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We know that The Old World (TOW) is supposed to be a return of the classic WFB with Cathay and Kislev joining the party.

I think many of us in exuberance expect this means all factions back with new models (or least old models in production) on Day 1 but we also know that ain't gonna happen. So realistically what can we expect?

At time of death WHFB had 15(!!) major factions


1-Elves, High
2-Elves, Dark
3-Elves, Wood
4-Dwarves
5-Humans, Empire
6-Humans, Brettonian
7-Humans, Vampiric
8-Humans, Skeletal
9-Humans, Chaotic
10-Humans, Lizard
11-Humans, Rat
12-Humans, Beast
13-Ogres
14-Orcs and Goblins
15-Daemons

And to be viable each would need at least 5 kits (2x infantry, cavalry, monster, leader/elite) and we'd want many more.

Ain't gonna happen, even if they just bring back OOP kits and put some square bases in AoS kits.

So what is realistic?

Launch box with 2 newish factions (Kislev vs Chaos let's say). Some Grand Alliance books (say 3, good guys, bad guys, chaos) with lists for old armies and guides to using AoS models (for new players).

This has the problem that GW would putting out rules for armies that are long OOP and practically telling people to buy from ebay, 3rd parties or (gulp) 3d print.

Anyone see anything else that can work?

My impression is that GW is wiping the slate clean for Old World.

That is to say they are moving to a new period in the timeline and to forces that previously were either under supported or not supported at all.

This isn't them putting out a new edition of the oldgame and is more of them rebooting the setting not the model lines themselves.



So right now I do not expect them to put out army books for original armies. In GW's view those models and armies were either retired or moved to AoS.


Now will some old armies come back? Most likely yes. However because GW isn't selling those armies and models any more with square bases (even if they are sold under AoS now) then I don't see GW releasing big army books for forces that might never see a battlefield from GW or might be a decade or more away.
I think the concept of rank and file fantasy combat and the setting are coming back; but the characters will change (new time period); the models will change; heck we'll likely see some shift in scale of things (larger mounts) and of style (a touch more high fantasy and flamboyant styling).




It will be interesting to see how GW handles it. In theory armies like Chaos don't even need any new models and GW could get around having to re-list AoS kits by simply releasing movement trays with round slots on them

I think a huge huge huge part depends on what intentional cross over between Old World and AoS is. What kind of provision GW makes for this is going to be huge in how its taken up.
Accepting that in the last year or so AoS seems to have fallen a bit to the side - however the last two years have been exceptionally abnormal




Another thing to consider is the visual and experience of the game. AoS 3.0 has pushed heavily for smaller unit numbers. Heck at 2K points you can only field 2 full troop blocks and everything else is minimum numbers. I wonder if GW will push AoS 4.0 even more toward a skirmish style game whilst pushing Old World toward the big rank and file infantry blocks and such. Creating not just different models, setting, lore and styles but also different types of visual game experience and model count

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


This has the problem that GW would putting out rules for armies that are long OOP and practically telling people to buy from ebay, 3rd parties or (gulp) 3d print.

There's precedent from Specialist Games with this. Blood Bowl did(still does?) it with each of the Season books containing OOP teams.

I'm still of the opinion that they'll do it HH1.0 style with "campaign" books featuring specific armies during specific historical re-fights rather than setting the game in any one era. So you'll get the releases for the 2 featured armies plus a small number of army lists for OOP factions that fit into that era. So like a "Siege of Praag" book with Kislev(new army they can release everything for) vs Chaos Warriors with additional lists for Empire, Beastmen, and Daemons(all of which still have most of their models available from AoS).

My dream scenario is that GW releases a kit or two for most factions, and they release them alongside big faction index books while we wait for range refreshes. Wood Elves, for example, really just need a nice basic or dual archer kit and cavalry kit to be in decent shape. I think most other factions are in a similar boat, assuming we can get old kits back. This is in line with GW's current practices of only having rules for kits and weapon options that are out. High Elves and Skaven will struggle without Island of Blood and other older factions are likewise screwed.

Realistically I don't think that's going to happen. I think we'll get a nice Kislev starter box vs. Chaos as you say, and a fleshed-out Kislev range. Then nothing for a long while until Cathay. AoS updates like the upcoming chaos warriors and the rumored Cities updates will keep us satiated.

I think as long as we get rules for most armies and a couple of factions you can build with kits you can buy off the shelf, we'll survive until we get the updates some factions rightly deserve. Praying to the lady for you, Bretonnia. Assuming the game actually sells well and GW doesn't put it on life support.

