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Made in hk
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






Hopefully an interesting topic. The Spartan is obviously a great centrepiece model, and like nearly everyone I have one from the boxed set. Watching online battle reports suggests that the Spartan is quite effective; more often than not it seems to do its job absorbing anti-tank fire and delivering its payload. But it does seem to be vulnerable to concentrated fire, and losing a Spartan leaves a big hole. I was planning on taking one, loaded with the usual big squad of Cataphracti, but I’m now wondering if it’s better to take a couple of Land Raiders with smaller units on board (in an Ultramarines army). I kind of prefer the LR model, and Ultras seem to benefit from taking more units. Any thoughts on this?

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett RIP 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







Everything has its place, but the Spartan pays a looot of extra points for passenger space, a bit more hull points and only a smidgen more firepower, a lot of which is anti-synergistic with its transport role to boot. And when you're at 350 (plus the squad inside) you might as well do the +50 for AV15 and you're probably pushing 1000 pts in one basket. And while you maaaybe are getting your 1000 points' worth of resilience, are you ever getting your 1000 points' worth of killyness?

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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






For Ultras the Spartan can still be worth it but if you want to play to the army strength then multiple units might be the way to go.
   
Made in au
Fixture of Dakka





Melbourne

Spartans are the choice if you're the sort of person who favours big deathstar units. It's got the means to get you where you need to go and is a fearsome warmachine in it's own right. As blackfang says though, you're looking around 1k points once you've tooled it up and thrown a unit inside. It's gonna cop a lot of heat during your opponents turn.

Multiple landraiders, while still expensive, work better for threat saturation. If you've got say, 3 land raiders with squads inside, that's means your opponent has to split his fire up between more targets and has to chose which one takes priority for killing, which in turn gives you more chance of getting units up in his face. Where as in a Spartan, you've got all your eggs in one basket so to speak (an extremely well armoured basket though).

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




not tried: warning! theory ahead!

well hypothesis really

well not even that really

Spartan: go Pride of the Legion and bring three or more with units...


biggest problem I have with the thing is it still stuffers from the "Land Raider" issue of now having a clue what it wants to be.. a well armoured transport? a heavy any tank gunnery unit? a giant points sink?

they look lovely, I have two (unbuilt) here, I love the classing land raider look as well. But not entirely sure what the point of them is.

I get that terminators, especially larger tooled up units or the specialist ones need a 'thing' to deliver them and can't generally deep strike in 30k so a honking armoured box that can fire a few guns as it piles forwards is decent.

but as noted is probably about 1k points with the cargo.. cargo that will likely make a mess or one, maybe two enemy units..

now I do not buy into "will this unit kill its value of enemy?" as a good measure, I go for "will this help me win the game, and for a bonus look good doing it?" - you can generally win a decent game without worrying too much on killing stuff

I've got 20 (unbuilt) terminators, my Thousand Sons have 10x Tartaros, and to be honest they always feel like a waste of points, decent for drawing fire, sometimes (I got them into combat once, and my regular opponent is scared of them now - they got lucky)..

probably varies by legion but I suspect the classic Land Raider, with a smaller, cheaper cargo inside, in multiple (2-3) will probably have more of an effect - by having more of an army to advance with it - roll up at infantry speed, with screening tacticals so no irritating enemies with melta bombs etc get too close. then when the big uns get out you have the little uns dotted about - and get the most value from the guns as you close.

trouble is the models are far too nice not to use


Automatically Appended Next Post:
of course the flip side is unless you have Terminators in troop slots you are either burning elite or heavy slots

as a flip flip side, three spartans with cargo and you probably don't have enough points for much else so lack of slots stops mattering

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/28 21:34:51


 
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





I do use Spartans a fair bit. Usually to transport either termies or a big 20 tac squad with bayonets and a character. Works well enough when you take 2 to saturate targets.

If you got a small shooting unit like a special unit squad or some legion specific one then perhaps the phobos could be a better choice. Make use of it's scout/infiltrate to get melta closer as an example.

