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Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I have been reading my horus heresy codex and it briefly talks about the transition from thunder warriors to space marines. The former being being a short term prototype and the latter being a more streamlined and permanent product. But then where do the custodes fit into all of this? The background makes it sound like they have been around since at least as long as the thunder warriors, but they seem to be made from a much more advanced methodology. Is this wrong and they were produced along side the space marine project? Are they themselves a prototype of the primarch projects? I just don't feel like they fit in with the other projects?

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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Well, it’s unclear when Custards were first crafted, but they definitely pre-date the Primarchs. However, whether they pre-date Thunder Warriors I’m not at all sure.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Custodes then Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs and Astartes were the final product designed to be the perfect warriors for the expansion and maintaining of humanity's domain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/29 20:35:15


 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Inferno hints that Custodes came first, then states they were 'unveiled' at the same time - 30 Custodes fighting at the head of the new-born Thunder Legion.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Gert wrote:
Custodes then Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs and Astartes were the final product designed to be the perfect warriors for the expansion and maintaining of humanity's domain.


Astartes weren’t the final product. They were a “oh that’s buggered it” salvage job, post scattering of the Primarchs.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The ones they were left with yes but the original intention was 20 Legions with 20 Generals to lead them. They would secure the galaxy for the Emperor then act as its defenders and in some cases administrators. The end result may have been their annihilation to give humanity freedom from overlords including the Emperor but the Astartes were always planned.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

Gert wrote:Custodes then Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs and Astartes were the final product designed to be the perfect warriors for the expansion and maintaining of humanity's domain.


beast_gts wrote:Inferno hints that Custodes came first, then states they were 'unveiled' at the same time - 30 Custodes fighting at the head of the new-born Thunder Legion.


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/30 01:49:49


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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr Nobody wrote:
Gert wrote:Custodes then Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs and Astartes were the final product designed to be the perfect warriors for the expansion and maintaining of humanity's domain.


beast_gts wrote:Inferno hints that Custodes came first, then states they were 'unveiled' at the same time - 30 Custodes fighting at the head of the new-born Thunder Legion.


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...


The Custodes are basically custom jobs. Everything afterwards seems to have been an attempt to get the same results "on the cheap" at lower cost, or faster rate of production. The Emperor realized numbers were needed to accomplish the conquest of the galaxy and therefore a mass produced version was needed, even if it meant some sacrifice in other areas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/30 03:14:25


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




It has been argued that the Custodes may lack free will. As in they may be able to be advisors and intellectually disagree with the Emperor (such as thinking or advising that the Primarchs were a bad idea) or contemplate why someone would turn against the Emperor and the Imperium, but they would never be able to actually truly disagree with the Emperor once the Emperor makes a decision, and they would never be able to turn against the Emperor despite being able to intellectually understand why.

That is why in Gate of Bones, a Dark Apostle calls the Custodes the "least free of all the Emperor's slaves".

Now of course one could argue the Custodes are just making their own free willed decision that the Emperor is always right and it just so happens all of them have always decided the same. It's not really provable one way or another. However the fact the Custodes are so heavily altered on a genetic level to the point of having their psyker potential entirely absent and the Emperor's power flowing through them, to me suggests their minds, souls, and very being have been manipulated to align with the Emperor and thus reducing their freedom to actually choose.

I mean it would match what we know of the Emperor as a massive control freak. The Custodes may offer advice but at the end of the day, the Emperor may or may not heed that. Then the Custodes fall in line like yes-men. Even if they still individually harbor doubts, they CANNOT take their disagreement to a higher level.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2022/07/30 07:28:09


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






It’s the difference between artisan creation and mass production.

Custodes were his Bodyguards. Designed and intended to be the best. To be able to overpower, out think, out strategise and out fight any line troop. Because you tend to want your bodyguards to be well above average.

Thunder Warriors were a tool. A savage creation not designed or intended to last long, just last long enough to Get The Job Done. One can also argue they were very much a Proof of Concept to show genhanced Warriors could be churned out in vast numbers.

The Astartes being a rush job, a salvage operation of the Primarch Project is why we now have Primaris. They were unfinished. Improvements could be made - in time. Time The Emperor didn’t really have. Had things gone differently, The Emperor had a clear penchant for further tinkering and improvement, so to believe Astartes wouldn’t have been tinkered with seems, I wanna say wrong? Perhaps a blinkered point of view? Not sure if those terms are too strong.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s the difference between artisan creation and mass production.

