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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




My mate has recently started using Magnus the red in our skirmishes usually around 1000 point armies each, we are fairly new to the game so we just have our armies fight or capture a point.

He has used him in 5 games and won all 5 by a long shot, I've only been able to kill him once but the rolls were heavily in my favour and he still wiped out 90% of my army and just cleaned up with his other units.

My question is, is there a rule or anything that stops him using a God like unit when my strongest unit is a regular Deamon Prince, or are the only limitations points?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 13:35:48


 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Your text is unreadable.
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle






That is some small writing.

There's nothing stopping your friend running him apart from social etiquette.

If he carries on playing like this then I doubt you'll be wanting to play with him indefinitely. It's in his interests to add a bit of variety to the mix and maybe not go all in with a list you both know you can't compete with.

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






There's no restrictions but your friend is being a gakhead. So call them out on being a gakhead and tell them you won't play against Magnus in games less than 2k points.
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





BigShotBeale wrote:
My mate has recently started using Magnus the red in our skirmishes usually around 1000 point armies each, we are fairly new to the game so we just have our armies fight or capture a point.

He has used him in 5 games and won all 5 by a long shot, I've only been able to kill him once but the rolls were heavily in my favour and he still wiped out 90% of my army and just cleaned up with his other units.

My question is, is there a rule or anything that stops him using a God like unit when my strongest unit is a regular Deamon Prince, or are the only limitations points?

Firstly, please don't modify the size of text. The dakka interface is already pretty unfriendly to mobile users, no need to make it worse.

For your question... Yes, your friend is within his rights to play Magnus in the sense that it's allowed by the rules of the game, as long as he's paying the points / power for him and (if you're playing narrative or matched play) meeting detachment criteria.

However, it's a game, and is supposed to be fun for both players. If having a big centrepiece model like Magnus makes the game unfun for you, the game is not achieving its objective. I'd recommend talking with your friend, explaining why Magnus is an issue, and asking him to use a different list at these point levels - one without such a game-skewing unit. Then as you build back up, your friend can reintroduce Magnus at a more appropriate point level once your army has the capacity to deal with him - probably at around 1750-2000 pts.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Yeah, if your army doesn't work, don't build a good army or switch to another good one, but rather use social pressure, for your "friend" who bought his model, for his legal army with his own money, to not use him until the model gets heavil nerfed, becomes illegal or your army reaches a state where you can ignore or kill him easily.

All of this will make your friend appriciate the 160$ he has spend. For the future I advocate setting up a rule where there is a collective that decides what ever someone can buy and use certain models.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

No rules against it. Honestly, Magnus isn't that good (though recently got some big buffs) and you'll have less of a worry against him once you reach 2000pt lists. If you want to be nonconfrontational about it, I would say you should prioritize to pushing to higher points value games so that Magnus impact on your games is diluted and he becomes less of a factor. If you do want to address the issue more directly, then theres no rule disallowing your opponent from using him but you can just refuse to play him unless he subs out Magnus for something else.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Skew lists are not fun, but if he built his list correctly, they are legal.

You could as others suggested talk to him about it, and get him to mix up his lists a bit so the game is more fun for both of you.

List tailor against him. Not sure what you have available.

Play other missions. If he’s got all his eggs in one basket, it’s going to be very hard for him to hold multiple points on the battlefield. Big centerpiece models are fine for one big fight in the middle, but if he’s just capping one objective while you are getting 2 each tuen, you will win on VPs.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





"To beat THAT GUY you must first become THAT GUY."

I don't usually advocate large models but in this case I'd treat myself to an auxilary Chaos Knight, even if only a pair of Wardogs. Apparently the new CK Codex has new rules to allow this without sacrificing your (chaos) faction's perks.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

A few thoughts

1) As noted above make sure you're starting to include objectives in the game. Warhammer games work better when you include victory points and objectives and such outside of straight killing.

2) Ignore Magnus. Sometimes a super powered models can be ignored. As noted above, if he's sitting on one objective you put your army on the other two then you are winning on victory points.

3) Counter. If he's taking one big model every time or one selection of models; building an army that counters that model and is designed to inflict maximum damage upon them (or resist their attacks) is a very valid strategy.

3) Stall. Often called tarpitting this is when you get a unit that won't kill the powerful unit, but will last a good long while, often in close combat. The idea here is that you run that unit up, get into close combat and leave them tangled up for a few turns. Sacrificing your unit to tie up the power of their army for a few turns.
This can be a very effective counter



Finally its perfectly fine in the pre-game phase (perhaps before the game day if he doesn't bring all his collection with him each evening) to say that you're not finding it as fun to play against his army/unit and that perhaps he could change things up a bit. You know he'll win with Magnus so lets change things for some variety.

It's perfectly fair in open casual games outside of a tournament setting to do that.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
Yeah, if your army doesn't work, don't build a good army or switch to another good one, but rather use social pressure, for your "friend" who bought his model, for his legal army with his own money, to not use him until the model gets heavil nerfed, becomes illegal or your army reaches a state where you can ignore or kill him easily.

