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Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I'm wracking my brain, but when I think of legions during the Horus Heresy that might lean heavily into armored warfare it's the Iron Warriors and the Death Guard that come to mind. Well, them and the Iron Hands before they lost almost all their war assets. Maybe the White Scars? They like mobile warfare if not mechanized warfare. Am I missing something?

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Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






Of the loyalist legions that would lean heavily into armored warfare I would say:

Imperial Fists - loyalist version of Iron Warriors, defensive fighters and siege fighters so big guns a plus

Iron Hands - Flesh is Weak

Salamanders - Slow and methodical, big chassis means big meltas and flammers
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Dark Angels used to have a formation dedicated to armoured warfare in the form of the Iron Wing, the counterpart to the Deathwing and the Ravenwing.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ironwing

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

The Ultramarines also had a formation dedicated to armoured warfare that became the Aurora chapter after the Second Founding. Every legion had some heavy formations, even the Raven Guard and Night Lords.

But yeah, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders for heavy armour, White Scars for light armour. The Iron Hands in particular were known for their armoured set piece warfare.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/07 18:32:37


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I would say that the loyalist legions were so big, Except the EC, that you can choose your fave legion and just run their armoured division
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






mrFickle wrote:
I would say that the loyalist legions were so big, Except the EC, that you can choose your fave legion and just run their armoured division

All the Legions were large enough that they very easily had entire Companies, if not Chapters, of armoured forces.
I would like to point out to the OP that while the Iron Hands were dealt a heavy blow at Istvaan V, they suffered the least out of the three Legions as Ferrus Manus essentially launched his assault with a small fraction of the 10th compared to the majority of the Salamanders and Raven Guard. Post-Istvaan the Iron Hands still had many large forces running about.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

 Gert wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I would say that the loyalist legions were so big, Except the EC, that you can choose your fave legion and just run their armoured division

All the Legions were large enough that they very easily had entire Companies, if not Chapters, of armoured forces.
I would like to point out to the OP that while the Iron Hands were dealt a heavy blow at Istvaan V, they suffered the least out of the three Legions as Ferrus Manus essentially launched his assault with a small fraction of the 10th compared to the majority of the Salamanders and Raven Guard. Post-Istvaan the Iron Hands still had many large forces running about.


Ah, I see. The Horus Heresy books gave me the impression that they were a broken force dependent upon guerilla warfare.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Some portions yes, but all of the Isstvan Loyalists had large enough forces that they were capable of operating like a regular Legion.
It's important to remember that while the majority of these Legions did fall on Isstvan, there were still companies and expeditions present elsewhere in the galaxy. Indeed while the Iron Hands lost their Primarch and most of the Avernii Clan, they remained a fairly large Legion and were at the forefront of the Shatter Legions. The Iron Hands appeared all over the Imperium from Baal and Molech to Terra itself at the Siege. Many Salamanders infamously gathered under the leadership of Cassian Dracos who led a form of religious redemption crusade against the Traitors from the Forge World of Mezoa which supplied the Astartes with many advanced weapons and vehicles, including Superheavies. The Raven Guard regrouped on Deliverance, with Corax rapidly rebuilding the Legion and taking the fight back to the Traitors, where they even went on to save the Space Wolves and Leman Russ at the battle of Yarant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/07 20:53:14


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Mr Nobody wrote:
 Gert wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I would say that the loyalist legions were so big, Except the EC, that you can choose your fave legion and just run their armoured division

All the Legions were large enough that they very easily had entire Companies, if not Chapters, of armoured forces.
I would like to point out to the OP that while the Iron Hands were dealt a heavy blow at Istvaan V, they suffered the least out of the three Legions as Ferrus Manus essentially launched his assault with a small fraction of the 10th compared to the majority of the Salamanders and Raven Guard. Post-Istvaan the Iron Hands still had many large forces running about.


Ah, I see. The Horus Heresy books gave me the impression that they were a broken force dependent upon guerilla warfare.