Well, to me it's obvious we won't have this number of factions at launch. First because "the Old World project" isn't called "the Old World" for nothing, and the reason they focused their maps on the very Old World part of the...well, Warhammer Battle world. Pretty obvious the high elves, Lustria and dark elves just to name them will stay in their respective lands for a while.

So yeah, a starter box involving Kislev and something else, a few other boxes for others factions in the following months and the rest will be revealed in due time.

As for rules, books for the factions covered at launch in a near future, maybe the rest will have a Savage Horde treatment so that they can wait their turn, but otherwise I don't see GW rushing things and certainly not launching 15 army boxes at the same time.

See Horus Heresy. We're still waiting for the Imperial Guard like book, aren't we. Well, I believe the Old World will be the same...on a whole other scale, of course.

 Overread wrote:
My impression is that GW is wiping the slate clean for Old World.




So right now I do not expect them to put out army books for original armies. In GW's view those models and armies were either retired or moved to AoS.

One of the limited pieces that they have leaked out about the Old Word was that our old armies will be playable. They didn't dance around it, they weren't vague, they didn't hedge their bets. They directly stated the the old armies would be good to go.

So leads me to believe that we will get a book like Ravening Hordes with rules (albeit basic) for all factions at launch, and then GW will go on their merry way releasing new kits or full books for old armies as they see fit. It is entirely possible some factions don't ever get an update past that book, but I believe at launch all will be playable.

I also think its likely we see kits similar to heresey where there is a base kit and then an upgrade sprue for your specific chapter. I expect multiple empire factions given the time period, and little resin sprues to make them all unique. A knight sprue could also serve Bretonnians, and you could get a lot of mileage out of an elf kit + upgrade sprues for wood, high and dark.

I'd expect a new rulebook alongside a get-you-by Ravening Hordes set of streamlined rules for the old 15 armies.
I'd then expect original releases brought out slowly, in waves of 1-4 factions similar to the Horus Heresy books. A modest initial release of 6-8 kits per faction with the aim of backfilling later.

Completely spitballing, but say:
- The Old World core rulebook, Ravening Hordes Mk2 and a (Good vs Bad) starter
- The Old World Part 1: 4 core factions detailing the Empire civil war and subsequent development to the Great War against Chaos
- The Old World Part 2: Pad out the game with some fan-favourites
- The Old World Part 3: Round out the game with the smaller or more niche factions
- Several filler/campaign books with scenarios to justify new releases for everyone.
- The Great War against Chaos summer mega campaign: SoC2 Electric Boogaloo

I'm interested to see how they resolve Old kits updated to a new scale. The AoS models sometimes fit aesthetically, but there is no way you are getting new Chaos Knights to rank up on a 25*50mm cavalry base.

Oh there won't be 1 army.list book, I figure anywhere from 3 to 5 $100 HCs. When you're going for nostalgia you're going to milk every penny

I expect old world will mirror the latest horus heresy release.

My expectation is that it'll be focused on empire civil war, with other factions being sideshow to that. (Like in 30k marines are #1, everything else is less supported).

There will be a score of universal plastic kits for empire, with resin upgrades, characters and unique units.

Non-empire factions will be slowly released over time, but with much more limited plastic kits.

One (exceedingly unlikely) possibility is the initial series of releases covers, let's say, 2 types of core troops per army, with skirmish style rules. And you can also make your low-level hero(es) out of pieces from those boxes. Yes, there is already Warcry for fantasy skirmish, but the word very early would be "we're doing this to give everyone something to buy and play with as we build to army-size battles."

This would get you set up in to old world with the promise of big, ranked battles coming later, and you'd be able to use all these troops in your armies later on.

Then GW releases more elaborate sets as we go to fill out armies. Like the story enters into big, open plains or chaotic wastes, so all the armies get their cavalry unit. Then another focusing on sieges, so you get your artillery units for everyone. It would be nice if they did releases giving a little to each army as they go, but that would mean campaign-style books rater than army-specific ones.

Yeah, probably not, but this would be cool.

I'm thinking battle sets. Something like a repressing of Skull Pass and Island of Blood to get some starter sets out. I could see them hammering out the 6th Ed. set as well unless they wanted to throw some Chaos models for the Empire to fight. We have enough kits to do some vs. sets with about 3 units per side. Skimpy units, but units nonetheless. A single character model per side for each box, GW's typical outlandish pricing, and you're set for release.

 jaredb wrote:
I expect old world will mirror the latest horus heresy release.

