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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





This topic may sound weird for people who started playing 40K during 3rd or later. In essence Thunder Hammers/Lightning Claws/Chain Fists were portrayed in 2nd as Terminator weapons and were the only models depicted who actually wielded them although according to the rules SM in Power Armour could use them as well. So how do you feel about this? Should there be exclusive weapons for Terminator Armour or is the "Anything Goes" sentiment like we have it now a much more preferred method?
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Chainfists I think still are TDA only?

I like the concept that the heavy armor lets the wearer use heavier, more cumbersome weapons. But with the over the top heroics kicking around these days, I’m fine with them being used by everyone. Rule of Cool goes a long way.

   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





I definitely prefer the "anything goes " variant to the "no, your chars can't carry jump packs because we didn't make a Model for that" variant.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 Nevelon wrote:
Chainfists I think still are TDA only?
They were until the Navy Breachers got them: (which is OT because we're talking about Power Armour...)

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/30 16:37:23


 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Castraferrum and Contemptor dreadnoughts can take chainfists too.

I'm in the middle. I like that a cyclone missile launcher is a Terminator-only weapon, for example, but I'm fine with storm bolters being available in the general armoury. Come to think of it, I'd like storm bolters to be returned to the Imperial Guard armory...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/30 16:38:52


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I think there should be some advantage to wielding the heavier weapons in terminator armour. But I'm ok with them being used elsewhere.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

The Black Adder wrote:
I think there should be some advantage to wielding the heavier weapons in terminator armour. But I'm ok with them being used elsewhere.
There are fluff reasons - one of the Guard novels says their power fists only have enough batteries for 3 hits.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I definitely prefer the "anything goes " variant to the "no, your chars can't carry jump packs because we didn't make a Model for that" variant.


I would say its more about setting a particular set of roles for different armour types, rather than "we don't make a model".

If a certain type or class of weapon is specifically restricted to terminators, then as long as its consistently restricted to terminators, then that's ok to me. Arbitrarily restricting a weapon that is available to some power armour troop types, but not to others is a bit harder to justify.


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think when everybody can take Terminator weapons than the appeal of the unit suffers.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







 Strg Alt wrote:
I think when everybody can take Terminator weapons than the appeal of the unit suffers.


I agree with that. Terminators suffer in many ways anyway, so letting everyone play with their toys just means they don't get taken.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Couple this with the fact of SM in Power Armour taking jump packs (which Terminators can´t) and your threat range has just become ridiculous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/30 17:03:57


 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




In the older editions didn't TDA also enhance stats over PA? I think that was the reason why some weapons were for TDA only. Nowadays everyone is more aware of nutrition so anyone can use, practically, any weapon they can get their hands on (around).
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
In the older editions didn't TDA also enhance stats over PA? I think that was the reason why some weapons were for TDA only. Nowadays everyone is more aware of nutrition so anyone can use, practically, any weapon they can get their hands on (around).


Imperial TDA in 2nd granted the following:

1. 3+ save on 2D6.
2. Teleport option.
3. Access to Terminator weapons.
4. Targeter for ranged weapons.
5. Various resistances to specific status effects.


Chaos TDA in 2nd granted the following:

1. 3+ save on 2D6.
2. Access to outdated Terminator weapons.
3. Various resistances to specific status effects.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






As someone who started playing in 2nd edition it still feels weird to me that models in Power Armor can take Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws, and I strongly prefer the OG Powerfist for my various Power Armored characters for the sake of tradition.

As for gameplay on Terminators, the Terminator Armor should be ignoring the -1 to hit when using the "heavy" CC weapons. Also Chainfists should be hitting harder than they do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/30 21:10:46


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Strg Alt wrote:
I think when everybody can take Terminator weapons than the appeal of the unit suffers.


Agreed.

Honestly, I think far too many of the Terminator's toys have been given away.

For example, it used to be that good saves and invulnerable saves were extremely hard to come by. Even a 4++ on a character used to be a one-per-army artefact. Now it's just standard-issue wargear. As, in many cases, is a 2+ save - even if the character in question has a Bike or a Jump Pack. And this is before we even get into the actual relics.

IMO Terminator armour really lost its sheen when characters were allowed to have mobility items and still keep their excellent armour and invulnerable saves (not to mention the melee weapons discussed here).

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 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in cn
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Well, with the Thunderhammer, what I would prefer is for marines outside of the TDA to have to duel-wield it (though Vanguards or was it Sternguards clearly shows otherwise). A hammer is a hammer, provided they have their own power source instead of having to be attached to the suit, they should be able to be wielded by anyone strong enough to lift it.

