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I am playing emperors children so all my units have fights first, my opponent charges 3 of my units with 3 of his units creating 3 separate non overlapping combats.

Fight sequencing as follows.

1. Opponent selects a unit to fight
2. I select a unit to fight
3. I use the counteroffensive stratagem to select a unit to fight
4. Opponent selects a unit to fight
5. I select a unit to fight
6. Opponent selects a unit to fight

Is this legal? Why or why not?

Counter Offensive wrote:Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Bolded for emphasis.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Counter Offensive wrote:Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Bolded for emphasis.

An enemy fought first I am using the stratagem after that. The stratagem doesn't say "immediately after" so it can be used anytime that phase after an enemy has fought.

Can you use it the next turn, before any enemy units fight that turn?
They did fight last turn, after all.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Can you use it the next turn, before any enemy units fight that turn?
They did fight last turn, after all.

Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Bolded for emphasis

I should read the text. Especially considering I posted it.

Pretty sure that an FAQ states you can’t fight twice in a row with it, though-it basically gives Fights First to a unit.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I should read the text. Especially considering I posted it.

Pretty sure that an FAQ states you can’t fight twice in a row with it, though-it basically gives Fights First to a unit.

I've had this discussion with people in my local area and they often say the same thing that there is an FAQ stating you can't fight twice however I cannot find anything to that effect anywhere in the FAQs.

The wording strongly requires it to be immediate

You can try it if you like. It's never going to fly in anything important

Another p5-wannabe?

I've never seen anyone use it this way, nor even heard of anyone use it this way.

Look at the highlighted bit in what I posted. You must select a unit that is eligible to fight. If you've fought then you're no longer eligible.

If using it to try and Fight twice it in no way gives that permission. The Core Rules only permit Fighting once and this doesn’t override that.

As others have said, the trigger for this is an enemy unit having just fought. You can’t do a regular selection then use this to chain another on. Units alternate in the Fight Phase - this just allows you to bump one up the queue, not have two goes in a row or Fight twice with a unit.

 Aftersong wrote:
I am playing emperors children so all my units have fights first, my opponent charges 3 of my units with 3 of his units creating 3 separate non overlapping combats.

Fight sequencing as follows.

1. Opponent selects a unit to fight
2. I select a unit to fight
3. I use the counteroffensive stratagem to select a unit to fight
4. Opponent selects a unit to fight
5. I select a unit to fight
6. Opponent selects a unit to fight

Is this legal? Why or why not?

This is legal if you pick a unit which hasnt fought this turn. You can use it to fight with unit A and B, interrupting the normal sequence where players alternate selecting an eligible unit to fight with.

FIGHT PHASE
No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase.

 p5freak wrote:

 Aftersong wrote:
I am playing emperors children so all my units have fights first, my opponent charges 3 of my units with 3 of his units creating 3 separate non overlapping combats.

Fight sequencing as follows.

1. Opponent selects a unit to fight
2. I select a unit to fight
3. I use the counteroffensive stratagem to select a unit to fight
4. Opponent selects a unit to fight
5. I select a unit to fight
6. Opponent selects a unit to fight

Is this legal? Why or why not?

This is legal if you pick a unit which hasnt fought this turn. You can use it to fight with unit A and B, interrupting the normal sequence where players alternate selecting an eligible unit to fight with.

No, it is not legal.

It does not give permission to Fight twice in a row.

If you think otherwise, you need a rules citation.

I think some people are arguing against different arguments here.

The way I play the stratagem is that you have to use it immediately that the opponent has fought.

However, what I interpret the OP to ask for is that it only require the opponent to have fought at all that sequence. And since all his units have 'fight first' this opens up possabilaties:

Opponent (b) fights. His units have charged, so they fight first. The OP (a) fights, as all his units have fight first. Then he (a) uses the stratagem to fight with another unit. He argues/asks this since the opponen (b) already fought earlier that phase. Personally I can see this as RAW instead of RAI, depending on FAQ and wordings.

Lastly, it seems somebody thinks the OP is asking to fight with the same unit twice using the stratagem. I could be wrong, but I do not think this is what he is asking.

I hope this clear things up.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Aftersong wrote:
I am playing emperors children so all my units have fights first, my opponent charges 3 of my units with 3 of his units creating 3 separate non overlapping combats.

Fight sequencing as follows.

1. Opponent selects a unit to fight
2. I select a unit to fight
3. I use the counteroffensive stratagem to select a unit to fight
4. Opponent selects a unit to fight
5. I select a unit to fight
6. Opponent selects a unit to fight

Is this legal? Why or why not?

This is legal if you pick a unit which hasnt fought this turn. You can use it to fight with unit A and B, interrupting the normal sequence where players alternate selecting an eligible unit to fight with.

No, it is not legal.

It does not give permission to Fight twice in a row.

