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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Based on the new updates I honestly predict SM to start running away with tournaments when these changes are implemented. I just don't see how a faction can't dominate the meta when they are allowed to take almost every upgrade for free.

A Devastator squad equipped with 4 Lascannons just went from 155pts (Cherub) to 115pts and you can give the Sgt free upgrades as well
A Sternguard Vet squad equipped with Combi-Meltas and 2 Heavy meltas and Sgt with PF just went from 165pts to 100pts
A Aggressor Squad with Boltstorm/grenade launcher just went from 135pts to 90pts.

And those are just some of the ridiculous levels of power increase I'm talking about. With the insane amount of points reductions that Marines got, they can now take about 20% more units, and those new units will be fully kitted out with free upgrades.

Ironically, in a rare twist, with these ridiculous levels of points drops across the board for Marines; Several units which hadn't been playable before are now going to be OP and a few others will go from collecting dust to competitive. I just fear they went too far in the points cuts and drastically overvalued how much AoC was really worth.


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







SemperMortis wrote:
...Several units which hadn't been playable before are now going to be OP and a few others will go from collecting dust to competitive...


So...business as usual, then?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
Based on the new updates I honestly predict SM to start running away with tournaments when these changes are implemented. I just don't see how a faction can't dominate the meta when they are allowed to take almost every upgrade for free.

A Devastator squad equipped with 4 Lascannons just went from 155pts (Cherub) to 115pts and you can give the Sgt free upgrades as well
A Sternguard Vet squad equipped with Combi-Meltas and 2 Heavy meltas and Sgt with PF just went from 165pts to 100pts
A Aggressor Squad with Boltstorm/grenade launcher just went from 135pts to 90pts.

And those are just some of the ridiculous levels of power increase I'm talking about. With the insane amount of points reductions that Marines got, they can now take about 20% more units, and those new units will be fully kitted out with free upgrades.

Ironically, in a rare twist, with these ridiculous levels of points drops across the board for Marines; Several units which hadn't been playable before are now going to be OP and a few others will go from collecting dust to competitive. I just fear they went too far in the points cuts and drastically overvalued how much AoC was really worth.



We're talking about units that were in win rates of 30 to 40%.

Marines will die a lot faster now. And they'll die even faster in a mirror. 2 wounds without mitigation is pretty easy to drop.

I'm not sure I enjoy the increased lethality, but game on.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I dunno, AoC is pretty dam valuable. And afaik vanilla marines weren't doing too well anyways.

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Prediction:
I'll have no more trouble killing SM today+ than I did yesterday.
There'll just be a few more of them to kill.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just built a list for fun in News and Rumors with the new points cost, this is a 1,993 list with these new numbers. 19 different units including HQs, if you lump Meltas in with Combis it works out to 25 Meltas, 12 Multi-Meltas, 12 Lascannons, 2 Cyclone missile Launchers, 10 Thunder Hammers, 12 Powerfists, and 2 Power swords. Turn 1 you can unload an unholy amount of Melta into your opponent not to mention the 12(Technically 15) Lascannons turn 1. There just isn't much in the game right now that can stand up to that amount of turn 1 firepower. Oh, and if you used the older pts values, that works out to 2,883pts. So in other words this new list is getting 883pts of free upgrades.

Captain: Stormshield/TH: 95pts (add whatever relics/WL trait etc)
Librarian: Combi-Melta 80pts

Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts

Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Terminator Squad: 4x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 165pts
Terminator Squad: 5x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 198pts

Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts (Possibly a free attack Bike since it doesn't assign pts value, though I doubt it)
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts

Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts
Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts
Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/05 19:08:02


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





If that list comes anywhere near competitive then just bring contemptors with volkites which will be AP1 for longer and will have no AoC in the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
Prediction:
I'll have no more trouble killing SM today+ than I did yesterday.
There'll just be a few more of them to kill.


Easier time killing and only more if they decide to take actual infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/05 20:36:34


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




I think the free upgrades are super bad for the game, but I don't think this is going to radically alter the tournament meta.

