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Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






How many command points can you get per turn with these relics? For some reason, I am under the impression you can only get one but the faq for Astra Militarum makes it seem as if that is not the case. (I quoted GW FAQ below)

Page 138 – Kurov’s Aquila
Change the second sentence of rules text to read:
‘Whilst the bearer is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time your
opponent uses a Stratagem.’

Page 140 – Grand Strategist
Change the second and third sentences of rules text to read
‘In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and this Warlord
is on the battlefield, roll a D6 for each Command Point you
spend to use a Stratagem; on a 5+ that Command Point is
immediately refunded.’

   
Made in gb
Beast of Nurgle





There is an overall limit that means you cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battle round. You can keep trying to regain or refund until you succeed, but once you've done that you have to wait until the next battle round.

The rules are under "Gaining and refunding command points" on page 245 of the core rule book (this is the "Battle-Forged Armies" section which isn't available in either the rules PDF or the Mission Pack books).

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 PlagueGardener wrote:
There is an overall limit that means you cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battle round. You can keep trying to regain or refund until you succeed, but once you've done that you have to wait until the next battle round.

The rules are under "Gaining and refunding command points" on page 245 of the core rule book (this is the "Battle-Forged Armies" section which isn't available in either the rules PDF or the Mission Pack books).


That's not accurate; the limit of 1 per round only applies to effects which trigger upon stratagems being used.
   
Made in gb
Beast of Nurgle





Hecaton wrote:
That's not accurate; the limit of 1 per round only applies to effects which trigger upon stratagems being used.


I believe that it applies to all things other than the specified exceptions ("Battle-forged CP bonus and CPs gained at start of Command phase via mission special rules are exempt from this limit.").

So, for example, the Death Guard's Tallyman has an abillity which can (50:50 chance) generate a CP in the command phase, meaning it could possibly generate 2 in a battle round. But that's bound by this 1CP limit as are other odd things that generate CP outside of stratagem use.

   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

You can only gain or refund 1 CP per battleround, except for the battleforged CP bonus, mission rules and stratagems.

GAINING AND REFUNDING COMMAND POINTS
There are several rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagems or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle’ or ‘at the end of the battle round’, can never be refunded. The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.


STRATAGEMS THAT GAIN OR REFUND CPS
The advanced rules for Command points state that you cannot gain, or have refunded, more than 1 Command point per battle round because of any rules (other than via the exceptions listed here, such as the Battle-forged CP Bonus). However, there are a small handful of Stratagems that let players gain or refund several Command points when used (e.g. Feeder Tendrils in Codex: Tyranids). So long as such a Stratagem is used during a phase (i.e. it is not used ‘before the battle’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’), the limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command point per battle round does not apply to any Command points gained via Stratagems.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Is that Matched Play specific?

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in gb
Beast of Nurgle





 Blndmage wrote:
Is that Matched Play specific?


The limit is in the "Battle-Forged Armies" section of the rules, page 244 onwards, they apply any time that you have a battle forged army. The rules are not from the Matched Play section of the book or any of the mission packs. Those things will tell you to muster a battle forged army, and the limitation is is the bit of the rules that tells you what that is.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 PlagueGardener wrote:
I believe that it applies to all things other than the specified exceptions ("Battle-forged CP bonus and CPs gained at start of Command phase via mission special rules are exempt from this limit.").


Not really accurate. It's written to *only* apply to CP gained or refunded upon playing Stratagems.

 PlagueGardener wrote:
So, for example, the Death Guard's Tallyman has an abillity which can (50:50 chance) generate a CP in the command phase, meaning it could possibly generate 2 in a battle round. But that's bound by this 1CP limit as are other odd things that generate CP outside of stratagem use.


I believe there's specific errata for the Tallyman to limit it to one per round (though the errata is worded in such a way that I get how you would make the interpretation above).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
You can only gain or refund 1 CP per battleround, except for the battleforged CP bonus, mission rules and stratagems.


Incorrect. There are warlord traits and abilities (like the "Player of the Twilight" warlord trait's first part) that give you CP that aren't constrained by that limit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/19 01:50:56


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Hecaton wrote:


Incorrect. There are warlord traits and abilities (like the "Player of the Twilight" warlord trait's first part) that give you CP that aren't constrained by that limit.


Citation please.
   
Made in gb
Beast of Nurgle





Hecaton wrote:
Not really accurate. It's written to *only* apply to CP gained or refunded upon playing Stratagems.


