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Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

A unit of bloodletters has no LOS to any enemy unit, and its not within engagement range of any enemy units. It is hiding behind a LOS blocker. The stratagem is played on that unit.

1. Can the bloodletter unit move in any direction ?
2. If yes, what if after moving 4", the unit now has LOS on an enemy unit, does it now have to move closer towards that enemy unit, or can it continue in the same direction where it started to move ? Can it stop at 3.9" when it has no LOS on that enemy unit ? When is LOS checked ? At the start of the normal move, during the normal move, or at the end of it ?
2. What if that unit has moved 5.9" and at 6" it now has LOS on an enemy unit ? It cannot move any more, and it hasnt ended its move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. Does it have to end its move at 5.9", because at 6" it wouldnt be able to move closer towards the closest visible enemy unit ?

Frenetic bloodlust
Use this stratagem at the start of the fight phase. Select one BLOODLETTERS CORE unit from your army.

If that unit is not within engagement range of any enemy units, make a normal move of up to 6" with that unit. It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit.


   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Either they can not move, or they can move in any direction.

This one needs an FAQ.

Either way it would never be #2 or #3 above.

You determine the "closest visible enemy unit." when the strat is played.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I think the sensible resolution is to allow them to move in any direction, otherwise the stragem does nothing. For fluff reasons they obviously should be using this to get closer to something that they can attack, but I wouldn't make that enforcable.

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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

They can move the full 6” in any direction. Closest visible enemy unit is determined at the time you use the Stratagem, not at any point during the move. Furthermore, there is no requirement there be any such unit to use the stratagem.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either they can not move, or they can move in any direction.

This one needs an FAQ.

Either way it would never be #2 or #3 above.

You determine the "closest visible enemy unit." when the strat is played.


Why shouldnt they be able to move ? The first sentence says they must make a normal move. If there is no visible enemy unit they move in any direction.

And why is the closest visible enemy unit determined when the strat is played, and not during the normal move ? What rule do you base this upon ?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Bilge Rat wrote:
I think the sensible resolution is to allow them to move in any direction, otherwise the stragem does nothing. For fluff reasons they obviously should be using this to get closer to something that they can attack, but I wouldn't make that enforcable.


Well not every stratagem has to do something every time. Doing very good thing when enemy is visible has value of it's own even lf some cases it doesn"t do anythinr.

So unable to move at some times isn't arqument you must be able to move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/03 17:17:28


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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 p5freak wrote:

And why is the closest visible enemy unit determined when the strat is played, and not during the normal move ? What rule do you base this upon ?


Probably the fact that movement is a single action with no pause. You move in one action. You only make a situational change at the end of movement. When your hand has left the model and its movement is completed.




And yes if there were no visible enemy units then you couldn't move because there would be no visible enemy unit to move closer toward.


The stratagem starts - you identify the closest visible enemy unit and must then use the movement you gain to move closer to that unit by the end of the granted allocation of movement inches. If you can't move any closer then you'd not move; if you move out of line of sight that's fine because you don't have to maintain line of sight; just a shorter distance than you began with.

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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 p5freak wrote:
Why shouldnt they be able to move ? The first sentence says they must make a normal move. If there is no visible enemy unit they move in any direction.
Overread agrues, you can't use the Stratagem if there is no visible enemy unit because you could not meet the requirement to move closer to the closest visible enemy unit if there is no such unit.
And why is the closest visible enemy unit determined when the strat is played, and not during the normal move ? What rule do you base this upon ?
Because the stratagem states that you must move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. If Unit A is 10" away and visible but Unit B is 6" away but not visible, you must move closer to Unit A. This remains true even if the course of moving towards Unit A makes Unit B visible because Unit B was not the closest visible enemy unit when you started your move.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




If there is no visible enemy unit, it has fulfilled the requirement by moving in any direction.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Even when it states

"It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit."


There's a must in that. If there is no visible enemy unit you cannot end the movement closer to them than you began. The only viable way you could resolve it then is to not move.

It might well be something that should be FAQ'd to confirm GW's intent as you could interpret it and argue either way.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 alextroy wrote:

And why is the closest visible enemy unit determined when the strat is played, and not during the normal move ? What rule do you base this upon ?
Because the stratagem states that you must move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. If Unit A is 10" away and visible but Unit B is 6" away but not visible, you must move closer to Unit A. This remains true even if the course of moving towards Unit A makes Unit B visible because Unit B was not the closest visible enemy unit when you started your move.


That is not what the stratagem is saying. It says you must end the move closer to the closest visible enemy unit, not move closer towards the closest visible enemy unit at the start of the move. If during moving another unit becomes the closest enemy unit the bloodletters must end their move closer to that enemy unit, because it is now the closest visible enemy unit.

 Overread wrote:
Even when it states

"It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit."


There's a must in that. If there is no visible enemy unit you cannot end the movement closer to them than you began. The only viable way you could resolve it then is to not move.