Many, if not most, tournament lists are anti-marine by default, and reverting the global 'less squishy' AoC rule (as dumb as that was) is incredibly bad for them.

I'm not convinced that (mostly) free access to the now under-powered Imperium heavy/special weapons is going to make a big difference. They still aren't throwing a lot of Heavy 20 or Heavy 2 DamXd3+3 ignore invulnerable weapons around, and 9th edition has been treating that as far more normal and expected.


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





SemperMortis wrote:
Based on the new updates I honestly predict SM to start running away with tournaments when these changes are implemented. I just don't see how a faction can't dominate the meta when they are allowed to take almost every upgrade for free.

A Devastator squad equipped with 4 Lascannons just went from 155pts (Cherub) to 115pts and you can give the Sgt free upgrades as well
A Sternguard Vet squad equipped with Combi-Meltas and 2 Heavy meltas and Sgt with PF just went from 165pts to 100pts
A Aggressor Squad with Boltstorm/grenade launcher just went from 135pts to 90pts.

And those are just some of the ridiculous levels of power increase I'm talking about. With the insane amount of points reductions that Marines got, they can now take about 20% more units, and those new units will be fully kitted out with free upgrades.

Ironically, in a rare twist, with these ridiculous levels of points drops across the board for Marines; Several units which hadn't been playable before are now going to be OP and a few others will go from collecting dust to competitive. I just fear they went too far in the points cuts and drastically overvalued how much AoC was really worth.



Lol. I predict you are going to be flat out wrong if that's the worst you can think up for SM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Just built a list for fun in News and Rumors with the new points cost, this is a 1,993 list with these new numbers. 19 different units including HQs, if you lump Meltas in with Combis it works out to 25 Meltas, 12 Multi-Meltas, 12 Lascannons, 2 Cyclone missile Launchers, 10 Thunder Hammers, 12 Powerfists, and 2 Power swords. Turn 1 you can unload an unholy amount of Melta into your opponent not to mention the 12(Technically 15) Lascannons turn 1. There just isn't much in the game right now that can stand up to that amount of turn 1 firepower. Oh, and if you used the older pts values, that works out to 2,883pts. So in other words this new list is getting 883pts of free upgrades.


This list will get mauled...

And you have made some huge mistakes in your logic. Those 883 are expected to be worth 883(they are not), that the marines were balanced before(they were not) and every upgrade is worth same everywhere(they are not. Or how you think 1 thunderhammer in devastator squad is worth same as 10 thunderhammers in dedicated melee unit with more attacks and WS )

If this is best you can come up with don't go to tournaments...0-5 beckons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/05 21:52:05


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Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

i mean, I dont think semper is actaully suggesting that his list is good, it was clearly chosen to maximise the amount of "free" stuff he could pack in. But is point stands even without the hyperbole: Marines are at the point where they need hundreds of "extra" points now to compete.

i've seen a few people opine that free upgrades are bad, full stop, but i would counter argue that costed upgrades only matter if the cost is meaningful. I Agree that points are a lever of control to adjust relative value and force choices, but those choices need to be meaningful for it to matter.

Does the points cost of the majority of marine equipment matter all that much?


Either you needed it for your gameplan, and were going to pay it (more-or-less) regardless of cost, or you didnt care, in which case the cost is also meaningless, because you'd only ever pay the cost as a way to sink leftover points on something that *might* be useful. Whats the opportunity cost of giving a sergeant a thunder hammer vs his default chainsword? *Should* that be a decison a player is focused on, or should his list building efforts focus on some other trade off that has greater impact on the game?

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xerxeskingofking wrote:
i mean, I dont think semper is actaully suggesting that his list is good, it was clearly chosen to maximise the amount of "free" stuff he could pack in. But is point stands even without the hyperbole: Marines are at the point where they need hundreds of "extra" points now to compete.

but that's not really their point, from what I can tell - semper claims that SM will now dominate. That's a VERY different conclusion, and they're starting from a "marines are already too strong without the changes" point of view, from what I understood in the News thread. No idea why semper thinks that when the actual WRs are sub 50 for the best chapters and far below that for the others.

i've seen a few people opine that free upgrades are bad, full stop, but i would counter argue that costed upgrades only matter if the cost is meaningful. I Agree that points are a lever of control to adjust relative value and force choices, but those choices need to be meaningful for it to matter.