I don't think that it is written that way, the text for the rule is a bit of a word salad but the bullet points clearly state "Cannot gain or refund more than 1 CP per battle round."

Further the FAQs for the core rules also backs the bullet point: "The advanced rules for Command points state that you cannot gain, or have refunded, more than 1 Command point per battle round because of any rules (other than via the exceptions listed on page 245, such as the Battle-forged CP Bonus)".

This is also how I've seen this rule interpreted in many other places, for example on a Goonhammer analysis of CPs (https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-refunding-command-points/).

Hecaton wrote:
I believe there's specific errata for the Tallyman to limit it to one per round (though the errata is worded in such a way that I get how you would make the interpretation above).


There's nothing in the Death Guard FAQ that adds such a specific errata, is there something in the core book that covers it?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


Incorrect. There are warlord traits and abilities (like the "Player of the Twilight" warlord trait's first part) that give you CP that aren't constrained by that limit.


Citation please.


The original rule. It was quoted in this thread; the 1 cp limit only applies with respect to rules thst refund or give you cp when a stratagem is played.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 PlagueGardener wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Not really accurate. It's written to *only* apply to CP gained or refunded upon playing Stratagems.


I don't think that it is written that way, the text for the rule is a bit of a word salad but the bullet points clearly state "Cannot gain or refund more than 1 CP per battle round."

Further the FAQs for the core rules also backs the bullet point: "The advanced rules for Command points state that you cannot gain, or have refunded, more than 1 Command point per battle round because of any rules (other than via the exceptions listed on page 245, such as the Battle-forged CP Bonus)".

This is also how I've seen this rule interpreted in many other places, for example on a Goonhammer analysis of CPs (https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-refunding-command-points/).

Hecaton wrote:
I believe there's specific errata for the Tallyman to limit it to one per round (though the errata is worded in such a way that I get how you would make the interpretation above).


There's nothing in the Death Guard FAQ that adds such a specific errata, is there something in the core book that covers it?


The bullet points are a summary. The rule explains in more detail when it applies. The FAQ is in error as it incorrectly references the core rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/20 06:53:22


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

You cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battleround, regardless of the source. The only exceptions to this rule have been quoted here. Warlord traits are not exempted from this limit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/20 08:00:18


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Hecaton - while you may think that, it isn't true. The rule goes on to state a blanket limit of 1cp a turn, and the rare rules further confirms it with the exception for strats that refund multiple.

You haven't found a loophole no one has seen. It is t happening. It isn't happening at a flgs and it is t happening at a tournament.
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

I do belive at the time of the 'strat exception' tyranids had a 1cp strat that gave you 1d3 cp. (A tentacle monster killing a character in melee.) I do believe SW also had a brain eating stratagem that gave 1 CP. Both of those are gone, but the rule remain.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




World Eaters still has the extra d3 cp strat, and I believe assassins have one as well for killing the enemy warlord.
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Yeah. It just seemed silly to spend 1 cp to gain 1 cp max.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Rare rules takes care of that. You can gain more than the limit.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hecaton - while you may think that, it isn't true. The rule goes on to state a blanket limit of 1cp a turn, and the rare rules further confirms it with the exception for strats that refund multiple.

You haven't found a loophole no one has seen. It is t happening. It isn't happening at a flgs and it is t happening at a tournament.


It isn't a loophole, it's the rules as written. And yes, it happens at LGS's and it happens at tournaments.

The rules do not go on to state anything; the bullet points are a summary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
You cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battleround, regardless of the source. The only exceptions to this rule have been quoted here. Warlord traits are not exempted from this limit.


Incorrect. The rules do not state this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/21 07:20:19


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I guess you kissed the part that stated the limit of one cp per battle round. Own sentence.

Which tournaments? Good to know which ones are breaking the rules, so we can avoid them.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Tournaments can make their own rules, those are house rules, and have nothing to do with GWs rules.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




nosferatu1001 wrote:
I guess you kissed the part that stated the limit of one cp per battle round. Own sentence.

Which tournaments? Good to know which ones are breaking the rules, so we can avoid them.


Kissed what?

It's the tournaments who overapply the 1 cp/round limit that are breaking the rules.