Things like Lightning Claws, Powerfists, Chainfists are a little bit more special though. The marine fist weapons though are clearly a part of a TDA since the claws and chainfists uses the fist as bases. Seeing them "worn" by non Terminator armours look odd to me. They can certainly say these are custom-made by artificers using parts from damaged TDA suits. For some I think it's thematic like for the Raven Guards, so looking cool is a good part in my being ok with it.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




As another player from 2nd - Yeah... Termy only weapons on non Termy's is weird. I suppose I would prefer that they be restricted back to TDA only to make the premier/premium unit stay premier/premium.

I also think that the Genie is out of the bottle and that GW has sold too many Vanguard Veteran squads to make a change like that.


On a side note - I always wanted to make a custom chapter where all the core troops had jump packs, Termy's and Dreads excepted, but had no access to armored vehicles beside a basic transport.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tome_Keeper wrote:
As another player from 2nd - Yeah... Termy only weapons on non Termy's is weird. I suppose I would prefer that they be restricted back to TDA only to make the premier/premium unit stay premier/premium.

I also think that the Genie is out of the bottle and that GW has sold too many Vanguard Veteran squads to make a change like that.


On a side note - I always wanted to make a custom chapter where all the core troops had jump packs, Termy's and Dreads excepted, but had no access to armored vehicles beside a basic transport.


I have five metal Vanguard models already painted and still five more in plastic to put together. The new kit comes along with all kinds of close combat weapons and out of respect to the Terminators I won´t choose Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tome_Keeper wrote:
As another player from 2nd - Yeah... Termy only weapons on non Termy's is weird. I suppose I would prefer that they be restricted back to TDA only to make the premier/premium unit stay premier/premium.


Same. If everything can have everything, the fluff is meaningless and all that matters is what gets the most pluses.

I also think that the Genie is out of the bottle and that GW has sold too many Vanguard Veteran squads to make a change like that.


GW is famous for reversing itself repeatedly. Take nothing for granted.


On a side note - I always wanted to make a custom chapter where all the core troops had jump packs, Termy's and Dreads excepted, but had no access to armored vehicles beside a basic transport.


Before the stupid org charts became mandatory, one could play an all-jump pack army. Indeed, IIRC, a codex chapter had a reserve company of assault marines, so one could just claim to be using that unit.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Before the stupid org charts became mandatory, one could play an all-jump pack army. Indeed, IIRC, a codex chapter had a reserve company of assault marines, so one could just claim to be using that unit.

Assault Marines and Bikers should be troop options to be fair.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 lcmiracle wrote:


Things like Lightning Claws, Powerfists, Chainfists are a little bit more special though.


Power Fists were available to non-Terminators in Second. It was even fairly popular on Devastator Veteran Sergeants - that were Veteran to prevent the Scooby Doo Assassin Effect, and Fisty to defend the HW dudes. And Calgar had his two fist look in power armor before he had it in Terminator Armor, before he had it in Gravis Armor.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






EviscerationPlague wrote:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Before the stupid org charts became mandatory, one could play an all-jump pack army. Indeed, IIRC, a codex chapter had a reserve company of assault marines, so one could just claim to be using that unit.

Assault Marines and Bikers should be troop options to be fair.
Assault Marines and Bikers are the quintessestial Fast Attack units.

The Rule Of Three is more the enemy here than anything else.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Breton wrote:
 lcmiracle wrote:


Things like Lightning Claws, Powerfists, Chainfists are a little bit more special though.


Power Fists were available to non-Terminators in Second. It was even fairly popular on Devastator Veteran Sergeants - that were Veteran to prevent the Scooby Doo Assassin Effect, and Fisty to defend the HW dudes. And Calgar had his two fist look in power armor before he had it in Terminator Armor, before he had it in Gravis Armor.


Power Fists on non-terminators has been a thing since the dawn of RT.
The original box of plastic beanie marines had pfs on the sprues.
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





I think there is a distinction in Termis having 'Truly a terminator weapon' and Termis being the only unit to meaningfully bring large quantities of a specific weapon.

AKA older ed it was very rare if not outright impossible to bring whole entire units of power fist equiv weapons and normally one unit had access to that, termis and PK nobs come to mind.

But the only truly termi exclusive weapon I can think of for the longest time was the cyclone missile launcher, all other options other models or units had access to in some degree or capacity, without hitting that possible count of PF/Chainfist/Thunderhammer
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I think there is a distinction in Termis having 'Truly a terminator weapon' and Termis being the only unit to meaningfully bring large quantities of a specific weapon.