If you think otherwise, you need a rules citation.

Stratagem overrides core rules.

Only when it says it does. The alternate requirement is not overridden so it isn't

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only when it says it does. The alternate requirement is not overridden so it isn't

This.

The Counter offensive in no way says it overrides the core rules, so you must still follow the core rules when using this strat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only when it says it does. The alternate requirement is not overridden so it isn't

Not true. A stratagem that allows you to charge after advance lets you do so. It doesnt need to say that the unit can do so, even if it normally cant.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only when it says it does. The alternate requirement is not overridden so it isn't

Not true. A stratagem that allows you to charge after advance lets you do so. It doesnt need to say that the unit can do so, even if it normally cant.

Only because that stratagem that allows you to charge after advance specifically says you can.

Counter offensive does not say you can fight twice in a row, and indeed must be done "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

A friendly unit is not "an enemy unit"

So either, you need to use Counter offensive before any friendly units have fought, or it only works immediately "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only when it says it does. The alternate requirement is not overridden so it isn't

Not true. A stratagem that allows you to charge after advance lets you do so. It doesnt need to say that the unit can do so, even if it normally cant.

Only because that stratagem that allows you to charge after advance specifically says you can.

Counter offensive does not say you can fight twice in a row, and indeed must be done "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

A friendly unit is not "an enemy unit"

So either, you need to use Counter offensive before any friendly units have fought, or it only works immediately "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

CO says to fight next. I can play it any time after an enemy unit has fought. Nothing in the stratagem says i have to fight immediately after an enemy unit has fought.

Because this conversation definitely need to be murkier...

If we take the interpretation that CO can be used at any time provided an enemy unit "fought" earlier in the turn, how does that interact with rules that let you fight outside the Fight phase?

For instance, my IG opponent uses the Fix Bayonets! order to fight (and it does say "fight") at the start of the shooting phase. Because he "fought," could I then use CO to stab a tank I'm in melee with to death before it gets to shoot? And if so, is the stabby unit still eligible to fight in the fight phase later that turn?

Alternatively, because CO just says you select a unit to "fight next", and that doesn't explicitly let you fight outside the fight phase, does that mean that the Fix Bayonets! order could allow you to use CO to swing before the IG player's first charging unit in the fight phase?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Because this conversation definitely need to be murkier...

If we take the interpretation that CO can be used at any time provided an enemy unit "fought" earlier in the turn, how does that interact with rules that let you fight outside the Fight phase?

For instance, my IG opponent uses the Fix Bayonets! order to fight (and it does say "fight") at the start of the shooting phase. Because he "fought," could I then use CO to stab a tank I'm in melee with to death before it gets to shoot? And if so, is the stabby unit still eligible to fight in the fight phase later that turn?

Alternatively, because CO just says you select a unit to "fight next", and that doesn't explicitly let you fight outside the fight phase, does that mean that the Fix Bayonets! order could allow you to use CO to swing before the IG player's first charging unit in the fight phase?

If you have a rule which makes your unit eligible to fight outside of the fight phase you can use CO. Normally, units are only eligible to fight in the fight phase, unless a special rule says otherwise.

Again. Stating you may charge having advanced does override the core rules. Literally it does so.

The alternating requirement is not overridden. Because it isn't. It's that simple.

Another obtuse p5.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again. Stating you may charge having advanced does override the core rules. Literally it does so.

The alternating requirement is not overridden. Because it isn't. It's that simple.

Another obtuse p5.

Sincere question: Is there a rule that specifically requires units to alternate regardless of other rules interactions? Because while CO functionally gives the unit a "Swings First" rule, that's not technically what it does.

...Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

^We all understand that to mean that the selected unit is allowed to activate before a different enemy unit does so. Otherwise, the stratagem would functionally do nothing; "fight with it next" without the implied "right away" would just mean that you were paying CP to choose which of your units you'd swing with first after all your opponent's chargers were done activating.

So if we do accept that there's an implied "right away", then it seems like RAW there would be an argument for activating with two units in a row. I don't want that to be the case, but RAW it seems valid unless there's something I missed.

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only when it says it does. The alternate requirement is not overridden so it isn't

Not true. A stratagem that allows you to charge after advance lets you do so. It doesnt need to say that the unit can do so, even if it normally cant.

Only because that stratagem that allows you to charge after advance specifically says you can.

Counter offensive does not say you can fight twice in a row, and indeed must be done "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

A friendly unit is not "an enemy unit"

So either, you need to use Counter offensive before any friendly units have fought, or it only works immediately "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

CO says to fight next. I can play it any time after an enemy unit has fought. Nothing in the stratagem says i have to fight immediately after an enemy unit has fought.

Counter Offensive wrote:Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

If your unit just fought, you have no eligible units at that point in time.

Case closed.

