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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Codex Thousand Sons, p.49 wrote:Each time the bearer is selected to fight, instead of fighting, you can select one enemy INFANTRY model with a Leadership characteristic of 9 or less that is within Engagement Range of it. If you do, the selected enemy model immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit: until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes. If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes.


We were discussing this in the pub last night. Can I use this against a single-model unit, such as a Character to make him commit sudoku?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I don't think so-the model is treated as part of your army while making those attacks, so it wouldn't be able to attack itself.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Valkyrie wrote:
Codex Thousand Sons, p.49 wrote:Each time the bearer is selected to fight, instead of fighting, you can select one enemy INFANTRY model with a Leadership characteristic of 9 or less that is within Engagement Range of it. If you do, the selected enemy model immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit: until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes. If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes.


We were discussing this in the pub last night. Can I use this against a single-model unit, such as a Character to make him commit sudoku?


That model has no eligible targets to make attacks against, as no enemy model is in attack range while it is considered part of your army 'for all intents and purposes'.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Tsagualsa wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Codex Thousand Sons, p.49 wrote:Each time the bearer is selected to fight, instead of fighting, you can select one enemy INFANTRY model with a Leadership characteristic of 9 or less that is within Engagement Range of it. If you do, the selected enemy model immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit: until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes. If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes.


We were discussing this in the pub last night. Can I use this against a single-model unit, such as a Character to make him commit sudoku?


That model has no eligible targets to make attacks against, as no enemy model is in attack range while it is considered part of your army 'for all intents and purposes'.


The rule doesnt mention that the enemy model has to pick a target for its attack. The rule says it immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit, skipping the step where a unit selects a target, the target is preselected. A one model unit can attack its own unit.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



Dudley, UK

 Valkyrie wrote:
Codex Thousand Sons, p.49 wrote:Each time the bearer is selected to fight, instead of fighting, you can select one enemy INFANTRY model with a Leadership characteristic of 9 or less that is within Engagement Range of it. If you do, the selected enemy model immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit: until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes. If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes.


We were discussing this in the pub last night. Can I use this against a single-model unit, such as a Character to make him commit sudoku?


I see no problem with making him take a time-out from the fight phase to complete a number puzzle, no.
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 p5freak wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Codex Thousand Sons, p.49 wrote:Each time the bearer is selected to fight, instead of fighting, you can select one enemy INFANTRY model with a Leadership characteristic of 9 or less that is within Engagement Range of it. If you do, the selected enemy model immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit: until it has resolved these attacks it is treated as being a model from your army for all rules purposes. If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit, the bearer counts as having destroyed that unit for all rules purposes.


We were discussing this in the pub last night. Can I use this against a single-model unit, such as a Character to make him commit sudoku?


That model has no eligible targets to make attacks against, as no enemy model is in attack range while it is considered part of your army 'for all intents and purposes'.


The rule doesnt mention that the enemy model has to pick a target for its attack. The rule says it immediately makes close combat attacks against its own unit, skipping the step where a unit selects a target, the target is preselected. A one model unit can attack its own unit.


But going by rules as written 'Making close combat attacks' is a whole sequence of steps in itself, which includes announcing targets and picking weapons for the attacks. Going by that, this sequence fails in the 'Pick targets' step, as there are none to pick.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Ignore p5. He’s ignoring the fact you don’t make attacks against your own army, and this model is treated as being part of your army. His effort falls at the first hurdle. Not the first time the Core Rules have eluded him.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Tsagualsa wrote:

But going by rules as written 'Making close combat attacks' is a whole sequence of steps in itself, which includes announcing targets and picking weapons for the attacks. Going by that, this sequence fails in the 'Pick targets' step, as there are none to pick.


The mirror rules are more specific than the general ones of the fight phase, overriding them. The target is preselected by the mirror, the model making attacks is preselected by the mirror. Weapons need to be chosen, and then attacks are rolled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ignore p5. He’s ignoring the fact you don’t make attacks against your own army, and this model is treated as being part of your army. His effort falls at the first hurdle. Not the first time the Core Rules have eluded him.


Ignore Johnny. He has no clue that specific rules override general rules. By your interpretation this mirror doesnt work at all, and no one has noticed, yet ?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/16 11:29:05


 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 p5freak wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:

But going by rules as written 'Making close combat attacks' is a whole sequence of steps in itself, which includes announcing targets and picking weapons for the attacks. Going by that, this sequence fails in the 'Pick targets' step, as there are none to pick.


The mirror rules are more specific than the general ones of the fight phase, overriding them. The target is preselected by the mirror, the model making attacks is preselected by the mirror. Weapons need to be chosen, and then attacks are rolled.



Yes, the target is preselected, but the targeted enemy model is not considered part of that target until it has resolved the attacks. Effectively the enemy unit is 'empty' and contains no models until the end of this special sequences, so even if you stand on the point that the attack is made against the unit, it fails once because there are no enemy models in engagement range and thus targeting the 'empty' unit is not possible, and fails again a couple of steps later when you have to allocate damage to models in the unit, as there are none until the end of the sequence.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:

But going by rules as written 'Making close combat attacks' is a whole sequence of steps in itself, which includes announcing targets and picking weapons for the attacks. Going by that, this sequence fails in the 'Pick targets' step, as there are none to pick.