Custodes were his Bodyguards. Designed and intended to be the best. To be able to overpower, out think, out strategise and out fight any line troop. Because you tend to want your bodyguards to be well above average.

Thunder Warriors were a tool. A savage creation not designed or intended to last long, just last long enough to Get The Job Done. One can also argue they were very much a Proof of Concept to show genhanced Warriors could be churned out in vast numbers.

The Astartes being a rush job, a salvage operation of the Primarch Project is why we now have Primaris. They were unfinished. Improvements could be made - in time. Time The Emperor didn’t really have. Had things gone differently, The Emperor had a clear penchant for further tinkering and improvement, so to believe Astartes wouldn’t have been tinkered with seems, I wanna say wrong? Perhaps a blinkered point of view? Not sure if those terms are too strong.


Well, I think it's more the idea that the Emperor controlling everything *isn't* actually a good thing. The Astartes are great because they can grow beyond the Emperor, just like a child is great because they can grow beyond their parent. The Custodes will always be lesser than the Emperor.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The Custodes flaw is their lack of independence and the planetary chip on their shoulder for the Astartes and the Primarchs.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Valdor: Birth of the Imperium goes into this. Custodes came first, then Thunder Warriors, then Space Marines.

Custodes were not used as the main crusading force because the process of creating them is so time consuming and their equipment can't be mass produced, so the imperium would basically not be able to produce anything else. It would go something like this:
"Your legions of golden demigods is finished my Emperor!"
"Excellent, deploy them on the ships. The great crusade begins!"
"Ships....?"

Thunder Warriors were used as a solution just to conquer Terra. Their creation process was unrefined and dangerous and all Thunder Warriors sooner or later died either in battle or because their bodies would literally break down. Their time was limited from the start. Space Marines represent the refined process of producing stable super soldiers which might not be as powerful individually as Custodes, but plenty powerful enough to conquer the galaxy with the increased numbers they could be produced in.
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Gert wrote:Custodes then Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs and Astartes were the final product designed to be the perfect warriors for the expansion and maintaining of humanity's domain.


beast_gts wrote:Inferno hints that Custodes came first, then states they were 'unveiled' at the same time - 30 Custodes fighting at the head of the new-born Thunder Legion.


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...


And this is the issue with these bloody HH novels, they try and answer every question and try to make everything boil down to “the emperor had it planned all along”. It strips away any nuance but opens up issues like this that didn’t matter when there were so many unknowns. It’s a real shame what they have done to this era.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






How is it jarring?
The Custodes were to be the guardians and companions of the Emperor during his reunification of humanity. They were difficult to produce but filled many important roles in the Emperor's early conquests. They were designed to be the guardians of Terra's most important locations such as the Imperial Palace.
The Thunder Warriors were a brutal tool for a brutal age and served as the Emperor's first real attempt at a mass army of super soldiers. They were made when He was considered little more than the other Warlords of Terra and they provided the foundation upon which He would build the core of His domain on Terra.
The Astartes and the Primarchs were the last great push. 20 Legions with 20 Generals to lead humanity to the stars. The Primarchs got scattered however and the Emperor had to make do with what was left. As such the Legions that were deployed on Terra were much smaller than intended and only grew larger when Terra and the Solar System were conquered. Each Legion was to have a special design path to follow but without the guiding hand of the Emperor tutored Primarchs, this fell apart rather quickly and when each Primarch was rediscovered and the cultures of their homeworlds adopted, the Emperor's initial plan was discarded. He made do with what He had and we don't know for sure what His plans for the Legions were if/when the galaxy was conquered.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Why did the British Army in WWI go from the highly-trained elite British Expeditionary Force to relying on rapidly-trained conscripts with simplified gear? It is really jarring. Shouldn't they have stuck with the best?

Logistics wins wars, and often more replaceable bodies beats out limited numbers of slow-to-train elites.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






There were also certain Legions that had extremely adaptable geneseed. The Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and especially the Blood Angels all had geneseed with very high compatibility rates, with the Blood Angels being able to take recruits from the most radiated and mutated populations of Terra and turn them into semi-angelic beings.
Why spend all the time and effort on making the absolute pinnacle while draining all of your very limited resources when you have forces that can take literal monsters and turn them into Astartes?