Manus only took the troops he had on hand after expressing his 'disagreement' with Fulgrim for the first drop, the rest of the 10th had to catch up. What broke the Iron Hands wasn't legion casualties, but the fact that Manus died, though most of the legionaries he took with him also didn't make it.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Isn't the paucity of Chaos vehicles a function of 10,000 years without having access to factory worlds?

I mean, the closer you are to the Heresy, the closer the equipment would be between loyal and traitor legions.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 Mr Nobody wrote:
I'm wracking my brain, but when I think of legions during the Horus Heresy that might lean heavily into armored warfare it's the Iron Warriors and the Death Guard that come to mind. Well, them and the Iron Hands before they lost almost all their war assets. Maybe the White Scars? They like mobile warfare if not mechanized warfare. Am I missing something?


Just wanted to clear something up: the Death Guard is said to be one of the Legions with least use of vehicles. They do use Dreadnoughts and siege guns like the Vindicator or Fellblades in bigger numbers, but anything else, not really (at least not in outstanding numbers). Mortarion wanted his guys to advance inexorably through gas, poison and radiation and that's what they did, hence they had one of the highest attrition rates.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 Mr Nobody wrote:
I'm wracking my brain, but when I think of legions during the Horus Heresy that might lean heavily into armored warfare it's the Iron Warriors and the Death Guard that come to mind. Well, them and the Iron Hands before they lost almost all their war assets. Maybe the White Scars? They like mobile warfare if not mechanized warfare. Am I missing something?


Just wanted to clear something up: the Death Guard is said to be one of the Legions with least use of vehicles. They do use Dreadnoughts and siege guns like the Vindicator or Fellblades in bigger numbers, but anything else, not really (at least not in outstanding numbers). Mortarion wanted his guys to advance inexorably through gas, poison and radiation and that's what they did, hence they had one of the highest attrition rates.

Good catch, didn't notice this the first time round.

Yes, the Death Guard were all about elite, versatile line infantry. Death Guard legionaries are typically well equipped with boltgun, bolt pistol, and close combat weapon.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Pretty much any.

Remember the Legions were vast. Whilst the resulting, post-Heresy Chapters might lean heavily toward a specific form of warfare, every Legion was an all-rounder, just with different areas of expertise and specialisation.

Even White Scars and World Eaters would still have included armoured companies, because whilst off doing Compliance, each Legion had to be able to tackle any theatre of war that they might encounter. Especially if they weren’t directly attached to their Primarch’s own fleet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Isn't the paucity of Chaos vehicles a function of 10,000 years without having access to factory worlds?

I mean, the closer you are to the Heresy, the closer the equipment would be between loyal and traitor legions.


Kind of. Traitors do have production capacity of their own, and for anything else there’s the Dark Mechanicum (god that needs a new name!). Whereas Loyalists have the flexibility and sheer resources of the entire Imperium.

Yes both still have to strike bargains and compacts, but The Imperium has lots of options there, and many such compacts can stretch back to The Great Crusade itself.

Traitors hence favour more robust equipment. Yes they could maintain a Kratos or Sicaran - but if that’s the price of say, fixing up 3 Predators? You’re more likely to go with the Predators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/23 14:10:28


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Traitors hence favour more robust equipment. Yes they could maintain a Kratos or Sicaran - but if that’s the price of say, fixing up 3 Predators? You’re more likely to go with the Predators.


Yeah, I'm a bit out of date on the latest offerings.

I do like the notion of Chaos having to salvage and jury-rig equipment over the ages, and my Chaos Marines have an almost orky flavor to them, though I try to keep some level of standardization.

You are correct about the legions - they were fully self-contained fighting forces, albeit with certain areas of doctrinal emphasis, so there's a plausible case for just about any amount of vehicles, particularly in normal scale 40k games.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Isn't the paucity of Chaos vehicles a function of 10,000 years without having access to factory worlds?

Yup. And that's why canon explanation of why CSM Rhino/Land Raider are of new patterns, not 30K ones - they were looted off loyalists as the original Legion vehicle pool is mostly long gone. The fact that these are easier to repair and maintain is extra plus, too.

