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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I have to hand it to them if so. Making the Votann so OP initially really got people engaged and following with "nerfs" is really going to make fans feel like they are listened to. I'm actually impressed. Just wish I got to play against them at full power, I actually prefer a challenge. Oh well, I guess now my anti-Votann armies are now overkill. Again I can't be certain, but if that was a marketing campaign on GW's part they did a very good job.
   
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Wrong sub forum dude.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wrong sub forum dude.


Yeah it was moved. I didn't realize this was Background but the mods corrected me and I appreciate their assistance.
   
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"Any press is good press"

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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GW are pretending to listen and alot of people swallow their stunt as an apology.

In truth they released a product of questionable quality and then release a "fix" that's even more questionable.

1) The LoV-codex should've never been released with the rules it had on launch (it clearly wasn't playtested nearly enough).

2) Todays "balance patch" is clearly not backed up by actual playtesting and proper data/feedback (there simply hasn't been enough time), so the aim can't have been to actually balance LoV - instead it's a knee-jerk response to online whine and (more importantly) the fact that their new army was banned in a tournament (before all the models are even out on the market), so they decided to quickly bring out the massive nerf-hammer and overcompensate for their inability to write good rules, turning LoV from overpowered to underwhelming before most players have even had a chance to play with/against them, so more tournaments won't bann their new shiny product - and then they mask the whole ordeal as them "caring about the community".

I haven't been this annoyed with GW since they dropped WFB in favour of AoS.

And for the record, I've played 0 games with LoV. I just hate how they went about this release.

Edit: And no, I don't think GW actively played the community. I think GW did something incredibly stupid and quickly went full damage control.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 23:09:04


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"Did GW deliberately sabotage their own products and invite bad PR just to have the possibility of getting good PR from fixing their own mistakes?"

No.
   
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Chicago

I believe the old adage goes something like ....

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

In this case, don't confuse inadequate playtesting with a devious scheme of reverse psychology customer service.

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I find it funny how many complained and cried about rules that hadn't been play tested or thought about very hard......then GW releases a fix before most models have even come in the mail......no complaining about if their fix was play tested or thought about long enough.......no these same complainers are praising the company that put out a non-play tested product and resulting fix that wasn't play tested.

Brilliant!

70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
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Denver, CO

I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This line of reasoning broke 7th edition in Fantasy. The books should be as equal as possible, even a theoretical "Codex: Squirrels with Crustacean allies" should have a fair chance to beat "Codex: God".

 Redbeard wrote:

- Cost? FW models cost more? Because Thudd guns are more expensive than Wraithknights and Riptides. Nope, not a good argument. This is an expensive game. We play it knowing that, and also knowing that, realistically, it's cheaper than hookers and blow.
 
   
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 purplkrush wrote:
I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.


"Admech literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Orks literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Nids literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Quins literally unkillable and tabling players in 3 turns"

But LoV is where you can't believe it?

   
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^Haha.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Denver, CO

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 purplkrush wrote:
I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.


"Admech literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Orks literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Nids literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Quins literally unkillable and tabling players in 3 turns"

But LoV is where you can't believe it?


LOL, no... I'm aware this is a repeating pattern... hahahaha, it was funny to see it laid out like that though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This line of reasoning broke 7th edition in Fantasy. The books should be as equal as possible, even a theoretical "Codex: Squirrels with Crustacean allies" should have a fair chance to beat "Codex: God".

 Redbeard wrote:

- Cost? FW models cost more? Because Thudd guns are more expensive than Wraithknights and Riptides. Nope, not a good argument. This is an expensive game. We play it knowing that, and also knowing that, realistically, it's cheaper than hookers and blow.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Asenion wrote:
Just wish I got to play against them at full power, I actually prefer a challenge.


I'm sure that any Votann player will be happy to grant your wish.
Just ask them.