Does the points cost of the majority of marine equipment matter all that much?

Doesn't matter at all for external balance if the equipment is free (as in: backed into the base cost) or not.
Matters a ton for internal balance, and that balance has been pretty much taken out the back and shot, in terms of wargear. Internal balance between datasheets seems to be better now, though - if you take the best option available for each of your units. There's no longer any "shave some points off to squeeze in another unit by dropping one of the Lascannons" etc.


Either you needed it for your gameplan, and were going to pay it (more-or-less) regardless of cost, or you didnt care, in which case the cost is also meaningless, because you'd only ever pay the cost as a way to sink leftover points on something that *might* be useful. Whats the opportunity cost of giving a sergeant a thunder hammer vs his default chainsword? *Should* that be a decison a player is focused on, or should his list building efforts focus on some other trade off that has greater impact on the game?

Yeah, semper used a lot of entirely useless upgrades just to inflate the list. I kind of like the THs being free now as I play Salamanders and already ran Intercessors with TH Sarges - which was entirely useless in almost every game where I brought them like that. Now, I get to bring the cool guy every time - and I think that's what GW is aiming for, too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/05 23:20:58


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




I see a lot of people saying Semper is wrong while not giving their own top faction predictions...

Mine are:
Daemons (mixed buffs/nerfs to a strong faction)
Custodes (big buffs to a middle of the road faction)
Imperial Guard (no nerfs to a strong faction)

I don't think Space Marines make it quite that high, but I am a bit concerned by the price drops on the Primaris vehicles combined with 5 turns of Dev Doctrine. The problem with Marines is the deep bench of datasheets, if there is one or two good Elites, Fast Attack or Heavy Support, they will be able to take them all in the new AoO detachments.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the biggest winner of the update was custodes. On the other hand i think the loss of AOC is larger then the points reductions for SM.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




nekooni wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
i mean, I dont think semper is actaully suggesting that his list is good, it was clearly chosen to maximise the amount of "free" stuff he could pack in. But is point stands even without the hyperbole: Marines are at the point where they need hundreds of "extra" points now to compete.

but that's not really their point, from what I can tell - semper claims that SM will now dominate. That's a VERY different conclusion, and they're starting from a "marines are already too strong without the changes" point of view, from what I understood in the News thread. No idea why semper thinks that when the actual WRs are sub 50 for the best chapters and far below that for the others.


Just to clarify, I claim that SM will be a top meta army now. I claim that they (in my opinion) are going to be THE top army now. I openly admit I may be wrong. But nowhere in any of my posts did I suggest that my list was "good" nor did I say "Marines are already too strong". That is a flat out falsehood.

And Tneva, I also never said a TH in a Dev squad was equal value to that of an assault squad. I was using it as an example. However, those TH in Dev squads do have value if for no other reason than it allows the Dev squad flexibility and the ability to inflict dmg on a surprise attack against that unit. I can't remember the # of times i've tagged a Heavy Support choice with a unit of Trukkboyz just to slowly grind it down for a few turns, or the # of times i've had my Deffkoptas get stuck in against a unit like Devs, not expecting to kill them, but just denying them the ability to shoot for a few turns.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Prediction: There will be a hail of moaning/gnashing of teeth regarding the Custodes getting free reign on their strats again, and there will be massive calls for nerfs.

Orks will be completely silent to avoid anyone looking at how actually well off they are now.

Space Marines will become horde now, as you can kick out 17ppm elite units for some stupid reason. DA will likely take the trophy. If not IH.

GSC will cry in the corner, wondering what might have been if their book writer hadn't been popping hits of meth in between writing lines in their codex.

IG will continue to be mostly meh.
   
