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wanted to see which troop choice in the new AM book looks like the best choice.

do you take

krieg for wounds against them always fail on a 1 or 2?

Cadians for the each hit generates an extra hit?

Generic for the squad heavy weapon?

i'm omitting catachan just because i dont like the models


thoughts?

Cadians > Dkok > Catachans

Idk where generic fits in.

Generic for me. Though I'll continue to use Cadian, Krieg, etc models to represent them as I please.

At the end of the day, I'm personally of the opinion that the specific models you are using don't matter so long as you and your opponent can easily distinguish which is which (and you're not being a jerk and making things purposely confusing), but I get the not everyone is okay with that and not every opponent is okay with that.

As I see it (feel free to correct me if I missed something as I don't have the codex yet):

Cadians getting the second special weapon + Vox + Exploding 6s + Cadian-specific strats + their points cost makes me lean strongly towards Cadians being the best option.

DKOK gets [3 special weapons OR a vox and 2 special weapons] (I think) + not wounded on a 2 (useful vs S6 or better weapons) + 5pt for a medic (ignore damage from first failed save) w/ medic strat + DKOK keyword-based strat benefits + higher points cost than Cadians

Generic gets 1 special weapon + heavy weapon team at cost of losing a lasgun + vox + same cost as Cadians

Catachan gets 2 flamers + vox + Catachan keyword-based strat benefits + higher points cost than Cadians (do Catachan get any extra wargear options...meltamine maybe?)

I kind of feel like the 4 infantry squad options were all balanced against the rest of the codex but didn't get completely balanced between each other (like maybe they said "we're aiming for the infantry squads to cost between X and Y points"). So they're all pretty close to being balanced (if Cadians and Catachans had their costs swapped, it'd feel a lot closer to being right...unless we're still missing some combo with Catachan infantry that can't be had with putting the jungle fighters regiment trait or whatever it's called on one of the other flavors of infantry squad).

Personally, I'm leaning towards always taking Cadians (I like to think of them as being trained in the style of Cadians rather than being Cadian for my own personal regiment fluff). That said, I haven't ruled out using DKOK as the underlying profile, although I'm personally not big on the gas mask look (here for the trench coats though). The medic is interesting as it gets you access to the strat (having the FNP medic would be waaaaaay better, but what can you do) and the 2 or 3 special weapons (I'm hesitant to ditch the vox). I suppose I could mix between Cadian and DKOK and have DKOK as my squads that are closer to the officers for orders range purposes and then take 3x special weapons in the DKOK squads.

As for the generics, lugging around the heavy weapon has never felt great as I get saddled with a -1 to hit with it whenever I want to move my squad. I'd rather have an extra special weapon. Now if the generic squad's heavy weapon team got some sort of ability to ignore the -1 to hit for moving then things might be different. Would that be a good idea from a game balance perspective? No clue.

close... krieg come standard with one plasma.
two more guys can take a special weapon but it cant be another plasma and they cant duplicate choices.

plasma guy has to sacrifice his gun for a vox... i dont get that decision but eh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
im tempted by the cadians, exploding 6's sound fun.
granted theyre lasguns except for the two specials.

i just cant figure out how good the no wounds on a 1 or 2 for krieg really is.

The annoying thing about the cadian exploding 6's is that it's only for lasguns and laspistols. I'm fine with the special weapons not getting exploding 6's...that's probably for the best. My annoyance comes from its interaction with the sergeant's new weapon...good news: GW finally listened and gave sergeants a lasgun weapon profile. Bad news: it's a special lasgun profile that's actually not a lasgun (it's an autogun or something) so you still have to roll it separately for the Cadian squads. >.< Personally I'd really really rather the sergeant literally just had a regular lasgun so I can roll it with all the other lasguns.

Cadians are the pretty obvious choice for tournament armies, because they cheap, have access to a transhuman strat, and can pack two plasma or melta. exploding sixes on las weapons is... fine, I guess? a couple of extra S3 hits is not nothing, but it's barely not nothing, if that makes sense.

Catachans are trash and have no place unless you really love their lore or whatever.

Kreig can't double up on specials, and IMO 2 of the same special is better than three different specials, especially since you have to give up the plasma for the VOX. That said, mini transhuman plus blanking one wound a phase makes them a little bit gritty. I dunno, I think unless you have a cunning plan, cadians are just cheaper and do the main things (stand on objectives and do chip damange) just as well.

the basic infantry squad is the only one that can take a heavy weapon, and like all heavy weapon infantry squads, that means you don't want to move. Maybe buy one or two to sit on home objectives or to hide out of LOS and harass with mortars.