Oh, and I loved the hypocrisy in thier warcom article.
They spew about caring wether or not the players are having fun, feeling the games fair, blah blah blah....
Hey, CSM players, how's it felt these past 2.5 years slogging along with your 1wound? When all it'd have taken was a mere sentence or two to say "CSM now have 2w & cost xPTs."?
Did they help you out? Did they do anything to make your experience more fair/fun?
Oh, that's right. They ignored you. And then rubbed your nose in it by making a big deal of teasing the stat change a few months back

GW caring about the players experience.... HA!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 purplkrush wrote:
I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.


Yeah, it's why I'm glad I didn't buy the Codex or any miniatures. I feel sorry for the people that did though. Imagine being that poor kid working a summer job to buy that LoV army and right before game one - everything painted, etc, the power is reduced by like half.

Meanwhile GW is shaking a fistful of dollars while chuckling "Suckers!" Lol, sorry I'm laughing but my sense of humor can be quite morbid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 04:15:47


 
   
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 Eilif wrote:
I believe the old adage goes something like ....
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Also:
"'Napoleon Bonaparte' famously declared: 'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

I have it in my other forum's sig

If GW did plan this, they're a lot better at marketing than people attribute them with.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/09/30 08:44:12


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Made in gb
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London

Sounds like people are trying to make a New Coke conspiracy out of this.

Honestly, who actually cares? They've changed the book, made it more reasonable and it may be a stopgap until a proper FAQ in a couple months' time. I bet if they had waited a few months before releasing this update everyone would still be bitching because they've already bought a whole army.

Getting a good laugh of people acting like they physically can't ever use the Codex again though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 08:47:57


 
   
Made in gb
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UK

Did they play the community - absolutely not. Printed books are one of GW's most expensive products to produce, they require translations, art, 3rd party printing partners and distribution and have an extremely short shelf life (compared to plastic minis that can sit in a warehouse until they are in vogue again) - making them purposefully contain mistakes is preposterously dumb.

Well done for applying a timely fix, but avoiding a problem of your own creation by actually doing the play testing you claim to do isn't a high bar to clear.
   
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Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

So, why don't GW put them back up as digitally available?

The app is not the whole book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 09:15:44


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Chicago

 Skinnereal wrote:
 Eilif wrote:
I believe the old adage goes something like ....
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Also:
"'Napoleon Bonaparte' famously declared: 'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

I have it in my other forum's sig

If GW did plan this, they're a lot better at marketing than people attribute them with.

Thanks for that!
Good to know the full history.

Honestly, I'm feeling a little proud of myself that I got so close to the original off the top of my head. I've been known to horribly mangle maxims in the past.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/30 12:37:00


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Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
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 Amishprn86 wrote:
 purplkrush wrote:
I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.


"Admech literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Orks literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Nids literally tabling players in 2 turns"
"Quins literally unkillable and tabling players in 3 turns"

But LoV is where you can't believe it?


its very confusing why people keep throwing orks in this. even at codex release with the "broken" freebootas they took 1 major tournament to a win and were immediatly nerfed. They never broke into broken territory with tournament results of a more than 55% win rate for the faction that i recall. looking at stat sites not seeing ever above it, only getting close at 2 weeks of 54% before the nerf. I am sure on some planet bowlingball table they managed a turn 2 tabling here or there but on a real table with good terrain and decent players they did not have the staying power or fire volume to table anything turn 3 even

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 Insularum wrote:
Did they play the community - absolutely not. Printed books are one of GW's most expensive products to produce, they require translations, art, 3rd party printing partners and distribution and have an extremely short shelf life (compared to plastic minis that can sit in a warehouse until they are in vogue again) - making them purposefully contain mistakes is preposterously dumb.

Well done for applying a timely fix, but avoiding a problem of your own creation by actually doing the play testing you claim to do isn't a high bar to clear.

