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Made in us
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The Dark Imperium

I seem to be having troubles with the search feature tonight so forgive if this has been discussed already and pardon if this isn't the correct forum to post this.

So I've been wondering if there are cults devoted to the Mother of God? I understand the origins of the emperor are shady, but I think there is at least one belief that indicates he had a mother unless I am sorely mistaken? Should this be a possibility might there have been cults springing up surrounding her image as God-Mother, Holy Mother of the God-Emperor?

Certainly somewhere out there a Goddess cult already existed like in ancient times. Perhaps the Sisters learned of a significant one on a feral world, and sent a mission to convert them rather than purge them due to their strength and the exclusivity of their star system?

Would the outcome of this adaptation be considered tolerable? Could they be an order that believes in both the God Emperor and the Holy Mother of The God Emperor?

Though I have my doubts on the tolerance of this, perhaps for some reason they were abandoned shortly after the mission arrived, but didn't fall totally back into their old beliefs taking heart in the God-Emperor and adapting their ways to the new theology of the Imperium.


   
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NE Ohio, USA

Sure, whatever back-story works for your army.
   
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 Adeptekon wrote:
I seem to be having troubles with the search feature tonight so forgive if this has been discussed already and pardon if this isn't the correct forum to post this.

So I've been wondering if there are cults devoted to the Mother of God? I understand the origins of the emperor are shady, but I think there is at least one belief that indicates he had a mother unless I am sorely mistaken? Should this be a possibility might there have been cults springing up surrounding her image as God-Mother, Holy Mother of the God-Emperor?

Certainly somewhere out there a Goddess cult already existed like in ancient times. Perhaps the Sisters learned of a significant one on a feral world, and sent a mission to convert them rather than purge them due to their strength and the exclusivity of their star system?

Would the outcome of this adaptation be considered tolerable? Could they be an order that believes in both the God Emperor and the Holy Mother of The God Emperor?

Though I have my doubts on the tolerance of this, perhaps for some reason they were abandoned shortly after the mission arrived, but didn't fall totally back into their old beliefs taking heart in the God-Emperor and adapting their ways to the new theology of the Imperium.



Everybody had a mother.

I don't think there are many GW/Canon cults to a Virgin Mary type. GW absolutely loves to rip off historical Earth for their themes but they do so in very broad shallow strokes that are designed not to really torque anyone off.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
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The Dark Imperium

Breton wrote:


Everybody had a mother.

I don't think there are many GW/Canon cults to a Virgin Mary type. GW absolutely loves to rip off historical Earth for their themes but they do so in very broad shallow strokes that are designed not to really torque anyone off.



Except the emperor may not have if he was born of the collective conscious of shamans i.e. if that's an accurate description of the theory.

I think anyone who was indoctrinated Catholic (as was I) can see the parody of the RCC in the lore which I fully embrace as lessons on excess, absurdities and corruption. In other words I can take it in jest as satirical entertainment as a present undogmatic.



ccs wrote:Sure, whatever back-story works for your army.



Anyway not sure this is something I'm going to pursue for my homebrew per sae, just a question I had rolling around in mind while trying to get a grasp on the history of early terra and the emperor's origin and the doctrines of ecclesiarchy.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/05 13:17:08


   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Not really because unlike with Jesus and the Virgin Mary, the Emperor doesn't have any mother or father. He's the saviour who just showed up one day and united humanity.
We as readers know he's thousands of years old and had been in hiding but in universe nobody is left alive who knows that.
   
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 Adeptekon wrote:

Except the emperor may not have if he was born of the collective conscious of shamans i.e. if that's an accurate description of the theory.


No there’s no predicate to that. The same description of the Emperor being created from mass sacrifice has him subsequently born of normal parents . In the setting people who reincarnate, like the Eldar before M30, do not remember their past lives or their time existing in the warp. The Emperor had to acquire this knowledge about himself later in life. There’s no if/then about his having a mother.

Due to the way the Missionarus Galaxia works I’m positive there would be a pre existing goddess cult that gets adapted to be a mother of the Emperor.
   
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There’s also the question of how The Emperor is regarded.

As a God, it may simply not be common knowledge he was once relatively mortal. That instead he’s always been a God.

   
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The Dark Imperium

Gert wrote:Not really because unlike with Jesus and the Virgin Mary, the Emperor doesn't have any mother or father. He's the saviour who just showed up one day and united humanity.
We as readers know he's thousands of years old and had been in hiding but in universe nobody is left alive who knows that.



That's the part I somewhat struggle with. Taking consideration there's thousands of years between his arrival and the God-made man image. What would make a savior out of him verses just a really adept warlord?

Now yes I'm giving ignorance a lot of credit here, but ignorance seems to prevail in the universe for vastly long periods of time. Something has to hold it together beyond the notion of a super-alpha primate who was good at everything, but there is no heaven correct?