It sucks, because my gut tells me the most efficient choice is obviously cadian with double plasma and the autogun. But maybe the meta or points will shift and something becomes a contender. For now, don't overthink it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
The annoying thing about the cadian exploding 6's is that it's only for lasguns and laspistols. I'm fine with the special weapons not getting exploding 6's...that's probably for the best. My annoyance comes from its interaction with the sergeant's new weapon...good news: GW finally listened and gave sergeants a lasgun weapon profile. Bad news: it's a special lasgun profile that's actually not a lasgun (it's an autogun or something) so you still have to roll it separately for the Cadian squads. >.< Personally I'd really really rather the sergeant literally just had a regular lasgun so I can roll it with all the other lasguns.

yeah, it's darkly hilarious that a rule that benefits the weakest guns in the game doesn't buff the sarges weapon. Because an extra 2/3 of a S3 hit a turn would be abusive.

Standard > Cadian >>>>> Krieg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catachan

The basic squad is IMO the best. Plasma, lascannon, plasma pistol is the best available weapon choice.

Cadians are a close second. The melta gun is worse than the lascannon + plasma pistol but not by much. The exploding 6s rule is worth very little and IMO the CADIAN keyword is highly situational when you have better buff targets. So it comes down to weapon preferences where there's room for disagreement.

Krieg are crippled by "no model no rules". You can take three special weapons but only two of them can be good weapons, and you lose one of those two good weapons if you want a vox. Plasma/melta/trash suffers from lacking a vox, and vox/melta/trash is just a Cadian squad but worse. And the defensive buffs will almost never apply unless the game has already been decided. OTOH if you play in a group that throws out the "no model no rules" nonsense plasma x3 and a vox becomes a compelling option.

Catachans just suck. You get a bad regiment buff and you can only take bad special weapons. There's no reason for this unit to exist

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
Standard > Cadian >>>>> Krieg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catachan

The basic squad is IMO the best. Plasma, lascannon, plasma pistol is the best available weapon choice.

You do pay extra for the plasma pistol, and the lascannon will usually be hitting at -1 due to moving. I kind of like the idea, and I hve the plasma pistol sarges to try it, but this boils down to if a lascannon and plasma pistol is better than a plasma gun and five points (which, given hunter killer missiles and armored tracks, have tempitng places to be spent).

On the one hand, obviously a lascannon is better than a plasma gun. Plasma will generally only double tap twice, and lascannons are way better against tanks and anything with damage reduction. For squads that move up to claim objectives, plasma is definitely better. I think you can talk me into two squads of basic infantry for home objectives, but past that, I want the mobility of plasma.

Cadians are a close second. The melta gun is worse than the lascannon + plasma pistol but not by much. The exploding 6s rule is worth very little and IMO the CADIAN keyword is highly situational when you have better buff targets. So it comes down to weapon preferences where there's room for disagreement.

Krieg are crippled by "no model no rules". You can take three special weapons but only two of them can be good weapons, and you lose one of those two good weapons if you want a vox. Plasma/melta/trash suffers from lacking a vox, and vox/melta/trash is just a Cadian squad but worse. And the defensive buffs will almost never apply unless the game has already been decided. OTOH if you play in a group that throws out the "no model no rules" nonsense plasma x3 and a vox becomes a compelling option.

Catachans just suck. You get a bad regiment buff and you can only take bad special weapons. There's no reason for this unit to exist

I pretty much agree with this. kriegs mini transhuman only affects S6 and above, while cadian transhuman, albeit costing 1CP, affects S4&5, and double affects S6. Transhuman is a clumsy and frustrating mechanic to play against, but it means that no matter what they shoot you with, they'll probably need 20 hits to wipe a squad, and that's great, especially later in games.

 Polonius wrote:
You do pay extra for the plasma pistol, and the lascannon will usually be hitting at -1 due to moving. I kind of like the idea, and I hve the plasma pistol sarges to try it, but this boils down to if a lascannon and plasma pistol is better than a plasma gun and five points (which, given hunter killer missiles and armored tracks, have tempitng places to be spent).

On the one hand, obviously a lascannon is better than a plasma gun. Plasma will generally only double tap twice, and lascannons are way better against tanks and anything with damage reduction. For squads that move up to claim objectives, plasma is definitely better. I think you can talk me into two squads of basic infantry for home objectives, but past that, I want the mobility of plasma.