AKA older ed it was very rare if not outright impossible to bring whole entire units of power fist equiv weapons and normally one unit had access to that, termis and PK nobs come to mind.

But the only truly termi exclusive weapon I can think of for the longest time was the cyclone missile launcher, all other options other models or units had access to in some degree or capacity, without hitting that possible count of PF/Chainfist/Thunderhammer

Terminators remain the only infantry to access assault cannons and chainfists, although both appear on vehicles. Likewise for reaper autocannons.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





 Haighus wrote:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I think there is a distinction in Termis having 'Truly a terminator weapon' and Termis being the only unit to meaningfully bring large quantities of a specific weapon.

AKA older ed it was very rare if not outright impossible to bring whole entire units of power fist equiv weapons and normally one unit had access to that, termis and PK nobs come to mind.

But the only truly termi exclusive weapon I can think of for the longest time was the cyclone missile launcher, all other options other models or units had access to in some degree or capacity, without hitting that possible count of PF/Chainfist/Thunderhammer

Terminators remain the only infantry to access assault cannons and chainfists, although both appear on vehicles. Likewise for reaper autocannons.


That is true, but doesn't that mean the Cyclone missile launcher is truly the only termi exclusive (apart from single unique weapons like Mace of absolution) to regular termi units? as the other guns ARE available on other units and potentially significant more quantities than on the termis themselves


(TL assault cannons, Defilers with multiuple reaper/helbrutes)
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Back in the day the cyclone had unique rules, but since 3rd? It’s just been a 2 shot ML, much like the typhoon launcher.

Which is why I stuck them on top of my speeders.
Spoiler:



   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
 Haighus wrote:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I think there is a distinction in Termis having 'Truly a terminator weapon' and Termis being the only unit to meaningfully bring large quantities of a specific weapon.

AKA older ed it was very rare if not outright impossible to bring whole entire units of power fist equiv weapons and normally one unit had access to that, termis and PK nobs come to mind.

But the only truly termi exclusive weapon I can think of for the longest time was the cyclone missile launcher, all other options other models or units had access to in some degree or capacity, without hitting that possible count of PF/Chainfist/Thunderhammer

Terminators remain the only infantry to access assault cannons and chainfists, although both appear on vehicles. Likewise for reaper autocannons.


That is true, but doesn't that mean the Cyclone missile launcher is truly the only termi exclusive (apart from single unique weapons like Mace of absolution) to regular termi units? as the other guns ARE available on other units and potentially significant more quantities than on the termis themselves


(TL assault cannons, Defilers with multiuple reaper/helbrutes)

I think this is fair, although the Terminator niche has always been infantry with the capability of tanks.

Edit: remembered that Contemptor dreadnoughts can get Cyclones, so even that is not unique.

Nevelon wrote:Back in the day the cyclone had unique rules, but since 3rd? It’s just been a 2 shot ML, much like the typhoon launcher.

Which is why I stuck them on top of my speeders.
Spoiler:



The main difference has been that it could be fired in addition to the stormbolter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/02 14:43:58


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






In addition to specific weapons, a major differentiating aspect of Terminators was that they could move and fire with Heavy weapons, which was a huge deal in comparison to other infantry. Another less appreciated factor was that Storm Bolters were Assault weapons, not Rapid Fire, during the 3-7th era. This meant that they could fire at full effect and then Charge into combat, which normal power armored Marines could not do.

These were significant mechanical distinctions they used to have, all of which have been eroded away.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
These were significant mechanical distinctions they used to have, all of which have been eroded away.


The terminators of 2nd ed. really stood out for their unique capabilities. Real Rapid Fire meant two sustained fire dice if they remained stationary, integral targeters on already BS 5 troops, the only infantry capable of carrying an assault cannon, the ability for a full squad to use chainfists and/or thunder hammers...they truly felt like the elite - not just of space marines, but of all the armies in the game.

I remember the abject horror which greeted the 3rd edition rules for terminators. They vanished from the battlefield. Assault marines with power swords were in every way superior and cost far less. Sales of the models cratered and in desperation GW released supplemental rules to shore them up.

I'll also add a shout-out to the heavy flamer weapon option, which was very useful when fighting Tyranids. The thing to do was have two squads, the lead one using thunder hammer/storm shield or lighting claws and the one behind them having the heavy flamer to help "clean them off" backed up by massed storm bolter fire.

That edition was so fluffy.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

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