And I although I haven't searched very hard on this, this raises the question in regards to the crosses of the Templars. Are they just following the rule of cool? or does the cross actually have some significance relevant to his significance?



pelicaniforce wrote:No there’s no predicate to that. The same description of the Emperor being created from mass sacrifice has him subsequently born of normal parents . In the setting people who reincarnate, like the Eldar before M30, do not remember their past lives or their time existing in the warp. The Emperor had to acquire this knowledge about himself later in life. There’s no if/then about his having a mother.



Gotcha, so as a perpetual, he's misperceived as God, but both interpretations of his divinity or lack thereof end up being equal, however unreconcilable.



pelicaniforce wrote:Due to the way the Missionarus Galaxia works I’m positive there would be a pre existing goddess cult that gets adapted to be a mother of the Emperor.




Perfect, wasn't sure if the notion had already been put forth in universe or perhaps the fluff and if this was completely uncharted territory. Seems like there's some potential.



Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:There’s also the question of how The Emperor is regarded.

As a God, it may simply not be common knowledge he was once relatively mortal. That instead he’s always been a God.



Well uncommon outside the Astartes, save the Templars it seems. But as a God made man, he then becomes susceptible to having a mother (perhaps among some). It does make me wonder if the Astartes held councils on his incarnation and divinity or lack thereof.

   
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 Adeptekon wrote:
That's the part I somewhat struggle with. Taking consideration there's thousands of years between his arrival and the God-made man image. What would make a savior out of him verses just a really adept warlord?

Now yes I'm giving ignorance a lot of credit here, but ignorance seems to prevail in the universe for vastly long periods of time. Something has to hold it together beyond the notion of a super-alpha primate who was good at everything, but there is no heaven correct?

And I although I haven't searched very hard on this, this raises the question in regards to the crosses of the Templars. Are they just following the rule of cool? or does the cross actually have some significance relevant to his significance?

The only reason the Emperor is seen as a holy saviour is that it's what the Lectitio Divinitatus preaches. The Emperor united humanity under his banner and then sacrificed himself for humanity according to the book so that's what people believe.
As for ignorance, it's state-enforced ignorance. The Imperial Creed provides control for the High Lords and power for the Ecclesiarchy. Nobody thinks to question the Imperial Creed because why would it be wrong if everyone, including the Government, says it's true? Information is tightly controlled and people interact in the same way as they did in the middle ages, at churches, taverns, or by hearing from heralds of their liege lord.
The Templar cross has no religious significance, it was an honour badge in the Heresy associated with the first Company of the Imperial Fists Legion that was then split to become the Black Templars Chapter which just so happened to also be led by Sigismund who had converted to the Lectitio Divinitatus post-Heresy.
   
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The Dark Imperium

 Gert wrote:

The only reason the Emperor is seen as a holy saviour is that it's what the Lectitio Divinitatus preaches. The Emperor united humanity under his banner and then sacrificed himself for humanity according to the book so that's what people believe.


 Gert wrote:
The Templar cross has no religious significance, it was an honour badge in the Heresy associated with the first Company of the Imperial Fists Legion that was then split to become the Black Templars Chapter which just so happened to also be led by Sigismund who had converted to the Lectitio Divinitatus post-Heresy.


Ah so essentially a Christ figure, who's children coincidentally become Templars, but for guarding a temple of secular ideals while bearing the crosses of the Knights Templar, further adopting their father's image as the God-head because the High Lords need power?

I'm not willing to give up on that one justd yet without further details. Symbols always have meaning. If our history is also in-verse history the connection is just too good.


 Gert wrote:
As for ignorance, it's state-enforced ignorance. The Imperial Creed provides control for the High Lords and power for the Ecclesiarchy. Nobody thinks to question the Imperial Creed because why would it be wrong if everyone, including the Government, says it's true? Information is tightly controlled and people interact in the same way as they did in the middle ages, at churches, taverns, or by hearing from heralds of their liege lord.



Gosh I swear there's a lesson for present society in there somewhere! But I best digress on that one!



   
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You're digging too deep and making jumps to find connections that aren't there.
40k takes a lot of different inspirations from all over the place, not just Christianity.
   
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The Dark Imperium

 Gert wrote:
You're digging too deep and making jumps to find connections that aren't there.
40k takes a lot of different inspirations from all over the place, not just Christianity.


I was afraid it would amount to cool factor, I had hoped for a conspiracy.