All of this will make your friend appriciate the 160$ he has spend. For the future I advocate setting up a rule where there is a collective that decides what ever someone can buy and use certain models.


The problem with this approach is if these players have no other opponents (which may be the case, by the sound of it) the end result is neither playing the game. It's perfectly acceptable to ask someone not to bring such a skew model in smaller points games. The opponent can decide to still bring Magnus but will then potentially have to suffer the consequences of doing so.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





BigShotBeale wrote:
My mate has recently started using Magnus the red in our skirmishes usually around 1000 point armies each, we are fairly new to the game so we just have our armies fight or capture a point.

He has used him in 5 games and won all 5 by a long shot, I've only been able to kill him once but the rolls were heavily in my favour and he still wiped out 90% of my army and just cleaned up with his other units.

My question is, is there a rule or anything that stops him using a God like unit when my strongest unit is a regular Deamon Prince, or are the only limitations points?


You probably need to do some list tailoring. What is your army?
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Yes he is within his right, and also magnus sucks so. He is really not that hard to kill, as he is only T7 and is living on a 4++

Bring basically anything that is designed for any armor and watch him fall over dead.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yes he is within his right, and also magnus sucks so. He is really not that hard to kill, as he is only T7 and is living on a 4++

Bring basically anything that is designed for any armor and watch him fall over dead.


Yea...he isn't THAT easy to kill. Especially not at 1K.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yes he is within his right, and also magnus sucks so. He is really not that hard to kill, as he is only T7 and is living on a 4++

Bring basically anything that is designed for any armor and watch him fall over dead.


Yea...he isn't THAT easy to kill. Especially not at 1K.

Oh ill give you that, but if his friend is constantly showing up with magnus, its within reason he can or should be dedicating some points in his army to deal specificall with magnus, and lets be honest, magnus falls over dead pretty damn quick if you devote any attention to specifically killing him.
Not sure the army he is playing but even something as cheap as a squad of devs with laz canons can ruin his day from across the board, or hell if he really wants to meme on him, bring a Celuxus assassin and just grin as you ask him what psyker powers :3

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yes he is within his right, and also magnus sucks so. He is really not that hard to kill, as he is only T7 and is living on a 4++

Bring basically anything that is designed for any armor and watch him fall over dead.


Yea...he isn't THAT easy to kill. Especially not at 1K.

Agreed. At 1k he's easily able to remove a lot of the threats to him so he can dominate the table. The problem with any kind of extreme skew involving single powerful models is the game often revolves around those models. Either they wreck everything with impunity or they get killed early and the game is a non-event.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh ill give you that, but if his friend is constantly showing up with magnus, its within reason he can or should be dedicating some points in his army to deal specificall with magnus, and lets be honest, magnus falls over dead pretty damn quick if you devote any attention to specifically killing him.
Not sure the army he is playing but even something as cheap as a squad of devs with laz canons can ruin his day from across the board, or hell if he really wants to meme on him, bring a Celuxus assassin and just grin as you ask him what psyker powers :3

You seemed to have missed the bit where the OP says they are new to the game, dedicating their army to killing Magnus isn't necessarily an option whereas not using Magnus is a much easier one to solve for both parties.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Wait, why is it 'not necessarily an option' for one player to modify their army but it is for the other? Replacing Magnus with other stuff would be as big or bigger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 15:06:59


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Voss wrote:
Wait, why is it 'not necessarily an option' for one player to modify their army but it is for the other?

While you're right to say that's an unwarranted assumption, I think the fact still remains the game is probably going to be more satisfying for both as a whole without Magnus, for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Voss wrote:
Wait, why is it 'not necessarily an option' for one player to modify their army but it is for the other?

How much would it cost to rededicate the army to killing Magnus compared to the Tsons player just not using Magnus?
The OP said Magnus only showed up recently implying Magnus wasn't there from the start, which indicates to me that the Tsons player has access to units to fill the Magnus-sized hole in the list. The other option would be the OP buying a load of new units to remake their current army just to kill one model that could just be politely removed until larger games are played so both players don't end up with anybody to do 40k with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 15:11:06


 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Gert wrote:
Voss wrote:
Wait, why is it 'not necessarily an option' for one player to modify their army but it is for the other?

How much would it cost to rededicate the army to killing Magnus compared to the Tsons player just not using Magnus?
The OP said Magnus only showed up recently implying Magnus wasn't there from the start, which indicates to me that the Tsons player has access to units to fill the Magnus-sized hole in the list. The other option would be the OP buying a load of new units to remake their current army just to kill one model that could just be politely removed until larger games are played so both players don't end up with anybody to do 40k with.


I mean a single box of devs is like what 50 bucks? a psyker assassin that can nulify his power is like 30 bucks
We are not telling him to buy a knight granted a volcano lance will ruin his day.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Backspacehacker wrote:
I mean a single box of devs is like what 50 bucks? a psyker assassin that can nulify his power is like 30 bucks
We are not telling him to buy a knight granted a volcano lance will ruin his day.

