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I've been seeing a lot of people talking about the removal or changing of stratagems for WH40k's future and i think my HOT TAKE on it is that - I like them or at least the IDEA of them. I like that I can use points to spend on cards that let me do X thing - it adds a layer of strategy (and complexity) to 40k. I do think they shouldn't be as numerous and every army should have like 5-10 of the SAME EXACT stratagem and then maybe like 2-3 unique ones per faction. Maybe not use command points but you can use like 1 stratagem a turn or something? Idk i'm not exactly rulesy and i'm more into this for the FUN aspect of it, but i do agree that stratagems add bloat/time and make things more complex, but i also like that complexity it gives me a layer to play with and plan around. So, i think i'd be okay with a removal of Command Points and Stratagems, but not as a whole i would love some extra little cards or something i can still use to add onto that extra strategy layer.


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What do yall think?

I like that I can use points to spend on cards that let me do X thing - it adds a layer of strategy (and complexity) to 40k.

I think this is one of the main things that stratagems do relatively well, but I also think that we'd be better off doing this with AoSigmar-style commands. Something like:

* Some units have the "Commander" keyword.
* Commanders know a certain number of Orders, and they can issue X orders each turn. Sort of like how a psyker knows certain powers and can cast X powers a turn.
* Most orders are issued in the command phase.
* Some orders have the "Reaction" keyword meaning you use them outside of the command phase when a certain condition is met. Using a reaction "uses up" one of your commands for the following turn.
* Some units have special maneuvers that that Commanders can use an Order to tell them to perform.

Example: My Autarch can issue two orders each battle round. In my opponent's turn, my opponent shoots at my wave serpent. My autarch issues the "Jink!" reaction order to make my serpent harder to hit. On my turn, my autarch only has one order left (because he used a reaction order on the Jink. ) He can either issue his "Fire and Fade" order that he knows to let a target move after shooting later that turn, or he can issue the "Swooping Barrage" order to my swooping hawks to let them move farther and use their grenade packs this turn.

So no having to remember a million stratagems. Get rid of the stratagems that basically boil down to "kill better" or "die slower" and keep the ones that emphasize maneuvering or cool abilities unique to units. Tie these special maneuvers to your army's leaders so they actually feel like they're leading.

In general my take on stratagems is that their main use case is as a mechanism for making sure you can't just walk away and get a sandwich during your opponent's turn, and I think they've failed pretty completely at that. Their current implementation is as a vast library of unit-specific stat buffs that would be grotesquely overpowered if they were always on, which has ended up turning the game into a bloated combo-play exercise in finding how you can best throw down enough burst damage to kill everything before the other guy can (I'm aware that tournament play isn't usually over with one side getting tabled in two turns, but casual play near me pretty much always is).

I think the goal of stratagems is much better-served by the reaction system of 30k or Bolt Action, where instead of having a giant library of bespoke things you get to do four things a turn off of a list of seven (only one of which is unique to your army) in 30k, or where any unit can choose to act during your opponent's activation instead of its own in Bolt Action. Those two games manage to let you do more reactions, and make any one reaction feel dramatically less swingy, and in the case of 30k add an extra layer of gameplay on over the bland foundations of Warhammer that makes it more interesting than it's ever been.

A lot of the straight up offense/defense ones need to go the way of the dodo. Usually I approach my like of Stratagems is, "Does it make sense only one unit remembered it can do it?"

So for example, why does only one Primaris Marine unit in your army remember it can be wounded less often?

To me, Stratagems break the immersion of the miniatures wargame by giving actions to the player instead of the player's miniatures.
In a game of dark gods and an omnipotent psychic immortal human, stratagems feel like ACTUAL miracles or divine interventions, which I suppose does make sense but they still seem unprecedented. Plus, not every faction has a god looking out for them, ready to bestow miracles where needed from a deck of cards. Who's granting wishes for the Tau and the Necrons? Tzeentch just for giggles?