Which is why Fanfiction Marine whining that they need to (gasp!) pay 1 CP to field this virtually impossible to maintain, priceless 30K vehicle is so sad (and hilarious) - if you can't get spare parts for 10.000 years, it doesn't matter how good the vehicle was, it's junk by now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kind of. Traitors do have production capacity of their own, and for anything else there’s the Dark Mechanicum (god that needs a new name!).

Erm, not really. You see in books all CSM legions have problems procuring even such simple stuff as power armour glove and some even carefully comb battlefields for spent bolt casings to pick them up and reload later. If a band is lucky enough to have a factory ship or something, they have capability to produce a few items, for everything else, it's still looting time. Maybe Iron Warriors built some industry in meantime, but seeing it's virtually impossible to run precise manufacturing on daemon worlds where your tooling grows new faces overnight I kind of doubt it did them much good.

As for Dark Mechanicum, they not only demand exorbitant prices, most of their sales is in the form of war machines that don't require maintenance or steady stream of parts to keep running (what Fanfiction Marines affectionately call 'dinobots') - simply because you don't need to keep paying more and more just to field that tank that needs to abandoned and lost forever if it breaks during a raid. And even if your local Dark Mechanicum rep wanted to build old, boring items they did in 30K, not only they would run into above issue IW have, but they also lost their Forge Worlds during HH along with all machinery and knowledge they held, so any replacement they built elsewhere would logically be even more degenerated and deprived than Admech is and would need to stuff daemons and sorcery into items to merely make them work...
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Bit of both.

Traitors are likely more on the “waste not, want not, mend and make do” end of the spectrum. Every casing picked up, every gubbins claimed from the dead or looted from the enemy, is One Less Thing You Need To Replace Yourself.

Given the end of the Heresy, and how hard the surviving Loyalist drove the Traitors into the Eye of Terror, it’s quite possibly a behaviour from antiquity. A habit formed from former necessity, as when defeated during the Scourging, if you lost a battle you had little to no chance to recover or salvage from the battlefield.

Doesn’t matter if say, the casings are squished beyond redemption, it’s still the brass (or whatever) that’s important. Melt it down, recast it whole and fresh. Scrimp, scrimp, scrimp.

Compared to Loyalists, Chaos and Traitor forces simply don’t appear to have the same logistics. But they do have logistics, and capacity to make new things. But with few if any fixed bases of operation, recovering what you can is the first order after a win.

This is actually one of my favourite topics in 40K. Not saying that as a “so don’t you argue with me” thing. More a “I really bloody love discussing this under represented in the background topic” way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/23 16:52:46


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Irbis wrote:
[
Erm, not really. You see in books all CSM legions have problems procuring even such simple stuff as power armour glove and some even carefully comb battlefields for spent bolt casings to pick them up and reload later. If a band is lucky enough to have a factory ship or something, they have capability to produce a few items, for everything else, it's still looting time. Maybe Iron Warriors built some industry in meantime, but seeing it's virtually impossible to run precise manufacturing on daemon worlds where your tooling grows new faces overnight I kind of doubt it did them much good.


This is why I often have my Chaos Marines models use Imperial arms - they lost the power armor vambrace and get can't another. I also make a point of mixing my model types. Part of this was of necessity - when I (re)built my Chaos Marines, the old Imperial plastics were super-cheap. So what I did was mix them in with Chaos bits to create kind of a half-and-half look.

I'll have to post photos of my new run of Chaos Rhinos - I used GW bits to accent them, but its a different pattern made out of kit-bashed tank kits. They have a uniform look, but the details are all different since each is basically spot-welded together with what they could find.

Our current campaign is about Chaos having captured an Imperial world specifically to look its industrial resources and manufacture parts and gear, as well is conscripting recruits for psycho-surgery. What they don't know is that it used to be an Exodite world and the Eldar on the way to protect the spirit stones before the Chaos Sorcerors find them...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/23 19:46:13


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
 
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