A single unit of Devastators isn't going to kill Magnus and AFAIK Caleuxus don't stop all Psychic Powers nor do I even know where one would buy the rules (I don't care about your opinion on piracy take it somewhere else).
Regardless of this, the OP has to buy new models to be able to fight something that can be replaced until both players have reached a level where a Daemon Primarch isn't going to cause one player to lose every single game. It's hardly fair.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Gert wrote:
Voss wrote:
Wait, why is it 'not necessarily an option' for one player to modify their army but it is for the other?

How much would it cost to rededicate the army to killing Magnus compared to the Tsons player just not using Magnus?
The OP said Magnus only showed up recently implying Magnus wasn't there from the start, which indicates to me that the Tsons player has access to units to fill the Magnus-sized hole in the list. The other option would be the OP buying a load of new units to remake their current army just to kill one model that could just be politely removed until larger games are played so both players don't end up with anybody to do 40k with.


He said they recently started using Magnus in skirmishes around 1000 points, and that they're both fairly new.
Magnus may well be how the TS player _got_ to 1000 points.

Its just interesting how people spin that change is one player's obligation over another's. And that its somehow inherently more 'fair.'

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in fr
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





If it's impossible for the TS player to reach 1000 points without Maggy I'd suggest playing a row of 500 points Crusade games. They're really fun, don't take a lot of time and neither has to rush building up (though a good crusade campaign usually pushes players to continue building and painting).
And, yeah, he also shouldn't use Magnus in these 500 points games either even if he could

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 15:37:41


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Unfortunately, bad game balance is the player's fault this edition, OP, so he is within his right and it is your (plural) fault for the bad balance since you (plural) can't agree beforehand on what the game balance of 40k should be.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Voss wrote:
He said they recently started using Magnus in skirmishes around 1000 points, and that they're both fairly new.
Magnus may well be how the TS player _got_ to 1000 points.

You read it like that and I read it the way I did. The OP can clarify.

Its just interesting how people spin that change is one player's obligation over another's. And that its somehow inherently more 'fair.'

It's not "spin", its opinion. And yes I do think that people should take into consideration that bringing the biggest and best thing in your Codex to games where both players are learning the game, might be a gakky thing to do. My old beginners club (which was at a GW shop) had to change its rules of "1 HQ, 2 Troops, and 1 something else" to be more specific because people started showing up with Shadowswords and Stompas.
I dunno, I just think people should maybe not only ever just think about themselves but I guess that's a pretty rare opinion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 15:43:20


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




I dunno, I just think people should maybe not only ever just think about themselves but I guess that's a pretty rare opinion.

Not at all, but I find it funny that somehow it doesn't apply both ways.

Or that opinion isn't the basis of spin. That's a fun fact for the day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 15:47:40


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Gert wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
I mean a single box of devs is like what 50 bucks? a psyker assassin that can nulify his power is like 30 bucks
We are not telling him to buy a knight granted a volcano lance will ruin his day.

A single unit of Devastators isn't going to kill Magnus and AFAIK Caleuxus don't stop all Psychic Powers nor do I even know where one would buy the rules (I don't care about your opinion on piracy take it somewhere else).
Regardless of this, the OP has to buy new models to be able to fight something that can be replaced until both players have reached a level where a Daemon Primarch isn't going to cause one player to lose every single game. It's hardly fair.


Whos bringing up piracy?
Im not saying they are gonna one shot magnus but they can bracket him quickly.
My whole point is there are cheap, both monetary and point, options for things you can bring that can specifically make magnus have a really bad time.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I don't think Magnus needs to be removed.

We need additional info to guide this, but effectively Magnus can kill stuff right in front of him and what he can charge. Doombolt and Smite are closest visible and will be the majority of his MW output. Good positioning will keep him from wrecking important units right away. The same goes for what targets are made available for charging.

Then I'd TRY and focus on his obsec and go after mission points and just generally pick secondaries that have you all over the table. Magnus is fast especially on a small table, but he can't be in four corners all at once and have visibility to everything.

Without more detail from the OP this is probably the limit for advice.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Voss wrote:
Not at all, but I find it funny that somehow it doesn't apply both ways.

OP seems to be the one getting shafted by someone who's taking a very powerful unit in low-point games. Not sure how the dude winning every game they play with Magnus is having problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
Im not saying they are gonna one shot magnus but they can bracket him quickly.
My whole point is there are cheap, both monetary and point, options for things you can bring that can specifically make magnus have a really bad time.

And my point is that from my reading of the OPs post the Tsons player doesn't have to bring Magnus but chooses to. So the Tsons player could be asked to swap it out for stuff that would make the game more enjoyable for the OP at no monetary value, whereas your option has the OP spending money.
Personally I think telling people to buy more stuff to fix a problem that only requires a conversation between friends is a bit silly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/27 15:53:56


 
   
 
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