I'm sure they did playtest, it's just clear that the process used will have been heavily flawed due to a few other business practices that GW haven't moved away from for whatever reason:

  • An insistence on printed material means rules development is done for a totally different game environment that the one we play in now.
  • I strongly suspect that in order to contain leaks, this codex wasn't widely distributed around the usual external playtesting groups
  • That means you end up with a far more limited internal playtest against other codexes in development at the same time, resulting in them all being flawed to various degrees

  • Personally I think that any brand new faction launched in this way should have been done with free rules while being discouraged from competitive play for a period of time. That would have given time for meaningful feedback from the community as well as for players to build up their armies, rather than the "arms race" with people talking about 3D-printing Hekatons as quickly as possible.

    It would also be great if GW can one day embrace the 21st century and find a way to implement a full 'living rules' system that can be better controlled.

     Skinnereal wrote:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
    "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by prioritising a bunch of other stuff over game balance
    - Lenton's razor

    Asenion wrote:

    Yeah, it's why I'm glad I didn't buy the Codex or any miniatures. I feel sorry for the people that did though. Imagine being that poor kid working a summer job to buy that LoV army and right before game one - everything painted, etc, the power is reduced by like half.

    Meanwhile GW is shaking a fistful of dollars while chuckling "Suckers!" Lol, sorry I'm laughing but my sense of humor can be quite morbid.

    Nope. Sorry but anyone buying this codex on release knew precisely what it was. The leaked PDF and discussion around it has been out for some time, and there were plenty of plainly worded reviews out for when pre-orders opened. It was never a realistic proposition for most people to assemble a full 2000pt competitive Votann list and get substantial use of it before the next Chapter Approved or FAQ. The points listed in the codex were always going to be revised within months if not weeks, and most folks pearl-clutching over a nerf are just upset that they didn't get a few weeks of easy wins as expected.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 12:08:40


     
       
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     G00fySmiley wrote:
     Amishprn86 wrote:
     purplkrush wrote:
    I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

    Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

    The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.


    "Admech literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Orks literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Nids literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Quins literally unkillable and tabling players in 3 turns"

    But LoV is where you can't believe it?


    its very confusing why people keep throwing orks in this. even at codex release with the "broken" freebootas they took 1 major tournament to a win and were immediatly nerfed. They never broke into broken territory with tournament results of a more than 55% win rate for the faction that i recall. looking at stat sites not seeing ever above it, only getting close at 2 weeks of 54% before the nerf. I am sure on some planet bowlingball table they managed a turn 2 tabling here or there but on a real table with good terrain and decent players they did not have the staying power or fire volume to table anything turn 3 even


    Bc they went and table everyone at a few large events including a top player using slightly nerfed DE.

       
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     Amishprn86 wrote:
     G00fySmiley wrote:
     Amishprn86 wrote:
     purplkrush wrote:
    I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

    Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

    The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.


    "Admech literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Orks literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Nids literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Quins literally unkillable and tabling players in 3 turns"

    But LoV is where you can't believe it?


    its very confusing why people keep throwing orks in this. even at codex release with the "broken" freebootas they took 1 major tournament to a win and were immediatly nerfed. They never broke into broken territory with tournament results of a more than 55% win rate for the faction that i recall. looking at stat sites not seeing ever above it, only getting close at 2 weeks of 54% before the nerf. I am sure on some planet bowlingball table they managed a turn 2 tabling here or there but on a real table with good terrain and decent players they did not have the staying power or fire volume to table anything turn 3 even


    Bc they went and table everyone at a few large events including a top player using slightly nerfed DE.


    feel free to provide links butmost thing si cna find on the (again 1 major win) nobody was tabled completely and the list was a counter to DE and got some favorable matchups. post codex release other than a major the ork codex managed some top 8 placements but very few event wins once people were looking for the freebootas list. Then given the nerf even that was less common. Having them listed next to armies that dominated the scene for entire yearly quarters when they shined for a week seems disingenuous.

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     G00fySmiley wrote:
     Amishprn86 wrote:
     G00fySmiley wrote:
     Amishprn86 wrote:
     purplkrush wrote:
    I cannot honestly believe GW was ignorant of the hot garbage they were throwing out there.

    Also, there are at least a few digital TT games which demonstrate the ridiculousness of the codex, pre nerf/"balance".