But the first sentence says you must make a normal move, so you have to move. You could make a normal move of 0", because it says you make a normal move of up to 6".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 03:14:23


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I emailed gwplc about this. Hopefully we will get an FAQ.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 p5freak wrote:


 Overread wrote:
Even when it states

"It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit."


There's a must in that. If there is no visible enemy unit you cannot end the movement closer to them than you began. The only viable way you could resolve it then is to not move.


But the first sentence says you must make a normal move, so you have to move. You could make a normal move of 0", because it says you make a normal move of up to 6".


So do that then. Another pointless YMDC thread resolved.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 p5freak wrote:

And why is the closest visible enemy unit determined when the strat is played, and not during the normal move ? What rule do you base this upon ?
Because the stratagem states that you must move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. If Unit A is 10" away and visible but Unit B is 6" away but not visible, you must move closer to Unit A. This remains true even if the course of moving towards Unit A makes Unit B visible because Unit B was not the closest visible enemy unit when you started your move.


That is not what the stratagem is saying. It says you must end the move closer to the closest visible enemy unit, not move closer towards the closest visible enemy unit at the start of the move. If during moving another unit becomes the closest enemy unit the bloodletters must end their move closer to that enemy unit, because it is now the closest visible enemy unit.



Except a move is one single action. It's not until after the move is completed that you would re-evaluate what is and isn't visible to that unit.


Sure whilst a unit moves you might check visibility, ranges and you might physically move the model in one or more steps to ensure that you move the correct distance. But the whole of the "move" is one fluid action. So there's only 1 time you check visibility as applies to the rules; and that is before the model is moved.
Before the model is moved you establish visibility. The closest visible unit is then your target for the Stratagem. You then perform your move and must end closer to the targeted visible unit. If you move out of visibility or into visibility of another unit doesn't matter because the game rules only have you checking visibility before the move and the move is one self contained action.


The only grey area is if there are no visible models at the start. Which I would argue means you cannot end your move closer and thus means you would make a move of 0 inches because it is impossible to complete the entire rule. In a practical game sense most people would not use this stratagem on a unit that had no visible enemy units, and since you can establish if something is visible before you declare use of the stratagem the chances where you would declare it with no viable target is basically zero.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/04 09:33:37


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Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Overread wrote:

Except a move is one single action. It's not until after the move is completed that you would re-evaluate what is and isn't visible to that unit.


Citation please.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
The first sentence says they must make a normal move.
Well that right there is false.

It does not say must make a normal move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 14:53:19


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Except a move is one single action. It's not until after the move is completed that you would re-evaluate what is and isn't visible to that unit.


Citation please.

You only check once, in the same way you only check what the closest visible target for Smite is once. You don't roll 3 MW on Smite, kill one model, then check to see if another model from a different unit is now the closest and start applying wounds there.

There are some things the rules will not explicitly say. You're welcome to continue your pointless crusade to try to win internet points in these arguments, but if everyone plays a rule one way, has always played it that way, and you can't come up with a valid reason why we shouldn't continue to do so, you don't have much of an argument.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

If there is no visible enemy unit, you cannot satisfy the “must” in the final sentence. No move.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
The first sentence says they must make a normal move.
Well that right there is false.

It does not say must make a normal move.


Thats true, it doesnt actually say must make a normal move. But it instructs you to make a normal move, it doesnt say you can make a normal move. Making a move is mandatory, you cant choose to not make a normal move. Therefore you must make that normal move.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If there is no visible enemy unit, you cannot satisfy the “must” in the final sentence. No move.


Then you didnt satisfy what the first sentence says, because it instructs you to make a normal move. If you dont move you didnt make a normal move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:

There are some things the rules will not explicitly say. You're welcome to continue your pointless crusade to try to win internet points in these arguments, but if everyone plays a rule one way, has always played it that way, and you can't come up with a valid reason why we shouldn't continue to do so, you don't have much of an argument.


This is the first time ever we see a rule like this. You cannot claim that everyone plays a rule one way, and has always played it that way, because a rule like this didnt exist before. And just because everyone plays a certain rule in a certain way doesnt mean that thats the right way to play it. Which is also not true, because 40k is not played the same way everywhere, by everyone.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/04 19:29:01


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 JohnnyHell wrote:
If there is no visible enemy unit, you cannot satisfy the “must” in the final sentence. No move.
yes you can. There is no visible unit, therefore it is a nullity.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Standard p5 thread made to bicker about.

Anyone got any, you know, legit questions? Or is every thread BCB-lite “OP asks a trap question, OP baits people, OP berates everyone”? Cos five edit: six locked threads from one guy on the first page of YMDC should tell you something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 21:43:40


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





 JohnnyHell wrote:
Standard p5 thread made to bicker about.

Anyone got any, you know, legit questions? Or is every thread BCB-lite “OP asks a trap question, OP baits people, OP berates everyone”? Cos five edit: six locked threads from one guy on the first page of YMDC should tell you something.