My expectation is that it'll be focused on empire civil war, with other factions being sideshow to that. (Like in 30k marines are #1, everything else is less supported).

There will be a score of universal plastic kits for empire, with resin upgrades, characters and unique units.

Non-empire factions will be slowly released over time, but with much more limited plastic kits.

I'm expecting similar. However, I think it depends. If they want a big audience early, they need enough kits to get people in to buy new stuff. They made it clear that you can freely use your old edition WFB. Maybe the reason for the length of time between updates and release is that they are producing a lot for release.

I kind of wish they would do 1 army specific Made To Order selection each month for metal and plastic units. There's so much legacy material out there and if people know Febuary is Orcs and Goblins month they can plan to save up in advance. It isn't sustainable to have the entire Warhammer catalog available at all times, but by just focusing on one faction a month they can make the old stuff available and manageable.

If we're putting money on the table I would guess we'll see something like:

Launch Box (2 new factions)
3-5 Eye wateringly expensive army books for the legacy factions
Made to order?
(The game slowly disappears and dies)

I just cannot see GW putting money and shelf space into a game they killed 5 years ago and which would be their 3rd 28mm fantasy wargame.

Willing to be proven wrong but not expecting to be.

They killed Warhammer 7 years ago and announced The Old World 3 years ago.

I have low to no expectations.

Splash release followed by neglect would make a lot of sense.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


I just cannot see GW putting money and shelf space into a game they killed 5 years ago and which would be their 3rd 28mm fantasy wargame.

You mean like they killed then resurrected Necromunda and Blood Bowl ?

Joke aside, depends of their expectations and sale numbers when it will be out in the end, I'd say. After all, we know they weren't expecting Adeptus Titanicus to be that popular when it was released.

Shelf space management has changed a lot since Warhammer Battle days, even core games don't have everything anymore in the stores. Who knows what other changes will come until the day the Old World project is fulfilled ?

To me, the comparison with Horus Heresy is the most accurate we can relate with this Old World project.

Sarouan wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


I just cannot see GW putting money and shelf space into a game they killed 5 years ago and which would be their 3rd 28mm fantasy wargame.

You mean like they killed then resurrected Necromunda and Blood Bowl ?

And Adeptus Titanicus!

I expect the usual suspects to tell me it'll suck/not be on squares/will be Warmaster/every other garbage tier doomer naysaying until it hits.

Honestly i think there's two possibilities how this can go:
A: it is square, same base size, in order to make the playerbase big from the start, allowing for older models to be used.
GW will make new models but also add squares to certain AoS ones.
The money will be made with rules.

B: GW will not tap into the vets and throw out a whole slew of new models and square sizes to NOT be compatible with the old models..

i tend to think it will be B.

I'm unlikely to be a buyer, but as someone who is currently playing a campaign now set in the Old World, but with KoW rules, I'm very interested to see how this plays out.

I really have my doubts that we're going to see something that looks like WHGB. A core issue is that GW seems dead-set against lowering the price-per-mini for their games, and rank-and-flank games (if they're going to make anything like WHFB) generally require ALOT of minis. WHFB was already becoming prohibitively expensive when it was phased out and the cost-per-fig from GW has only gone up. Cadians are now $5 each. If that's a guide, is there anybody out there wanting to spend $80-100 per-regiment just to play a new version of WHFB?

Regardless of what kind of bases are used I suspect we might see something in scope that is more like AOS and less like WHFB.

This is not even really a prediction, but one way that they could go is to keep round bases and go with a system like Runewars where it still is a rank-and-flank game with block-unit tactics, but uses far fewer figures. It basically died the moment Legion was released, but it was a very tight ruleset and really managed to fit the mass-battle feel into less space and fewer figures. You can get an idea for what it looked like with the Daqan army I painted for it.


Also, I don't have the game, but I hear that Song of Ice and Fire is a similar system. but with bigger bases.

Damn, I was pretty close...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly i think there's two possibilities how this can go:
A: it is square, same base size, in order to make the playerbase big from the start, allowing for older models to be used.
GW will make new models but also add squares to certain AoS ones.
The money will be made with rules.

B: GW will not tap into the vets and throw out a whole slew of new models and square sizes to NOT be compatible with the old models..

i tend to think it will be B.

The Old World being compatible with old armies, and GW wanting people to be able to use their old armies was one of the very first things said about the project. So I wouldn't bet a lot of money on your prediction.

Definitely a reduction of unit sizes. As others have mentioned the 8th edition paradigm simply isn't viable.