   
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Tacoma, WA, USA

I just wanted to stop in and say a Cult of the Holy Mother of the God-Emperor better put the Emperor and his Holy Sons, the Loyal Primarchs, before this Holy Mother. Failure to do so would fall outside of the level of local divergence in worship of the God-Empreror the Ecclesiarchy would accept. And those are grounds for a purge
   
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The Dark Imperium

 alextroy wrote:
I just wanted to stop in and say a Cult of the Holy Mother of the God-Emperor better put the Emperor and his Holy Sons, the Loyal Primarchs, before this Holy Mother. Failure to do so would fall outside of the level of local divergence in worship of the God-Empreror the Ecclesiarchy would accept. And those are grounds for a purge


Yeah I figured as much, so if this were to happen it would have to be under the radar somewhere out there. Loyalists, but heretics none the less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*I mean the whole thing is a pretty funny when you think about it. Kinda mimics the Catholic vs Protestant theological debate.

Now without opening the door to any theological challenge, the perspectives on Mary are both valid ones for their respective owners. I'm not going to tell anyone their personal believes are less than another.

And trust me I've lived through the crossfire of those debates. Won't start it here.

In lore case, the Ecclesiarchy mimics the RCC, and yet in many ways is reflective of Protestant Evangelism.

Only in 40K...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/11 00:01:42


   
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The Ecclesiarchy is supposed to be representative of organised religion as a whole taken to the extreme rather than any one organisation.
   
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Germany

 Gert wrote:
The Ecclesiarchy is supposed to be representative of organised religion as a whole taken to the extreme rather than any one organisation.


Protestantism is one of the lamer Heresies all things considered, but the multitudes of weird christian offshoots are not well-known enough to make easily recognizable satire of them nowadays. There are about half a dozen Orthodox churches that consider themselves the original Catholic church, for example, you got all manners of schisms over what to include in the Bible, then you have 'philosophical' deviations like Calvinism, Catharism and lots and lots of others, and that doesn't even begin to consider more recent movements that are offshoots of Christianity but no longer considered part of it or at least not part of 'mainstream' Christianity, like Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, Seventh-Day-Adventists and such, whatever happens in South America with e.g. Pachamama, and so on.

Human history is hella complex and confusing
   
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The Dark Imperium

Going to recant a bit here without making an apology for RC dogma.

With the right circumstances attached and providing some value to the end goals of the Imperium (think other more utterly atrocious loyalists), as long as the God-Mother isn't placed above the God-Emperor it should be fine, if you consider the template for having saints in the game is already there. The Goddess then becomes an honorary Queen of Heaven, the vessel of purity through which God made man entered the world.





   
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Earth

the Godempress is canon so its not much of a stretch to change that name to be the God mother of mankind, House Escher for example worship the God Empress (as they see it) and if I remember correctly there is another example of a woman looking at the God Emperor and seeing him as a woman and thus a God Empress.

this again could easily be interpreted by the in universe populace as the Mother of mankind just as the Emperor is considered the Father of mankind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and the end and the death states that the Emperor has taken on many forms, both male, female and neither as disguises, so while he is still a male, he can change his appearance at will.

another justification of the God Mother is that one of these people that learned of or saw him in this aspect created a religion around that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/12 01:56:25


 
   
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The Dark Imperium

That's an interesting angle I had not known.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/12 01:59:44


   
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'The emperor' is presented in a million ways on a million worlds. I'm.sure the Emperor is represented somewhere as everything from the sun, the biggest animal or largest mountain of a feral world, a star constelation , male and female forms or no form.at all. His worship is a 'big tent'.

So long as the echlesiarchy can come along and say a 'diety' is representative of the Emperor, its more or less ok.

I've always figured pp's warmachine's menoth could very easily be 're-drawn' as an Emperor figure, assuming caen existed in the 40k universe.

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Deadnight wrote:
'The emperor' is presented in a million ways on a million worlds. I'm.sure the Emperor is represented somewhere as everything from the sun, the biggest animal or largest mountain of a feral world, a star constelation , male and female forms or no form.at all. His worship is a 'big tent'.

So long as the echlesiarchy can come along and say a 'diety' is representative of the Emperor, its more or less ok.

I've always figured pp's warmachine's menoth could very easily be 're-drawn' as an Emperor figure, assuming caen existed in the 40k universe.


The Emperor as the literal sun and the Emperor as the top predator-animal are both literally canon, both in the old Inquisitor 54mm rulebook.

It has been explained in several books that the Missionarium Galactica usually works with whatever native religion they find: as long as it gets the broad strokes right, e.g. The Emperor is the god-father of mankind, he wants you to go forth and conquer the galaxy in his name, witchcraft and sorcerry are a big no-no, other gods are forbidden, humanity is destined to lord over all creation, if you fight well you go into the afterlife at the side of the Emperor, you're good to go, it does not matter if the Afterlife is a Valhalla-style eternal battle & feasting or more like Nirvana or whatever.
   