Essentially to my mind Spartan as an assault transport, phobos as a shooty transport. If there was a cheaper assault vehicle I'd grab that, spamming the flyer transport as an example.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Ultramarine Tactical Marine




Belfast

I always go for "rule of cool" build the models i like the look of and don't play often so is the spartan a better model as its a new mould compared to the older model?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Go for the Spartan. Why? You are playing 30K and not 40K. So large blobs of infantry should be the norm. Otherwise you should have saved your bucks and kept playing 40K.
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







Cool gatekeeping bro.

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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 lord_blackfang wrote:
Cool gatekeeping bro.


He does kinda have a point. Moral and the 25% rule of losses for the checks reigns in msu a bit.

That said.

Personally i run a spartan and two proteusi, if i run them, because a terminator sledgehammer is a sledgehammer. The spartan will still draw a lot of fire though, because in it are 10 terminators + HQ.


On average though, i think people are better off with multiple Landraiders simply because it spreads the points out more and fields more AV14.

Also far more units can get one as an attached transport.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/31 08:29:31


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I find it amazing to once again have a feature not really seen since the earlier editions

morale rules that don't see the bulk of the in game factions have an easy inbuilt way to ignore it

and yes it does hit MSU hard, which personally I think is good, but not quite as good as the morale bit of the rulebook actually being worth reading for a change

   
Made in hk
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






Thanks for the responses.

I think Strg Alt's point about taking a Spartan simply because it's WH30k is a good one. I don't think the point about large infantry blobs is really relevant; there are plenty of elite Heresy units that are fielded in smaller units, and running 20-strong squads is just one way of playing.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett RIP 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Snord wrote:
Thanks for the responses.

I think Strg Alt's point about taking a Spartan simply because it's WH30k is a good one. I don't think the point about large infantry blobs is really relevant; there are plenty of elite Heresy units that are fielded in smaller units, and running 20-strong squads is just one way of playing.


all comes down to what do you want from the game really, personally the best way to run an army is to have the option to go massive infantry blob heavy, or to go pure elite - helps avoid issues with people list tailoring, intentionally or otherwise, against one or the other if thats all you have for one thing - also makes more narrative type games a lot easier when you have plenty of options

and those elite units generally look amazing
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





leopard wrote:
I find it amazing to once again have a feature not really seen since the earlier editions

morale rules that don't see the bulk of the in game factions have an easy inbuilt way to ignore it

and yes it does hit MSU hard, which personally I think is good, but not quite as good as the morale bit of the rulebook actually being worth reading for a change



As someone building an count as SA army (not because there aren't ways like LD 10 marshalls vox broadcasting, but rather because a squad of nemisis bolter recons will take him out of the pic.)... morale and AP spite me pretty hard.. Far harder than any SM list or mechanicum list i could come up with.

And i won't lie, especially Ap 4 being prevalent and BC's beeing nerfed is annoying. (atleast breaching on 5+ and 5" template would be nice.)

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




does seem to have been a lot of what was AP2 and AP3 shifted to be AP4 so it just misses 'normal' marines

mind you ran IG, Orcs & Nids in 40k for a while and sort of got used to not having to read the bit of the book that covered armour saves

its something I prefer from the current 40k, AP being a save modifier, though they have also handed it out like candy there causing other issues
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





leopard wrote:
does seem to have been a lot of what was AP2 and AP3 shifted to be AP4 so it just misses 'normal' marines

mind you ran IG, Orcs & Nids in 40k for a while and sort of got used to not having to read the bit of the book that covered armour saves

its something I prefer from the current 40k, AP being a save modifier, though they have also handed it out like candy there causing other issues


Oh i am absolutly acclimatised to having no armor. Afterall my main army had units that just had no value

That said, i prefer the binary system if it has enough care over the 40k system in current use.
What is more an issue for SA is the fact that you have pretty much an overly hard time to deal with PA due to BC's which were your main form of anti PA being nerfed to oblivion.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







I also prefer the AP system and I think enough nuance has been added versus 2+ and 3+ saves with the introduction of Breaching/Rending values but perhaps non-marines armies could do with a little less AP4 floating around.