The mirror rules are more specific than the general ones of the fight phase, overriding them. The target is preselected by the mirror, the model making attacks is preselected by the mirror. Weapons need to be chosen, and then attacks are rolled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ignore p5. He’s ignoring the fact you don’t make attacks against your own army, and this model is treated as being part of your army. His effort falls at the first hurdle. Not the first time the Core Rules have eluded him.


Ignore Johnny. He has no clue that specific rules override general rules. By your interpretation this mirror doesnt work at all, and no one has noticed, yet ?

I'd be interested in your justification for why the Mirror doesn't work at all. Seems like it does given the information above.

The reason you're wrong is because the Mirror specifically says the affected model is part of your army. It therefore cannot allocate attacks to itself. Your concept of the target being "preselected" isn't a rules concept and it doesn't absolve the player of having to follow the basic rules for attacking, within the restrictions laid down by the Relic (and only those restrictions).
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

He’s just being salty now with the mirror-format post.

The thingy works fine if the model isn’t a single-model unit, p5. If it is, you’ve had it explained why it doesn’t work.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I'm not so sure p5freak is wrong.

If you strictly follow the rules for Close Combat and making attacks, the Mirror model can easily be out of Engagement Range of other models in its own unit. Does not make attacks in that case?

And while I am loathe to use flavor text in a rules discussion (emphasis added):
This strangely named dagger is made of the purest reflective glass, its dazzling light shining into the minds of the foe. One afflicted by its brilliance becomes a helpless marionette as their mind convulses and they strike against themselves with their own weapons, or lash out at their allies as enemy fighters watch on in confusion and horror.
So the rules may be FUBAR (not an uncommon occurrence in GW rules), the intent is clear.

Also, it would be impossible for a model to destroy it's own unit if it can not allocate attacks to itself, and yet the rules for the relic have a specific rules instruction should that happen.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:

Also, it would be impossible for a model to destroy it's own unit if it can not allocate attacks to itself, and yet the rules for the relic have a specific rules instruction should that happen.
It wouldn't because of the context. When they say " If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit," in context, they mean the rest of the unit, since friendly models can never attack them selves unless something specifically says they can. Sorthis' Mirror does not specify that they can attack themselves, so they simply can't.

The default rules say you cant attack yourself or your unit. Sorthis' Mirror over-rides the one default that you can not attack your own unit (As it makes them act as enemy models)

Sorthis' Mirror does not over-ride the part about attacking yourself because, while the rest of their unit acts as enemy models, the model picked is still friendly with itself.

Anyone saying otherwise would need a citation stating otherwise.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
When they say " If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit," in context, they mean the rest of the unit, since friendly models can never attack them selves unless something specifically says they can. Sorthis' Mirror does not specify that they can attack themselves, so they simply can't.


A unit is only killed when every model in the unit is destroyed. Thats impossible if the model cannot attack itself. If a friendly model couldnt attack itself it wouldnt be able to destroy its own unit, because it would be last model in the unit. But its possible that a model can destroy its own unit, thats what the mirror rules says. So a model must be able to attack itself, otherwise the mirror would not work at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/21 22:56:48


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
When they say " If, as a result of these attacks, the enemy model destroys its own unit," in context, they mean the rest of the unit, since friendly models can never attack them selves unless something specifically says they can. Sorthis' Mirror does not specify that they can attack themselves, so they simply can't.


A unit is only killed when every model in the unit is destroyed.Thats impossible if the model cannot attack itself. If a friendly model couldnt attack itself it wouldnt be able to destroy its own unit, because it would be last model in the unit.

We all know this. The rules, as usual, have something incorrect. This is not/should not be shocking to anyone.

But its possible that a model can destroy its own unit, thats what the mirror rules says. So a model must be able to attack itself, otherwise the mirror would not work at all.
The mirror rule assumes that "its possible that a model can destroy its own unit" but the mirror rules lack any way for this to actually happen, so the unit actually can not kill itself.

The rules, as usual, have something incorrect. This is not/should not be shocking to anyone.


Edit: Now that I look further, the selected model still cant make attacks against himself, but when morale comes around the unit might need to make a test and might be destroyed that way?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/22 06:11:31


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Morale is a way where the unit could be destroyed, but its not the only one.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Morale is a way where the unit could be destroyed, but its not the only one.
A model attacking a friendly model is never a way the unit could be destroyed. (Unless a rule specifically allows it, but Sorthis' Mirror does not specifically allow it). So in the case of Sorthis' Mirror, Morale is really the only way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/22 09:03:25


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Morale is a way where the unit could be destroyed, but its not the only one.
A model attacking a friendly model is never a way the unit could be destroyed. (Unless a rule specifically allows it, but Sorthis' Mirror does not specifically allow it). So in the case of Sorthis' Mirror, Morale is really the only way.