I think this one is actually a legit question (intentionally or otherwise). Personally, I think we already arrived at the current solution (of sorts): ask GW for clarification and hope for an FAQ. In the mean time, discuss it with your opponent, 4+ it, or ask the TO (whichever best applies to your personal situation for that game).
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

It was a genuine question at some point, but p5 can’t help his bait/berate behaviour, so isn’t doing himself favours. This OP includes two options labelled 2. and two of the options aren’t even supported by a cursory reading of the rules (checking LOS conditions partway through a move is just inventing rules from whole cloth). I’m with you on “otherwise”, but seriously… if there’s no visible unit the rule doesn’t suddenly mean “just move anywhere”. Not sure how people are making that leap. Lack of restriction is not permission, and not meeting a restriction is equally not permission. You don’t get halfway through a rule and decide it works, YOLO. Satisfy the whole set of rules or you can’t satisfy any. Basic principle that bears out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/05 06:30:51


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I'm still waiting for a rules citation which says that LOS is only checked once at the beginning of the move. Without that your guess is as good as mine. My argument is based on the second sentence, that's my citation.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

You can check line of sight during a move.

People do it all the time when moving to ensure that they will have line of sight on a desired target at the end of their movement.



However this stratagem does not at any point say that a unit has to maintain line of sight through the move. Nor does it say that line of sight has to change to a new closest enemy model during the move. It doesn't permit nor require you to check line of sight during the move itself.

You do it once at the start to enable it to work, once established its fixed for the rest of the move.

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Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





(Resisting the urge to play dumb and ask what "Select one BLOODLETTERS CORE unit from your army" has to do with movement.)

"It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit"
If we're being painfully literal here, you could interpret this to mean you check LOS twice (you can't know if you are closer otherwise). Once before moving and once after moving. Furthermore, if you're really wanting to really push the rules around it could be interpreted to mean that the nearest enemy unit would not have to be the same one for both LOS checks. If either one of those LOS checks fails to find an enemy unit, the rules break down. You can either discuss it with your opponent to find a mutually agreeable solution, 4+ it, ask a TO/other authority for a ruling, or stop playing.

For the record, personally, I wouldn't approach this in the way I just outlined (feels bad faithy).
I'd be okay playing this as you have to have LOS at either the start or the finish of the move (the planned end point of the move would be clear because my opponent and I would discuss this when the rules issue came up), I'm on the fence as to whether the distance has to always be measured to the same unit, tbh. I'd probably go with rule of cool for that though. If there's never a visible unit, I'd probably suggest not using the strat (unless rule of cool had a really cool case going for it in that specific situation). Of course this would all be tempered by my opponent's opinions on the subject, because that's how things should work. Citation: It's how I would play it in a friendly match (all my matches are friendly) so it's completely opinion-based.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for the record, I don't disagree with LOS should be checked at the start of move... I just tend to be a generous opponent.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/05 10:31:21


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Overread wrote:
You can check line of sight during a move.

People do it all the time when moving to ensure that they will have line of sight on a desired target at the end of their movement.


So we do check LOS during movement..

 Overread wrote:

You do it once at the start to enable it to work, once established its fixed for the rest of the move.


You just said that people check LOS during movement, and now you are saying that LOS is only checked once, and then fixed ? Why ? What rule do you base this upon ?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

You can check line of sight at the start of a move just like you can check distances at the start of a move.


You can check line of sight and distances during a move as well.

However even though line of sight and distances change during the course of a model moving, they don't change the state of distances and line of sight at the start. The start is a fixed constant state.


If you are out of range for an ability at the start of a movement,you can't just move your model a little bit and then declare that you are now in rage during the move.
The move has to finish before you can check the status again.

The model has to stop moving before you can finalise any information regarding it - line of sight, distances etc...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/05 12:48:55


A Blog in Miniature

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Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 p5freak wrote:
 Overread wrote:
You can check line of sight during a move.

People do it all the time when moving to ensure that they will have line of sight on a desired target at the end of their movement.


So we do check LOS during movement..

 Overread wrote:

You do it once at the start to enable it to work, once established its fixed for the rest of the move.


You just said that people check LOS during movement, and now you are saying that LOS is only checked once, and then fixed ? Why ? What rule do you base this upon ?


How many units are visible before you attempt to play the Strat?

Regardless of your desire for the game to be an endless flux state, parking that for now, at the exact point you play the Strat how many visible units are there? Zero. If zero, there is no closest visible enemy. How can you end a move close to this non-existant unit? It’s impossible to reconcile. “I’ll start moving and figure out which is closer and visible after I start moving” isn’t anything supported by any precedent in this game. It’s faintly preposterous, to be honest. I don’t think you understand what a citation means, which is wild given how often you bark “Citation needed.”

I smell a seventh locked thread incoming. Jussayin.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I just want to know why LOS is checked at the start of the move and then is fixed. Just saying thats the way it is because i say so doesnt work in a rules discussion. I have provided a citation for my interpretation, and i expect other people to provide a citation for their interpretation as well.
   
 
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