Let's see. Breaking out the main rulebook. Page 228, Fight Phase section, first non-bold paragraph:

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it (see right). An eligible unit is one that is within ENgagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn...

...If all of one player's eligible units have fought, the opposing player can then fight with their remaining eligible units, one at a time.

Then on page 229 under Charging Units Fight First...

Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

So the way I read that, Counter-Offensive is implied/understood to let you ignore the text on page 229. Because if doesn't let you ignore that text, you wouldn't be able to interrupt charging units with CO.

It doesn't say "treat the unit as though it charged and then select it as your next unit to fight," or anything like that. It uses the words "fight with it next" to make that unit go next without using the normal rules for determining who activates when. In other words, it's creating an exception to the rules that determine who activates when. The question is whether that exception overrides the text on both 229 and 228 or just 228 given that it doesn't explicitly say which text it's overriding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only when it says it does. The alternate requirement is not overridden so it isn't

Not true. A stratagem that allows you to charge after advance lets you do so. It doesnt need to say that the unit can do so, even if it normally cant.

Only because that stratagem that allows you to charge after advance specifically says you can.

Counter offensive does not say you can fight twice in a row, and indeed must be done "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

A friendly unit is not "an enemy unit"

So either, you need to use Counter offensive before any friendly units have fought, or it only works immediately "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn"

CO says to fight next. I can play it any time after an enemy unit has fought. Nothing in the stratagem says i have to fight immediately after an enemy unit has fought.

Counter Offensive wrote:Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

If your unit just fought, you have no eligible units at that point in time.

Case closed.

"Eligible" is defined in my quote above. If you still have a unit within engagement range of an enemy unit, they're eligible.

You literally skipped over the following on page 228:

No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase.

Where does the Counter-Offensive stratagem remove this limitation?

 Ghaz wrote:
You literally skipped over the following on page 228:

No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase.

Where does the Counter-Offensive stratagem remove this limitation?

There seems to be a misunderstanding. I'm not arguing that it allows a single unit to activate twice. I'm arguing that it might allow multiple friendly units to activate back-to-back. As in:

* You charge a few of my units with a few of yours.
* You activate one of your chargers.
* I activate one of my units by virtue of a count-as-charging/swing first rule.
* I activate a second one of my units using the CO strat.

Your first charger fought earlier this turn, so the requirements of the stratagem have been satisfied. CO is understood to let non-chargers swing before unactivated chargers. It does this via an "exception" as I've described above. So the question is whether or not that exception lets me bypass the text about alternating units on 228. CO seems to use its own rules to interrupt the activation order rather than plugging the activation into the existing rules; so does that mean we're functionally outside the "alternate selecting eligible units" logic?

I'm inclined to think that CO does not allow me to activate two units in a row. The logic being that:
* CO basically turns off the text on 229 about chargers activating first.
* The text on 228 about alternating units is still in effect.
* So after my first non-charger swings, I'm assumed to be asking you if you'd like to activate a unit, to which you'd presumably reply, "Yes," and proceed to activate your next charger. It seems that the opportunity to activate a unit automatically bounces back to you after I activate a unit, and I don't see a RAW interpretation of CO that would let me prevent it from bouncing back.

Counter-Offensive stratagem does not give permission to Fight twice in a row.

If anyone thinks otherwise, we need a rules citation.|

 Wyldhunt wrote:
"Eligible" is defined in my quote above. If you still have a unit within engagement range of an enemy unit, they're eligible.

Weird, eligible does not mean eligible, it means something different. That is GW for you.

Though it does not matter because the Counter Offensive Strat says to "Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next." The language of this strat makes it so that you have to use it immediately after an enemy unit has fought in this turn, because you get to fight next, which can interrupt several enemy charging units.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
"Eligible" is defined in my quote above. If you still have a unit within engagement range of an enemy unit, they're eligible.

Weird, eligible does not mean eligible, it means something different. That is GW for you.

Though it does not matter because the Counter Offensive Strat says to "Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next." The language of this strat makes it so that you have to use it immediately after an enemy unit has fought in this turn, because you get to fight next, which can interrupt several enemy charging units.

I'm inclined to agree with the overall conclusion for the reasons I gave above, but for the sake of discussion... What is it about the language that makes is so that it has to be used immediately? Hypothetically....

* My opponent charges with a few units.
* One of his chargers fights.
* One of my units with an always-swing first fights.

Immediately after my first unit fights is also "after an enemy unit has fought in this turn." It's just that some other stuff has happened since then.

No one wants use CO to fight with a unit twice. And there is no requirement to fight with a friendly unit immediately after an enemy unit has fought. Thats not what the stratagem is saying. If my opponent fights with his unit A first, i fight with my unit B, play CO, and then fight with my unit C. I have played the stratagem after an enemy unit has fought, and i fight with one of my own eligible units next.