Oh and Andykp, that stuff is from the FW series, not BL in case you were wondering.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/30 12:37:08


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
How is it jarring?
The Custodes were to be the guardians and companions of the Emperor during his reunification of humanity. They were difficult to produce but filled many important roles in the Emperor's early conquests. They were designed to be the guardians of Terra's most important locations such as the Imperial Palace.
The Thunder Warriors were a brutal tool for a brutal age and served as the Emperor's first real attempt at a mass army of super soldiers. They were made when He was considered little more than the other Warlords of Terra and they provided the foundation upon which He would build the core of His domain on Terra.
The Astartes and the Primarchs were the last great push. 20 Legions with 20 Generals to lead humanity to the stars. The Primarchs got scattered however and the Emperor had to make do with what was left. As such the Legions that were deployed on Terra were much smaller than intended and only grew larger when Terra and the Solar System were conquered. Each Legion was to have a special design path to follow but without the guiding hand of the Emperor tutored Primarchs, this fell apart rather quickly and when each Primarch was rediscovered and the cultures of their homeworlds adopted, the Emperor's initial plan was discarded. He made do with what He had and we don't know for sure what His plans for the Legions were if/when the galaxy was conquered.


This honestly doesn't jive with the later depictions of how powerful the Emperor was. He would have been able to conquer Earth on his lonesome. I guess it's an inconsistency in the fluff.
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 Gert wrote:
There were also certain Legions that had extremely adaptable geneseed. The Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and especially the Blood Angels all had geneseed with very high compatibility rates, with the Blood Angels being able to take recruits from the most radiated and mutated populations of Terra and turn them into semi-angelic beings.
Why spend all the time and effort on making the absolute pinnacle while draining all of your very limited resources when you have forces that can take literal monsters and turn them into Astartes?

Oh and Andykp, that stuff is from the FW series, not BL in case you were wondering.


The whole thing is a mess. They shouldn’t have expanded on it all, it worked so well as a time of myth. Now it’s just a shallow tale all about the empower and the horrible daddy issues they’ve written all over, be it the novels or the black books. Just my opinion but things like this make me more certain than ever.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Hecaton wrote:
This honestly doesn't jive with the later depictions of how powerful the Emperor was. He would have been able to conquer Earth on his lonesome. I guess it's an inconsistency in the fluff.

Except the Plan wasn't just for Terra, it was for the galaxy and to do that He needed weapons. The Custodes and Astartes were to be the guardians of a psychically awakened humanity, a humanity the Emperor never intended to rule. He planned to get humanity to its "destiny" and starve the Dark Gods of power in the process leading to humanities domination of the galaxy and then leave the new humanity to its business.
The Emperor also knew of the horrors of the Old Night and what awaited humanity in the stars. There were threats out there that mortal soldiers were not equipped to deal with so in come the Astartes and Custodes.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Not to mention that no matter how powerful the Emperor is, he's still only in one place at once and he does sleep.

Plus we aren't exactly sure when his abilities increase exponentially as a result of what he does on Molech.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






The Emperor didn’t just conquer Terra. He utterly dominated it. He had to. Given the scale of his undertaking, he couldn’t risk any dissent remaining on the homeworld.

Thunder Warriors kicked everyone’s arse. Then came The Astartes, who were like that thing that just kicked everyone’s arse - but superior in many (not every) ways. And there were a lot of them.

Another part was improving life overall. Sadly not to a perfect utopia, but certainly better than most had before.

   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Andykp wrote:
 Gert wrote:
There were also certain Legions that had extremely adaptable geneseed. The Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and especially the Blood Angels all had geneseed with very high compatibility rates, with the Blood Angels being able to take recruits from the most radiated and mutated populations of Terra and turn them into semi-angelic beings.
Why spend all the time and effort on making the absolute pinnacle while draining all of your very limited resources when you have forces that can take literal monsters and turn them into Astartes?

Oh and Andykp, that stuff is from the FW series, not BL in case you were wondering.


The whole thing is a mess. They shouldn’t have expanded on it all, it worked so well as a time of myth. Now it’s just a shallow tale all about the empower and the horrible daddy issues they’ve written all over, be it the novels or the black books. Just my opinion but things like this make me more certain than ever.



things like what?

what makes you so certain? because this isn't a complex byzantian issue. it's a pretty clear progression. seriously of all the things to stand up and declare that the Horus Heresy "ruined" the orgins of the Astartes isn't one of them

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
This honestly doesn't jive with the later depictions of how powerful the Emperor was. He would have been able to conquer Earth on his lonesome. I guess it's an inconsistency in the fluff.