I'm assuming that you're taking a plasma gun as your first special weapon in virtually all circumstances, so the choice is between a melta gun or a lascannon (plus plasma pistol if you want) for the second slot. And IMO the lascannon is the clear winner there. The melta gun can't shoot at all outside 12" and doesn't get its full advantage outside 6". Even if you're only out of melta range for a single turn having that extra shot from the lascannon easily makes up the difference.

I pretty much agree with this. kriegs mini transhuman only affects S6 and above, while cadian transhuman, albeit costing 1CP, affects S4&5, and double affects S6. Transhuman is a clumsy and frustrating mechanic to play against, but it means that no matter what they shoot you with, they'll probably need 20 hits to wipe a squad, and that's great, especially later in games.

Exactly. The Cadian one costs CP but protects you from bolters and other anti-infantry weapons, the Krieg one only protects against anti-tank weapons that are only going into infantry squads after the game is already decided.

What is transhuman?
I keep seeing that but am not sure what it means

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
What is transhuman?
I keep seeing that but am not sure what it means

Transhuman Physiology is a marine stratagem that a primaris squad can only be wounded on a 4+, a 1-3 always fails regardless of weapon strength or special rules. The term has been generalized to describe other instances of the same effect.

Ah gotcha. Thanks!

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
I'm assuming that you're taking a plasma gun as your first special weapon in virtually all circumstances, so the choice is between a melta gun or a lascannon (plus plasma pistol if you want) for the second slot. And IMO the lascannon is the clear winner there. The melta gun can't shoot at all outside 12" and doesn't get its full advantage outside 6". Even if you're only out of melta range for a single turn having that extra shot from the lascannon easily makes up the difference.

Cadians can take double plasma, despite the trend otherwise in the book to match the sprues.

 Polonius wrote:

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
I'm assuming that you're taking a plasma gun as your first special weapon in virtually all circumstances, so the choice is between a melta gun or a lascannon (plus plasma pistol if you want) for the second slot. And IMO the lascannon is the clear winner there. The melta gun can't shoot at all outside 12" and doesn't get its full advantage outside 6". Even if you're only out of melta range for a single turn having that extra shot from the lascannon easily makes up the difference.

Cadians can take double plasma, despite the trend otherwise in the book to match the sprues.

It's probably a typo since the * next to the options doesn't make sense (you can take 2 special weapons but cannot take more than 2 of the same type, huh ?). I wouldn't count on it to survive past the first FAQ/errata.

Selfcontrol wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
I'm assuming that you're taking a plasma gun as your first special weapon in virtually all circumstances, so the choice is between a melta gun or a lascannon (plus plasma pistol if you want) for the second slot. And IMO the lascannon is the clear winner there. The melta gun can't shoot at all outside 12" and doesn't get its full advantage outside 6". Even if you're only out of melta range for a single turn having that extra shot from the lascannon easily makes up the difference.

Cadians can take double plasma, despite the trend otherwise in the book to match the sprues.

It's probably a typo since the * next to the options doesn't make sense (you can take 2 special weapons but cannot take more than 2 of the same type, huh ?). I wouldn't count on it to survive past the first FAQ/errata.

This. I'm assuming the typo is fixed and dual plasma is not an intended option. If dual plasma is a real thing then the ranking order reverses and Cadians end up being the auto-take option.

 Truth118 wrote:
Cadians > Dkok > Catachans

Idk where generic fits in.

I’d put generic before DKOK. Purely for their cheap cost. The best part of DKOK is their ability to get 3 special weapons, the mini-transhuman is pretty situational.

I can't be arsed with all the faffing around and fiddly stupid rules, so I'm just gonna run all my models (mix of new Cadians and DKoK) as standard Infantry Squads with the 'proper' loadout – Sarge with a sword/pistol, special weapon, HWT. Nice and easy. Whether or not the Krieg lads are readily cross-compatible with the new HWT kit remains to be seen, but fingers crossed on that front.

Out of interest, when was the last time there was an official-publication reference to plasma guns being rare and difficult to make/ obtain? Was that quietly dropped once everyone started taking as many of them as possible in every army?

I keep seeing because x is cheaper. 5 points per squad is that much of a difference?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
I keep seeing because x is cheaper. 5 points per squad is that much of a difference?

It's a pretty big difference when a squad is 65. And it also is if you take a dozen squads. 50 points already is quite something.

 Nazrak wrote:
Out of interest, when was the last time there was an official-publication reference to plasma guns being rare and difficult to make/ obtain?

AFAIK it was in the FFG 40k RPG fluff back in '14 in the Dark Heresy 2 CRB.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Out of interest, when was the last time there was an official-publication reference to plasma guns being rare and difficult to make/ obtain?