I agree with the above, that Stratagems should be abilities owned by commander-type miniatures, not a deck of miracle cards held by Tzeentch, praise be His name.
Or an out-of-turn reaction system. I like that best.

Get rid of them entirely. It's an incredibly anti-fluffy concept that adds immense amounts of rules bloat and a horrible learning curve for new players. The few that have any merit at all can become inherent unit abilities, the rest can go away and nothing of value will be lost.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In general my take on stratagems is that their main use case is as a mechanism for making sure you can't just walk away and get a sandwich during your opponent's turn, and I think they've failed pretty completely at that. Their current implementation is as a vast library of unit-specific stat buffs that would be grotesquely overpowered if they were always on, which has ended up turning the game into a bloated combo-play exercise in finding how you can best throw down enough burst damage to kill everything before the other guy can (I'm aware that tournament play isn't usually over with one side getting tabled in two turns, but casual play near me pretty much always is).

I think the goal of stratagems is much better-served by the reaction system of 30k or Bolt Action, where instead of having a giant library of bespoke things you get to do four things a turn off of a list of seven (only one of which is unique to your army) in 30k, or where any unit can choose to act during your opponent's activation instead of its own in Bolt Action. Those two games manage to let you do more reactions, and make any one reaction feel dramatically less swingy, and in the case of 30k add an extra layer of gameplay on over the bland foundations of Warhammer that makes it more interesting than it's ever been.

Exalted! Totally agreed. Strategems are just a gamey buff system at this point, and horribly bloated. Take the entire system out, and burn it. Replace it with Reactions. And keep them to the limited scope that's in HH 2.0.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In general my take on stratagems is that their main use case is as a mechanism for making sure you can't just walk away and get a sandwich during your opponent's turn, and I think they've failed pretty completely at that. Their current implementation is as a vast library of unit-specific stat buffs that would be grotesquely overpowered if they were always on, which has ended up turning the game into a bloated combo-play exercise in finding how you can best throw down enough burst damage to kill everything before the other guy can (I'm aware that tournament play isn't usually over with one side getting tabled in two turns, but casual play near me pretty much always is).

I think the goal of stratagems is much better-served by the reaction system of 30k or Bolt Action, where instead of having a giant library of bespoke things you get to do four things a turn off of a list of seven (only one of which is unique to your army) in 30k, or where any unit can choose to act during your opponent's activation instead of its own in Bolt Action. Those two games manage to let you do more reactions, and make any one reaction feel dramatically less swingy, and in the case of 30k add an extra layer of gameplay on over the bland foundations of Warhammer that makes it more interesting than it's ever been.

Exalted! Totally agreed. Strategems are just a gamey buff system at this point, and horribly bloated. Take the entire system out, and burn it. Replace it with Reactions. And keep them to the limited scope that's in HH 2.0.

The only problem with Reactions is that it's for the IGOUGO system, whereas Strats and Command Points are system agnostic.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In general my take on stratagems is that their main use case is as a mechanism for making sure you can't just walk away and get a sandwich during your opponent's turn, and I think they've failed pretty completely at that. Their current implementation is as a vast library of unit-specific stat buffs that would be grotesquely overpowered if they were always on, which has ended up turning the game into a bloated combo-play exercise in finding how you can best throw down enough burst damage to kill everything before the other guy can (I'm aware that tournament play isn't usually over with one side getting tabled in two turns, but casual play near me pretty much always is).

I think the goal of stratagems is much better-served by the reaction system of 30k or Bolt Action, where instead of having a giant library of bespoke things you get to do four things a turn off of a list of seven (only one of which is unique to your army) in 30k, or where any unit can choose to act during your opponent's activation instead of its own in Bolt Action. Those two games manage to let you do more reactions, and make any one reaction feel dramatically less swingy, and in the case of 30k add an extra layer of gameplay on over the bland foundations of Warhammer that makes it more interesting than it's ever been.