New named characters. It is set in a different time period; many factions iconic characters do not yet exist, and their creative team will be looking to fill in the lineup.

Ceaseless bitching from the community for the dumbest possible reasons. Legitimate complaints too, but the majority boiling down to 'I personally do not like this so it is objectively bad.'

I'm hoping they use 6th or 7th core rules as a base, and not 8th.

But my biggest wish is no dice rolling for running and charges, and very few attacks. Very few dice being rolled until you pull out your heavy hitters.

Clanrats in ranks of 5 moving up, getting 5 attacks, versus Plaguemonks in ranks of 6 getting in and getting 24 attacks feels a lot better than every unit rolling tons of dice.

Grail Seeker wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly i think there's two possibilities how this can go:
A: it is square, same base size, in order to make the playerbase big from the start, allowing for older models to be used.
GW will make new models but also add squares to certain AoS ones.
The money will be made with rules.

B: GW will not tap into the vets and throw out a whole slew of new models and square sizes to NOT be compatible with the old models..

i tend to think it will be B.

The Old World being compatible with old armies, and GW wanting people to be able to use their old armies was one of the very first things said about the project. So I wouldn't bet a lot of money on your prediction.

What gw says and gw does are two separate things entirely.

They specifically said that it'll be a rank-and-flank game with square bases. They also said that Kislev will be a full faction, with bear cavalry and other weirdness as seen in Total War Warhammer 3.
They implied (through a map of the Empire with icons dotted across it) that the Empire will be broken up into multiple factions.

It seems weird to me that people here think they won't do any of that. They haven't said much about it, and you reckon that they'll go back on what little they have definitively announced?

antia wrote:
They specifically said that it'll be a rank-and-flank game with square bases. They also said that Kislev will be a full faction, with bear cavalry and other weirdness as seen in Total War Warhammer 3.
They implied (through a map of the Empire with icons dotted across it) that the Empire will be broken up into multiple factions.

It seems weird to me that people here think they won't do any of that. They haven't said much about it, and you reckon that they'll go back on what little they have definitively announced?

"The game will suck. It won't be remotely old Warhammer. It'll be AOS Warmaster, or AOS Apocalypse, or something else that is simply AOS so why don't you guys just play AOS already, guys?!?!?!?!?"


Pretty much all the naysaying to this project to date.

antia wrote:
They specifically said that it'll be a rank-and-flank game with square bases. They also said that Kislev will be a full faction, with bear cavalry and other weirdness as seen in Total War Warhammer 3.
They implied (through a map of the Empire with icons dotted across it) that the Empire will be broken up into multiple factions.

It seems weird to me that people here think they won't do any of that. They haven't said much about it, and you reckon that they'll go back on what little they have definitively announced?

Where am i going back on? I just expect them to be Interessed in return from investment and i therefore doubt that old armies will be portable 1:1.

Warhammer Fantasy has already died once and GW are not going to go through the investment of bringing it back unless they expect it to be more profitable than how it ended up. Every old army brought out of storage is an army that GW did not make any profit on. While I fully expect every existing army to be playable initially to get the community foundations down, the long-term game plan is going to be based on selling more of the new which means the obsolescence of the old.
GW will provide rules for your 6/7/8E armies in the most basic sense, but ultimately they are here to sell you a new army because the game will not survive on the strength of veterans alone. This was already proven with the death of WFB8E.

Exactly what form that takes, I don't know. It might be as simple as new sculpts like 30k, or it could be new units based on historical rosters. The bases might well change and I'm pretty certain that in the event of a clash, they will choose alignment with AoS bases rather than old WFB.
Support for old armies does not mean indefinitely and I think it is naive to think that GW have any intentions beyond baiting players with nostalgia to buy back in.

One final note, I think it's important to note that, last I checked, every single person involved with TOW appears to be part of Forge World rather than the core studio. It was revealed by the head of FW, the maps are being created by FW artists and Neil was interviewed for the faction design. TOW being run by FW seems believable and I can imagine a similar attitude to old armies; while you can use your Mk7 Tacticals and Mars tanks to play 30k, you are expected to buy in with Mk2-6, Cataphractii Terminators and Deimos vehicles.

What could work:

New centre piece models for characters - epseically those that could also work in AOS either as the named character - pretty much any non human faciton or as a generic Lord in AoS - but GW tries to make as little money as possible with crossover items....
Tie in with Total War - although the bad launch for this has not helped - GW did do a (very half hearted) attempt at mutual support for it

Selling new models is obviously what they do - its their buisiness - as others have said - limited support for legacy models may be there but little else.