AFAIK it was in the FFG 40k RPG fluff back in '14 in the Dark Heresy 2 CRB.

Cheers – so would I be right in thinking it's been ditched now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, I'm struggling to recall the last time I read something in a rulebook explaining exactly what the deal is with any given weapon, rather than them just being a statline on a datasheet…

 Nazrak wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Out of interest, when was the last time there was an official-publication reference to plasma guns being rare and difficult to make/ obtain?

AFAIK it was in the FFG 40k RPG fluff back in '14 in the Dark Heresy 2 CRB.

Cheers – so would I be right in thinking it's been ditched now?

I think it has been since the Primaris busting out all that plasma weapons.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
I keep seeing because x is cheaper. 5 points per squad is that much of a difference?

Yes and no. Obviously in the grand scheme of things, five points rarely matters.

However, unlike some armies, guard is pretty granular. It's not that there isn't plenty of room for five point upgrades in a 2000 point list, it's that guard are spoiled for choice when it comes to cheap upgrades. The following are some of the options that cost literally five points:

Plasma pistols
power fists on officers
power weapons on infantry sergeants
armored tracks on tanks
dozer blades on tanks
heavy bolter sponsons on tanks and valkyries
Hunter killer missiles
sentinel chainsaws
upgrading the hull heavy bolter on a tank to a lascannon
upgrading a multilaser on a valkyrie to a lascannon

Looking at that list, I think most people would strap heavy bolters to every vehicle they can before they spend anything on infantry. I'd also argue that hunter killers and chainsaws on sentinels are a better buy than most on the list. Paying ten points to bump a squad to become krieg, in a vacuum, is an trivial amount of points. bumping a squad to kreig instead of taking a pair of heavy bolter sponsons on a tank? IMO that's a bad call, brother.

As long as Cadians can take 2 of the same weapon, theyre my favorite. Close second is the generic infantry squad. Some regiment traits will pair well with embedded heavy weapons. Ill probably mix the 2 depending on regiment, shock troops for mobile elements and generic squads for holding ground

Krieg arent terrible but not a fan mainly because they have some bizarre restrictions. One of anything but plasma and if you do take a plasma you cant take a vox. Basically picking durability over damage the Cadians get.

Catachans are just... awful. Really no redeeming feature there. Theyre supposed to be the cqc squad with 1 attack apiece and the sarge cant even take a power weapon. If theyd given them 2 attacks base and the sarge a Catachan fang weapon for cqc we'd be getting somewhere but as is they have pretty much every bad thing for a guard squad and none of the good.

Really, on T3 5+ models, you could have made catachans WS3+, S4, 2A, and a native AP1... and they'd still be "okay" at best. Exploding sixes in melee is miniscule in comparison.

Tin foil hat time: I think that GW knows the OG catachan plastics are awful, and does not want to give anybody any incentive to buy them.

Probably a mix of infantry squads and shock troops - and dependant on the post launch FAQ/next balance dataslate I guess.

If shock troops do not get FAQ'd to 1 of each gun they are flat out the best all rounder (joint cheapest, best non-HWT shooting).

If the balance dataslate doesn't change too much, infantry squads are still really good as you would drop born soldiers probably for elite sharpshooters which helps the HWT a lot, and they are a useful unit for both screening and having a vox near heavy weapon squads/field ordnance.

Krieg are probably good in an all infantry list, as you don't need a vox in every unit so you get the most specials, and with no tanks the mini-transhuman actually does something.

Catachan suck.

 Insularum wrote:
Krieg are probably good in an all infantry list, as you don't need a vox in every unit so you get the most specials, and with no tanks the mini-transhuman actually does something.

The issue is that post-FAQ you can only take the bad special weapons for the third slot and it's not worth paying extra points for the privilege of taking a flamer or grenade launcher.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
Krieg are probably good in an all infantry list, as you don't need a vox in every unit so you get the most specials, and with no tanks the mini-transhuman actually does something.

The issue is that post-FAQ you can only take the bad special weapons for the third slot and it's not worth paying extra points for the privilege of taking a flamer or grenade launcher.

Has GW issued an FAQ for the new guard codex or is this an expected change?

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
Krieg are probably good in an all infantry list, as you don't need a vox in every unit so you get the most specials, and with no tanks the mini-transhuman actually does something.

The issue is that post-FAQ you can only take the bad special weapons for the third slot and it's not worth paying extra points for the privilege of taking a flamer or grenade launcher.

Has GW issued an FAQ for the new guard codex or is this an expected change?

Expected change because the printed text is an obvious typo.