Except the Plan wasn't just for Terra, it was for the galaxy and to do that He needed weapons. The Custodes and Astartes were to be the guardians of a psychically awakened humanity, a humanity the Emperor never intended to rule. He planned to get humanity to its "destiny" and starve the Dark Gods of power in the process leading to humanities domination of the galaxy and then leave the new humanity to its business.
The Emperor also knew of the horrors of the Old Night and what awaited humanity in the stars. There were threats out there that mortal soldiers were not equipped to deal with so in come the Astartes and Custodes.


Sure, but my point was that he didn't need Astartes, Custodes, *or* Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra. Afterwards, sure.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Hecaton wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
This honestly doesn't jive with the later depictions of how powerful the Emperor was. He would have been able to conquer Earth on his lonesome. I guess it's an inconsistency in the fluff.

Except the Plan wasn't just for Terra, it was for the galaxy and to do that He needed weapons. The Custodes and Astartes were to be the guardians of a psychically awakened humanity, a humanity the Emperor never intended to rule. He planned to get humanity to its "destiny" and starve the Dark Gods of power in the process leading to humanities domination of the galaxy and then leave the new humanity to its business.
The Emperor also knew of the horrors of the Old Night and what awaited humanity in the stars. There were threats out there that mortal soldiers were not equipped to deal with so in come the Astartes and Custodes.


Sure, but my point was that he didn't need Astartes, Custodes, *or* Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra. Afterwards, sure.


If that was your point, then your point is stupid.

Anyone unifying Terra would have needed an army. And having an army of super soldiers is going to both make the process quicker, and get the jump on the other warlords who would have been also trying to develop their own super soldiers.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






It would have taken longer without them. What's more useful, human soldiers who die easy with what is essentially bought loyalty or superhuman killing machines with absolute loyalty and much higher thresholds for pain?
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




If the Emperor's precognition allowed him to predict or be aware of the Fall of the Eldar and the dispersing of the warp storms that had isolated Terra, and the evidence suggests he was since he was so ready to take advantage of it, then the Emperor would have been working under a time limit. Time and cost was supposedly the reason the Emperor reached a treaty with the Mechanicum instead of conquering them and deprogramming them from their Machine Cult ways. One of the Emperor's Terran scientists, Ezekiel Sedayne, immediately post-Heresy, viewed not doing this as a big mistake due to the Machine Cult spreading. It wouldn't have been the first for the Emperor, in choosing to go for speed over thoroughness.

Sure the conquest of Terra might have been accomplished using normal humans or just Custodes, but it would have taken longer, and time was one thing that was in short supply.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/31 21:30:38


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 solkan wrote:


If that was your point, then your point is stupid.

Anyone unifying Terra would have needed an army. And having an army of super soldiers is going to both make the process quicker, and get the jump on the other warlords who would have been also trying to develop their own super soldiers.


Is it? The Emperor could probably have single-handedly hacked enemy armies to death in the time it took him to cook up the Thunder Warriors and Custodes. At least, that would be consistent with his later portrayal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/31 22:55:45


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






And the Emperor can only be in one place at a time. So again what's easier, one man in one place winning one battle at a time or 20 armies in 20 places winning 18 battles?
Your logic is still hugely flawed.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

Hecaton wrote:
 solkan wrote:


If that was your point, then your point is stupid.

Anyone unifying Terra would have needed an army. And having an army of super soldiers is going to both make the process quicker, and get the jump on the other warlords who would have been also trying to develop their own super soldiers.


Is it? The Emperor could probably have single-handedly hacked enemy armies to death in the time it took him to cook up the Thunder Warriors and Custodes. At least, that would be consistent with his later portrayal.


Have we had a portrayal of the emperor in battle? The only one I can think of is when Horus saves him from an ork. Sure, it was a mega warboss juiced up on a planet's worth of waaugh energy, but still. Maybe the emperor isn't the melee power house everyone thinks he is. Just a little theory floating around in my mind. That would explain the super bodyguards he has.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/01 00:44:04


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