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Noctis Labyrinthus

Depends on the Marines. Imperial Fists will still probably be overlooked but yes, the best Marine factions will probably be at least among the top tier. Some factions like Grey Knights (technically loyalist Marines but they are so much more different from them than the other chapters) as well as maybe Custodes might be able to take them but yeah, generic loyalist Marines made out like bandits.
   
Made in us
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A Protoss colony world

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Prediction: There will be a hail of moaning/gnashing of teeth regarding the Custodes getting free reign on their strats again, and there will be massive calls for nerfs.

I don't think Custodes are going to dominate; that sounds like hyperbole talking. They might actually be competitive with something other than Dreadnought or Jetbike or Caladius spam. It'll be nice to face a Custodes list with, y'know, actual Custodes in it!

Orks will be completely silent to avoid anyone looking at how actually well off they are now.

Have you actually read stuff on Dakka before? Ork players will piss and moan about how they didn't get buffed enough and how the aircraft rule changes ruined their Wazbom Blastajets, yada yada...

Space Marines will become horde now, as you can kick out 17ppm elite units for some stupid reason. DA will likely take the trophy. If not IH.

Marines won't become hordes; they'll just be well-equipped (perhaps a bit more than they should be, but...eh). Elite units will actually feel elite when they can actually take the gear that makes them good. Dark Angels and Iron Hands will be the ones to watch, but I think Deathwatch might have a good shot now too.

GSC will cry in the corner, wondering what might have been if their book writer hadn't been popping hits of meth in between writing lines in their codex.

GSC just got a lot better; the removal of AoC will help some of their weapons get damage through, and some of their units got points drops and/or free gear. Plus they can take some Brood Brothers allies without having to pay CP to do it (might open up some wombo-combos).

IG will continue to be mostly meh.

Bruh...seriously? Kasrkin are still completely nuts with their MW spam, and Plasma Russes are completely bananas now. And that's just the very best stuff. That book is very solid.

Personally I predict a lot of moaning/gnashing of teeth because this is Dakka and the internet, and if there isn't anything to complain about they'll just invent something to complain about.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Made in dk
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I think this is a really great change, I hope SM absolutely destroy the game so we can get over this gak with free wargear. We tried it in 7th for feths sake. This is bad and stupid, but less bad and stupid than Armour of Contempt and Hammer of the Emperor so I'll start playing 2k again. We'll see if competitive is broken, I'll just play Crusade or Blood Angels if it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 06:37:11


 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





United Kingdom

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Have you actually read stuff on Dakka before? Ork players will piss and moan about how they didn't get buffed enough and how the aircraft rule changes ruined their Wazbom Blastajets, yada yada....


Orks have done very well out of this dataslate and the announced AoO in terms of making things more viable, but we've not been given any changes that realistically impacts what is already good.

Flash Gitz and Killa Kanz are worth considering in smaller games, but probably not at a higher level of play unless you take loads of them.

Regular Nobs might now be a niche pick for Trukkboyz with massed big choppas, but they're overshadowed by Mega Nobs once you start thinking about how much you're still spending on them.

Cheaper Kombi weapons and boys special weapons is nice, but no-ones going to be taking them as they don't really help out.

Painboy getting a drop is nice, but still don't see it being worth taking unless you really build around them.

The real winners for Orks is the Orkanauts. They're still overcosted, but they don't cost CP any more and you might actually consider taking one if you want a (kind of) durable beatstick unit and don't want to take Ghaz.

More than anything else, Orks main buff from all of these changes is that our lacklustre AP is worthwhile again against all of the PA factions. I see Orks moving up the board in terms of performance, but not by a big margin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 08:26:46


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Christ. . . All my weapons are free now? I mean, I enjoy what this means for my builds competitively but these changes are repulsive for the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
If that list comes anywhere near competitive then just bring contemptors with volkites which will be AP1 for longer and will have no AoC in the way.
Contemptors better be sure they don't die to Multimeltas and Las first.

Semper's list isn't great, but it illustrates the point well enough.