There are a couple of other ways, blowing yourself up with an overcharged plasma pistol comes to mind. You could also suffer some sort of effect that deals out mortal wounds due to a stratagem, skill or army special rule that effects e.g. all units in a certain range or something like that.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Tsagualsa wrote:
There are a couple of other ways, blowing yourself up with an overcharged plasma pistol comes to mind. You could also suffer some sort of effect that deals out mortal wounds due to a stratagem, skill or army special rule that effects e.g. all units in a certain range or something like that.
And none of those have anything to do with the situation at hand I.E. "in the case of Sorthis' Mirror", so why even bring up stuff that is out of context, and does not cover the situation at all?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

It’s fairly obvious the rule means “if model kills rest of its unit, then it dies too”. Plain English covers it just fine. It in no way means “aha this is back-door permission for a model to attack itself”. Just no. Not supported at all. That’s a reading so torturous that it hurt its back reaching.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/22 09:44:16


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Morale is a way where the unit could be destroyed, but its not the only one.
A model attacking a friendly model is never a way the unit could be destroyed. (Unless a rule specifically allows it, but Sorthis' Mirror does not specifically allow it). So in the case of Sorthis' Mirror, Morale is really the only way.


The mirror rule gives permission to a model to attack its own unit. That's permission to attack itself. This is backed up by fluff, which is better than some people saying no because I say so.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I think we have a strange case of a model being both part of a unit of an enemy army and a model of your army at the same time.

I have also just reviewed the rules for the Making Attacks and noted a significant lack of the term enemy unit or enemy model in those rules. While the targeting rules for both Ranged and Close Combat prevent you from choosing friendly units as the target of your attacks, there is no rule preventing wounds from being allocated to friendly models should you be able to attack their unit.

Since Sorthis' Mirror never removes the attacking model from its own unit, even as it counts as a model of the Mirror's army, it may allocate attacks to itself. In fact, it must allocate attacks to itself first if it already has lost wounds or may do so if no model in the unit has lost wounds.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Morale is a way where the unit could be destroyed, but its not the only one.
A model attacking a friendly model is never a way the unit could be destroyed. (Unless a rule specifically allows it, but Sorthis' Mirror does not specifically allow it). So in the case of Sorthis' Mirror, Morale is really the only way.


The mirror rule gives permission to a model to attack its own unit. That's permission to attack itself. This is backed up by fluff, which is better than some people saying no because I say so.
False, there is nothing that overrides the rule about a model attacking itself in the Sorthis' Mirror rules.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

What rule about a model attacking itself do you speak of?
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
What rule about a model attacking itself do you speak of?
The rules about not being able to attack friendly units.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

There is no rule against making attacks against friendly units. Nowhere in the Making Attacks rules are units or models referred to as friendly or enemy. They are always referred to as model making the attack, target or target unit.

When allocating attacks in the Shooting phase, you must select enemy units.
When allocating attacks in the Fight phase, you must select enemy units.

However, when resolving attacks a model makes because of Sorthis' Mirror, they are directed to make attacks against their own unit. They are part of their own unit. While the rules for Sorthis' Mirror do state the model is part of your army, that doesn't change the fact they are part of their own unit. Therefore those attacks can be made against themselves.

This is open and shut rules a written. I challenge you to find a global rule stating otherwise.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc






Southern New Hampshire

 alextroy wrote:
There is no rule against making attacks against friendly units. Nowhere in the Making Attacks rules are units or models referred to as friendly or enemy. They are always referred to as model making the attack, target or target unit.

When allocating attacks in the Shooting phase, you must select enemy units.
When allocating attacks in the Fight phase, you must select enemy units.

However, when resolving attacks a model makes because of Sorthis' Mirror, they are directed to make attacks against their own unit. They are part of their own unit. While the rules for Sorthis' Mirror do state the model is part of your army, that doesn't change the fact they are part of their own unit. Therefore those attacks can be made against themselves.

This is open and shut rules a written. I challenge you to find a global rule stating otherwise.


I just went looking through the books myself, and I have to agree with this assessment. To answer the original question, I would then agree that the mirror could be used against a single model, such as a character.

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
There is no rule against making attacks against friendly units. Nowhere in the Making Attacks rules are units or models referred to as friendly or enemy. They are always referred to as model making the attack, target or target unit.

When allocating attacks in the Shooting phase, you must select enemy units.
When allocating attacks in the Fight phase, you must select enemy units.

However, when resolving attacks a model makes because of Sorthis' Mirror, they are directed to make attacks against their own unit. They are part of their own unit. While the rules for Sorthis' Mirror do state the model is part of your army, that doesn't change the fact they are part of their own unit. Therefore those attacks can be made against themselves.

This is open and shut rules a written. I challenge you to find a global rule stating otherwise.
Find something that allows making attacks against a friendly unit.

There is an FAQ that disallows it too, (Not that it is needed as nothing says you can attack friendly units) unless that FAQ has been ninja removed.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
Find something that allows making attacks against a friendly unit.

Sorthis' Mirror
ducks

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/23 12:53:26


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
Find something that allows making attacks against a friendly unit.


Its not a friendly unit. Its still an enemy unit, only the model is considered to be a friendly model, according to the sorthis mirror rule. We have a friendly model in an enemy unit, attacking its own unit.
   
 
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