Exalted! Totally agreed. Strategems are just a gamey buff system at this point, and horribly bloated. Take the entire system out, and burn it. Replace it with Reactions. And keep them to the limited scope that's in HH 2.0.

The only problem with Reactions is that it's for the IGOUGO system, whereas Strats and Command Points are system agnostic.

Ummmm.....did you miss the part of AnomanderRake's post where they specifically mentioned the Reaction system used in Bolt Action? Y'know, the game that uses randomized Alternating Activations? Reactions can work just fine outside of IGOUGO systems. But even if they couldn't, that would only be a "problem" if you absolutely insist on 40k switching to an AA system because you think that's some kind of panacea for the problems of the game.

But, you're right about stratagems/command points being "system agnostic". They're perfectly capable of up an AA system just as thoroughly as they have the 40k IGOUGO system.

Infinity uses something like Stratagems, but there's a set amount that any faction can use, and they're usually not immersion breaking. Moving one troop from one combat group to the other feels like a tactical decision that one would make. Plus, Infinity is already pretty gamey, and it uses that to its advantage. It's actually provided me with a better 40k feel than normal 40k.

So Stratagems can work, as most mechanics can. But it does lean on the game side of wargame.

Rahdok wrote:
I like that I can use points to spend on cards that let me do X thing - it adds a layer of strategy (and complexity) to 40k.

I agree.

I do think they shouldn't be as numerous and every army should have like 5-10 of the SAME EXACT stratagem and then maybe like 2-3 unique ones per faction.

The benefit of unit specific Stratagems is it rewards varied armies, because even if you have 3 units of Skorpekh Destroyers only one of them can benefit from their Stratagem.

Maybe not use command points but you can use like 1 stratagem a turn or something?

That would constrain the possible Stratagems a lot, because every Stratagem would have to be worth as much as the next Stratagem*. You could get around the limitation by adding downsides to more powerful Stratagems. Using the old CSM boon Stratagem was situational and it was almost always CP-inefficient because the damage amplifying Stratagems were relatively undercosted. In your system it would most likely be the same with one Stratagem being used all the time. *One solution would be to have a cookie cutter damage amplifying Stratagem that is mediocre and then a number of more powerful niche Stratagems.

Relics and WL traits all having the same cost forces designers to attempt not to make boring useless ones and simply fixing them by making them cheap. The Necron Cryptogeometric Adjuster is the perfect example, it's Cryptek Arkana, so a Relic but it costs points. GW has reduced the cost to 10 pts when it really should have just had a much more powerful effect and been a relic costing 1CP or 20 pts. Whether a relic costs 10 or 30 pts is almost irrelevant in the scheme of 2000 pts anyways because you can take so few of them and they are unique. The Iron Hands Ironstone was part of Iron Hands being game-breaking, while 100 pts would have been more balanced it is still hilariously out of place among options worth around 20 pts. Under normal circumstances the loss of not having the optimal relic is not that great.

I'd like strategems to reflect command ability stuff, but not things a units training should cover like weapons or abilities.

things that reflect either the ability of the commander or their importance and thus ability to influence off table support.

stuff like off table artillery bombardments yes, things that allow pre-game for restructuring yes, adjusted deployment options yes. throw in then some reroll abilities to represent motivation where the commanders focus is, leadership things.

but remove stuff like double firing weapons, modifiers to hit, stuff that makes weapons stronger etc.

make it command points, not a lazy way to try and limit unit spam by taking special abilities and making them in effect "once per turn" when there is no reason why if you had two such units they wouldn't both be able to do it


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note further, maybe tie some to specific characters also, or specific levels of characters so more senior commanders can do things more junior cannot, but more junior can do things at a lower level, like morale effects or charge rerolls etc at unit by unit level - reflect the relative positions of characters and give them something to do.

some points in a fixed pool that gets depleted during the game, some that get refreshed, or something like a dice roll per turn, so many d6, each 6 means a senior command point each 5 a lesser one, maybe total up the number of 4 rolled and when thats say six or more something else