For yuks I got a build with 30 Lascannons. 33 counting Cherub shots. But spend the extra points on Devs to give everyone Multimeltas instead and the 33 Lascannon shots becomes 66 Multimelta shots. (Or 132 Grav Cannon shots)

132x .777 x .777 x .83 x2 = 66 MEQ kills before you get to all the potential free combi-plasma etc you can have going on.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/01/06 09:25:52


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 Insectum7 wrote:
Christ. . . All my weapons are free now? I mean, I enjoy what this means for my builds competitively but these changes are repulsive for the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
If that list comes anywhere near competitive then just bring contemptors with volkites which will be AP1 for longer and will have no AoC in the way.
Contemptors better be sure they don't die to Multimeltas and Las first.

Semper's list isn't great, but it illustrates the point well enough.

For yuks I got a build with 30 Lascannons. 33 counting Cherub shots. But spend the extra points on Devs to give everyone Multimeltas instead and the 33 Lascannon shots becomes 66 Multimelta shots. (Or 132 Grav Cannon shots)

132x .777 x .777 x .83 x2 = 66 MEQ kills before you get to all the potential free combi-plasma etc you can have going on.


I enjoy the sweet irony here "it's stupid, look how many marines and how easily these marines can kill them".
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd tend to be much closer to Semper than those disagreeing. I'd be very surprised if *something* from Marines wasn't top-tier.

If the proposed melta-spam army has a weakness its probably that its a bit slow aside from the bikes (which have issues over say something with fly or infantry to go through ruins). So its possible you could play around it. But that's a lot of squads to push objectives etc. I think it could do with some dedicated fast assault units that can troubleshoot - but having thunderhammers and powerfists everywhere will add up. If memory serves Siegler won his 2020 LVO semi-final on the back of a Intercessor Sergeant with Thunder Hammer killing 3 Shining Spears. A lucky roll perhaps - but the sort of thing you just aren't doing with a chainsword.

Certainly "I'll just get in a shooting war with a list packing 49 melta shots and 12 lascannons" isn't going to go well for most lists I can think of. As flagged, Las Devs feel like "we can do better". Ditching say a tactical squad or something for a drop-pod carrying 8 Grav cannons, two thunderhammers and combi-meltas feels kind of good.

Ultimately losing AoC will make Marines more vulnerable to AP-1. But with these points drops that leaves you in much the same spot - while having significantly better damage output across the army as a whole. Against AP- or AP2+ you are better off defensively and dramatically more punchy.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:
I'd tend to be much closer to Semper than those disagreeing. I'd be very surprised if *something* from Marines wasn't top-tier.

I agree. As usual, the point is being missed in favour of picking apart the specifics of the list rather than the general point it illustrates. I don't know exactly what a top-tier SM list will look like but I strongly suspect there's at least one out there now and it'll be very heavily leveraging the points drops and free wargear. I suspect it's most likely to be Iron Hands thanks to the Doctrine change. I think GW's continued attempts to make SM vehicles good will probably not pan out as all the free stuff and points drops on infantry seem like much better value than those on the vehicles.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Truly the balance is absurd when i can cut 30+% of unit cost for upgrades and by extention frontload that all in a list and achive basically not much...

What a time to be alive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 12:45:36


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




GW don't care for the balance, they want people to be able to use more and more toys.

they may as well shift to the Apoc rules system as at least thats fast

also whatever is done now is partly done so 10th is "better" when it lands
   
Made in ch
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leopard wrote:
GW don't care for the balance, they want people to be able to use more and more toys.

they may as well shift to the Apoc rules system as at least thats fast

also whatever is done now is partly done so 10th is "better" when it lands


Well considering the Akrs of omen detachment... yeah.

Still the fact that you can drop units by a 3rd in value due to free options and not get an "issue" is still pretty indicative about the fact that things went wrong.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
Truly the balance is absurd when i can cut 30+% of unit cost for upgrades and by extention frontload that all in a list and achive basically not much...

What a time to be alive.