1 cp per battle round only applies to effects that gain or refund cp when a stratagem is used. The core rulebook is clear on this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/22 07:13:57


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Just save yourself a lot of time and mute the trolls in conversations like this. I did and dakka became a better place.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"The limit of gaining or refunding 1CP per battle round does not apply to the battle forged CP bonus ....
"
THIS, alongside the title stating "gaining and refunding command points", proves beyond argument that this is a generic rule about gaining or refunding command points regardless of source

If your contention had been correct, Hecaton, then nothing in this para about mission special rules etc would be needed. Turns out, they included it to make it clear 1) there is a limit per turn *initislly regardless of source* because they do not restrict the source in the quote, and 2) that there are other sources of cp that are not included in this rule, which would be prevented if this rule quoted was omitted


You only read part of the rules para, and failed to take the entire context including the title into account.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/22 08:59:51


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Hecaton, i think your confusion comes from the "....as the result of such rules" part. You probably think that this refers to stratagems from the first sentence, but it doesnt. It refers to rules which gain or refund CPs. There is a dot separating those two sentences.

There are several rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagems or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle’ or ‘at the end of the battle round’, can never be refunded.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Unfortunately, this rule suffers from GW's habit of providing explanatory text that doesn't completely match up with the actual rules part of a rule. While the most common ways to be able to gain CP during game revolve around a dice roll when someone uses a stratagem, there are other sources available. The rule notes the first but covers everything.
There are several rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagems or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle’ or ‘at the end of the battle round’, can never be refunded.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yep. The first sentence is a statement of fact. The second sentence is the rule.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




nosferatu1001 wrote:
"The limit of gaining or refunding 1CP per battle round does not apply to the battle forged CP bonus ....
"


Nobody's disputing that. It's not the only thing the limit doesn't apply to though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
THIS, alongside the title stating "gaining and refunding command points", proves beyond argument that this is a generic rule about gaining or refunding command points regardless of source


No it doesn't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If your contention had been correct, Hecaton, then nothing in this para about mission special rules etc would be needed. Turns out, they included it to make it clear 1) there is a limit per turn *initislly regardless of source* because they do not restrict the source in the quote, and 2) that there are other sources of cp that are not included in this rule, which would be prevented if this rule quoted was omitted


Wrong. The last sentence of that paragraph of rules does not say that it's the only thing the limit doesn't apply to.


You only read part of the rules para, and failed to take the entire context including the title into account.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
Hecaton, i think your confusion comes from the "....as the result of such rules" part. You probably think that this refers to stratagems from the first sentence, but it doesnt. It refers to rules which gain or refund CPs. There is a dot separating those two sentences.


"Such rules" refers to "rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagems or spend CPs to use a Stratagem." That's how English works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 alextroy wrote:
Unfortunately, this rule suffers from GW's habit of providing explanatory text that doesn't completely match up with the actual rules part of a rule. While the most common ways to be able to gain CP during game revolve around a dice roll when someone uses a stratagem, there are other sources available. The rule notes the first but covers everything.
There are several rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagems or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle’ or ‘at the end of the battle round’, can never be refunded.


You didn't highlight the part where the limit only applies to "such rules," which are elucidated by the first sentence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep. The first sentence is a statement of fact. The second sentence is the rule.


The "such rules" part of the second sentence refers to the first sentence.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/23 06:49:53


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yeah, we're at the part where we've shown you your errors,, GW have stated you're wrong, and you're still not convinced. Think this is past the point of being useful

Still waiting on those tournaments that break the rules by allowing more than one cp tho. Please name them. Assuming you can, and it wasn't bluster on your part?
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Unfortunately, this rule suffers from GW's habit of providing explanatory text that doesn't completely match up with the actual rules part of a rule. While the most common ways to be able to gain CP during game revolve around a dice roll when someone uses a stratagem, there are other sources available. The rule notes the first but covers everything.
There are several rules that give you a chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagems or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle’ or ‘at the end of the battle round’, can never be refunded.

You didn't highlight the part where the limit only applies to "such rules," which are elucidated by the first sentence.
I would say you had a valid point, if the Core Rules FAQ didn't include (emphasis added):
Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following:
Stratagems that Gain or Refund CPs
The advanced rules for Command points state that you cannot gain, or have refunded, more than 1 Command point per battle round because of any rules (other than via the exceptions listed on page 245, such as the Battle-forged CP Bonus). However, there are a small handful of Stratagems that let players gain or refund several Command points when used (e.g. Feeder Tendrils in Codex: Tyranids). So long as such a Stratagem is used during a phase (i.e. it is not used ‘before the battle’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’), the limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command point per battle round does not apply to any Command points gained via Stratagems.
Like I said, typical GW muddying the waters with irrelevant or misleading explanations before stating the rule.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The advanced rules don't state that, however. Occam's razor is that whoever wrote the faq misread the core rulebook.
   
 
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