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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 lord_blackfang wrote:
I also prefer the AP system and I think enough nuance has been added versus 2+ and 3+ saves with the introduction of Breaching/Rending values but perhaps non-marines armies could do with a little less AP4 floating around.


honestly there's nothing wrong with the ammount of AP4 imo, afterall i don't expect SA to have better chances at survival as soon as AC and Kraken boltguns open up, it's moreso that the arsenal for SA has basically no fitting tool to deal with massed PA bodies, mostly because the core tool you had, being a leman russ with BC and heavy artillery, has had it's mainguns basically for all intents removed from the pile of valid choices, leading to a really limited ammount of options to field that can deal with massed PA.

I don't wish HH 1 phosphex spam back, i don't think that was enjoyable, but a medusa having only ap 2 on 5+ is a tough sell. A BC not beeing a 5" template and having atleast breaching aswell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/31 14:49:49


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







Yea I opened up Liber Imperium almost certain the battle cannon would have Breaching but alas

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Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spartans were super popular in HH 1 and remain very popular in HH 2.

They're just so freakin' tough, have a ton of transport space, and critically count as an 'assault vehicle', so things can charge when they disembark out of it.

There are a handful of other assault vehicles, but they're not as tough, don't have the same transport space, or are still resin model kits.

Land Raiders aren't bad, but 30k lends itself to bigger deathball squads that can hurt whatever they assault.
   
Made in hk
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






I think I am going to build my Spartan as a SoH vehicle, carrying the Terminators and a Cataphractii Praetor (not sure how to arm him yet though). My Ultras will probably take 2 Land Raiders, as that army will be built around taking more units.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett RIP 
   
Made in us
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge




In HH 1.0 the Spartans delivered a large unit with either a Praetor or Primarch. It can take a hit. I haven't used one in 2.0 yet.

[/sarcasm] 
   
Made in gb
Confident Marauder Chieftain





North Wales, UK

Posting from experience, A spartan with a unit of red butchers and a world eaters praetor got thier points back and then some in a recent game against my mechanicus. Admitedly the dice gods were not in my favour. The Castellax with darkfire were pinned because the arch magos rolled box cars on his cyberthurgy test, and the thanatar calix with spartan killing giant laser gun rolled snake eyes on the armour penetration rolls. The game was over before i got my thirs turn.
   
Made in au
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





Just worth noting from your post, castellax can't be pinned, your archmagos would have just suffered the cybertheurgic feedback.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I think it's still good enough to be taken in armies that focus on CQC or as a ride for a killy unit.
Obviously, it can get destroyed with a single shot from a good AT weapon but that's kind of just how things are. My latest game saw my Spartan get popped turn one whereas a friend had a game where theirs racked up kill after kill against enemy vehicles while only getting immobilised in return.
   
Made in hk
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






 Gert wrote:
I think it's still good enough to be taken in armies that focus on CQC or as a ride for a killy unit.
Obviously, it can get destroyed with a single shot from a good AT weapon but that's kind of just how things are. My latest game saw my Spartan get popped turn one whereas a friend had a game where theirs racked up kill after kill against enemy vehicles while only getting immobilised in return.


That’s how it was fielding a Land Raider in earlier editions of WH40k. I generally had success with them, even when the meta was supposedly against them. Looks as though my Sons of Horus are getting a Spartan, which means beefing up the Caraphractii squad that’s going to ride in it.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett RIP 
   
Made in gb
Confident Marauder Chieftain





North Wales, UK

Bobug wrote:
Just worth noting from your post, castellax can't be pinned, your archmagos would have just suffered the cybertheurgic feedback.


I did not realise this, it was my first game with the Mechanicus and the rules within rules within rules was throwing us
Cheers!
   
Made in au
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





Don't blame you! The first few games with mech are rough since so much has changed! Me and my mate played our first game as a mech Vs mech so there was a lot "erm what does this do.....ohhh we played that wrong...oh..."
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I advise using a proteus just because its. Really good lascannon platform and a bit cheap for what you get. Only bring the spartan if you really need the extra space. Proteus is always better unless you are rocking a deathball.
   
 
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