Isn't it astonishing how many different colors of flames you start getting once a dumpster fire of this size really gets to burning?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
Contemptors better be sure they don't die to Multimeltas and Las first.

Semper's list isn't great, but it illustrates the point well enough.

For yuks I got a build with 30 Lascannons. 33 counting Cherub shots. But spend the extra points on Devs to give everyone Multimeltas instead and the 33 Lascannon shots becomes 66 Multimelta shots. (Or 132 Grav Cannon shots)

132x .777 x .777 x .83 x2 = 66 MEQ kills before you get to all the potential free combi-plasma etc you can have going on.


That's bowling ball math though.

30" range with a move penalty vs 53" with no penalty.

Often what happens in these kinds of threads is we lose sight of how the game happens on the table.

Do I think this is a bad move? Yea, probably - for slightly different reasons. Do I think marines will do well? Absolutely.

More than likely we'll be seeing a ton of plasma inceptors, which I was hoped would lose their abusable blast, but they did not.

On a macro level people will generally see the same number of models and softer marines and marines will do a lot more damage. At the same time strategic reserves are free, so, a short ranged marine list will lose on angles/lanes and will have to deal with units popping in beside them and taking away their first strike potential ( the opponent will need similar care and chaff ).

The gap between Nids and Marines was 20 to 30%. That's a lot of distance to cover. Ultimately Iron Hands will likely be the army to beat now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Ultimately losing AoC will make Marines more vulnerable to AP-1. But with these points drops that leaves you in much the same spot - while having significantly better damage output across the army as a whole. Against AP- or AP2+ you are better off defensively and dramatically more punchy.


AoC was AP reduction so all weapons with AP got better vs marines. I was 2+ in cover vs D1 and AP2 or AP3 if it was Scarabs.

This change means marines take 100% more wounds against AP1 while in cover and 50% more when not in cover. That's a remarkable increase.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/06 15:01:40


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slipspace wrote:
I agree. As usual, the point is being missed in favour of picking apart the specifics of the list rather than the general point it illustrates. I don't know exactly what a top-tier SM list will look like but I strongly suspect there's at least one out there now and it'll be very heavily leveraging the points drops and free wargear. I suspect it's most likely to be Iron Hands thanks to the Doctrine change. I think GW's continued attempts to make SM vehicles good will probably not pan out as all the free stuff and points drops on infantry seem like much better value than those on the vehicles.


I think the points on some vehicles is getting there - but the problem is there's no synergy, so basic infantry seem better.

I think my pedantry is particularly inspired because I think the list has legs. Its possibly not the optimal Marine build - but we know enough of 40k to say quantity has a quality all its own. If something is too cheap, take more of it and you'll do okay. Which is basically what this list does.

The equivalent blinged out Marine list before these points changes would be without 3 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, the big unit of terminators and a unit of bikes and Sternguard. (i.e down 888~ points). Would that be easy to beat? Sure - because there isn't much on the table. But now we are bringing 8 more squads - all equally blinged out. That's a massive boost in damage output, resilience and board control - all important elements for winning a game.

For Daed - if stuff is around 70% of the cost (2000/2883), then doing 50% more damage to it gives you 105% damage. But the Marine unit is also effectively doing 44%~ more damage for its points.
Your point about cover is reasonable, but I'm not convinced the issue was chucking AP-1 into 2+ save Marines.

Can't really agree with your point about bowling ball maths. Infantry having an effective range of 30" - and being able to walk through ruins then fire (no penalty with Iron Hands, reroll 1s all game if you stay in Devestator, which you may do depending on trade offs), is generally speaking the whole table in modern 40k. The terrain is almost never there to set up some model so it can stay 45" away in a corner and shoot all over the board.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/06 15:16:47


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Truly the balance is absurd when i can cut 30+% of unit cost for upgrades and by extention frontload that all in a list and achive basically not much...

What a time to be alive.

Isn't it astonishing how many different colors of flames you start getting once a dumpster fire of this size really gets to burning?



No throwing household rubbish on the fire would've been nice...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
 
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