    The timing of the balance sheet coming just ahead of the major tournaments and just behind the pre-orders is exactly to plan.


    "Admech literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Orks literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Nids literally tabling players in 2 turns"
    "Quins literally unkillable and tabling players in 3 turns"

    But LoV is where you can't believe it?


    its very confusing why people keep throwing orks in this. even at codex release with the "broken" freebootas they took 1 major tournament to a win and were immediatly nerfed. They never broke into broken territory with tournament results of a more than 55% win rate for the faction that i recall. looking at stat sites not seeing ever above it, only getting close at 2 weeks of 54% before the nerf. I am sure on some planet bowlingball table they managed a turn 2 tabling here or there but on a real table with good terrain and decent players they did not have the staying power or fire volume to table anything turn 3 even


    Bc they went and table everyone at a few large events including a top player using slightly nerfed DE.


    feel free to provide links butmost thing si cna find on the (again 1 major win) nobody was tabled completely and the list was a counter to DE and got some favorable matchups. post codex release other than a major the ork codex managed some top 8 placements but very few event wins once people were looking for the freebootas list. Then given the nerf even that was less common. Having them listed next to armies that dominated the scene for entire yearly quarters when they shined for a week seems disingenuous.


    Quick coverage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwtO6nVBr5g
    Actual footage (EDIT, timestamp) https://youtu.be/5SD2OVJbcKg?t=9470

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 13:31:47


       
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    Not sure if it was an honest mistake or an attempt to help the new faction take off with OP rules.

    But the pre-patch Leagues didn't seem completely unacceptable to me. I don't like the 4+ autowound, but I've seen worse.

    I guess I'm saying I didn't see anything that suggested a 7th edition Tzeentch Daemon Deathstar. Definitely unbalanced, but not ridiculously so.

       
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     techsoldaten wrote:
    Not sure if it was an honest mistake or an attempt to help the new faction take off with OP rules.

    But the pre-patch Leagues didn't seem completely unacceptable to me. I don't like the 4+ autowound, but I've seen worse.

    I guess I'm saying I didn't see anything that suggested a 7th edition Tzeentch Daemon Deathstar. Definitely unbalanced, but not ridiculously so.


    They either didn't play test it or totally ignored what the okay tests said. It's either severe incompetence or malice. I've seen fast food workers fired for less.
       
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    Aachen

    Asenion wrote:
    I've seen fast food workers fired for less.


    That's really not a useful benchmark when it's coming from an US American.
       
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    nekooni wrote:
    Asenion wrote:
    I've seen fast food workers fired for less.


    That's really not a useful benchmark when it's coming from an US American.


    You really don't have to drag Murica into this. It's important to realize that GW's designer actually do their job. They may not be able to make a good game, but they make a working sales vehicle*. GW has no reason to fire them.


    Edit: That should of course be make, maintain and do it for cheap. Just for the sake of completion.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 17:02:25


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     Geifer wrote:
    nekooni wrote:
    Asenion wrote:
    I've seen fast food workers fired for less.


    That's really not a useful benchmark when it's coming from an US American.


    You really don't have to drag Murica into this. It's important to realize that GW's designer actually do their job. They may not be able to make a good game, but they make a working sales vehicle*. GW has no reason to fire them.


    Edit: That should of course be make, maintain and do it for cheap. Just for the sake of completion.


    GW is having to refund a lot of LoV purchases now, likely amounting to hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Like I said, if even a the fry guy at BK made this kind of mistake they'd be fired on the spot.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 17:09:23


     
       
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    It's a bold claim that GW actually has to refund anything. Nothing that happened isn't standard practice for any other codex, except for posting an apology for releasing a shoddy product. They don't usually do that for any of their other shoddy product. If there is an increase in people claiming refunds, GW will happily provide them to maintain their image and be really heartbroken about those hundreds or thousands of dollars by which their profits decrease while they prepare to rake in the extra cash from the standalone Squat releases that will benefit from the goodwill the swift reaction and apology earn.

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