" are ranges.
But they are not both "the range of the first psychic power manifested by your Warlord"
Infernal Gateway has two range components and, as much as I like repeating myself, I'll just quote what I said earlier.
JakeSiren wrote:
As per "Basic English comprehension": Infernal Gateway uses two ranges to identify affected models/units. You have the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
That does seem to be the RAI JohnnyHell, but the 3" is still a range used when resolving the psychic power, just like the 12".


It’s how the rule works. You can refute it and post similar after every person posting what I posted but it doesn’t change that this is how it works. Gonna be a long, useless thread if you refute consensus.
Thanks for participating then I guess?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/26 10:48:31


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One is the range of the spell. The other is its area of effect.


Citation please.
Basic English comprehension.
Basic English comprehension says that both 12" and 3" are ranges.


Agreed.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Let me put it this way. If I had a weapon that stated it could be shot up to 12" and it put down a 3" diameter template would you then be saying- that it could hit a target 18" away from you and the template now would be 9" in diameter?

Since GW has never defined "range" in an official sense we need to find a common ground using (appearantly not so) common sense. When someone is discussing the range of a weapon they are speaking about the distance from the weapon to the target. They are not talking about the effect on the target but, only the distance between the weapon and the target. It doesn't matter what type of weapon is being discussed. If I say the range of a water pistol is 12" then it is understood by most of us that means that I can't effect someone more than 12" away from the pistol. If I said the range of a cannon was 12 miles then it would be understood that I couldn't hit a target beyond 12 miles away. If I then said that I could increase the range of my weapon by 50% it would then normally be understood that I could hit you with my water pistol if the target was 18" away now or that my cannon could now hit a target 18 miles away. It would not mean that my target would get hit by more water at any range nor that my shell would be more explosive. Those are represented by a different term "area of effect" or "effectiveness".

Let me put this a different way. If I increased the range of a missile by 50% that doesn't mean that I increased the effectiveness of its warhead. It means that it does the same damage but now the target can be farther away from the launcher.

For those of you wishing a "citation" since GW doesn't publish a glossary of terms for 40K you win. I can't show you an official definition of "range".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/26 12:10:14


 
   
 
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