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Bergen

Do we even know if the emperor is even human? The emperor is one of those things that is one of the pillars of the setting but is never really explained. I would go so far that explaining it would even be bad for the setting.

There used to be an explanation, but they rolled the explanation back. (All magic users like ancient shamans comitted ritual sueside and got reincarmated intp the same body.)

   
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 Niiai wrote:
Do we even know if the emperor is even human? The emperor is one of those things that is one of the pillars of the setting but is never really explained. I would go so far that explaining it would even be bad for the setting.

There used to be an explanation, but they rolled the explanation back. (All magic users like ancient shamans comitted ritual sueside and got reincarmated intp the same body.)


From the HH books we know that he did a very, very long slower-than-light trip to Molech back before the Unification wars, and then did something there that increased his powers so much that he didn't need a ship anymore to make the return trip.

   
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The Dark Imperium

I hope they leave it unexplained honestly. That's what keeps the lore dynamic, and homebrews diverse. Kill the mystery and the lore is dead.

   
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Germany

 Adeptekon wrote:
I hope they leave it unexplained honestly. That's what keeps the lore dynamic, and homebrews diverse. Kill the mystery and the lore is dead.


I think they'll do what they always do: attempt to explain it, but end up with a contradictory and incoherent story, and then act like that's what they wanted to do in the first place and as if the mystery and contradictions were there on purpose and for a reason. Which is actually fine by me, because it allows people room for speculation and cool fan theories and stories
   
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The Dark Imperium

Tsagualsa wrote:
 Adeptekon wrote:
I hope they leave it unexplained honestly. That's what keeps the lore dynamic, and homebrews diverse. Kill the mystery and the lore is dead.


I think they'll do what they always do: attempt to explain it, but end up with a contradictory and incoherent story, and then act like that's what they wanted to do in the first place and as if the mystery and contradictions were there on purpose and for a reason. Which is actually fine by me, because it allows people room for speculation and cool fan theories and stories


Heh true,

   
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 Niiai wrote:
Do we even know if the emperor is even human? The emperor is one of those things that is one of the pillars of the setting but is never really explained. I would go so far that explaining it would even be bad for the setting.

There used to be an explanation, but they rolled the explanation back. (All magic users like ancient shamans comitted ritual sueside and got reincarmated intp the same body.)


The general idea is that he was just your bog standard perpetual at first - like Erda and Ollanius and the rest - but then over the course of his infinite lifetime, he's done things that gradually enhanced him beyond that. Whether it was the shamans being merged into him or the Molech-scepade, he gradually evolved over the centuries to be more than he was at birth. Erda had something similar happen, albeit to a lesser degree, there's a reason she could fight four greater daemons singlehandedly and win. Then the Imperial survivors plugged Him into the Golden Throne (clearly intended as the control mechanism for an Old One device), and now the constant influx of psyker souls and belief of the masses has transformed Him yet again over the following ten millennia.

Theoretically, any human could end up like that, given that Grammaticus was turned into an artificial perpetual. But it's taken 50,000 years and a gak ton of events to make the Emperor into what he is in 40K. It would be difficult to replicate. Whether after all these events the Emperor still qualifies as a human is up to individual perspective really.


 
   
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The Dark Imperium

A perpetual with a name such as 'Erda' (glaring associative references applied), it makes me wonder. From the little I read she seems so unassuming despite being so close with the emperor.

As I don't know how much was publicly known that she went half on the primarchs, I wonder if there were any cults and came to worship her.

I would think it pretty reasonable for people to diefy her as a Mother Goddess.

   
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Tacoma, WA, USA

The nature of the Emperor's humanity and immortality are not really explained. On the other hand, they are not really disputed either. He is simply known to have existed well before the Unification War, yet his part or influence on history before then in unknown. This is not helped by most of human history before the Unification War being lost in Old Night.

And to follow upon the conversation since my last post, Holy Mother of the God-Emperor of Mankind is dangerously close to heretical. God-Empress, Mother of Mankind is just another type of local worship the Missionarium Galactica would come up with to get a Goddess centered religion within Adeptus Ministorum guidelines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/15 04:24:42


 
   
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 Adeptekon wrote:
A perpetual with a name such as 'Erda' (glaring associative references applied), it makes me wonder. From the little I read she seems so unassuming despite being so close with the emperor.

As I don't know how much was publicly known that she went half on the primarchs, I wonder if there were any cults and came to worship her.

I would think it pretty reasonable for people to diefy her as a Mother Goddess.


There migh be cults worshipping her descended from DAoT and earlier. Perpetuals were pretty rare, and whilst she was isolated during the Great Crusade years, there's nothing to say she wasn't actively running her own mini-Empire in the year, say, 15,000.

Frankly, there's a massive disconnect of 25,000 odd years pre-Great Crusade where pretty much anything could have happened. Ollanius said he'd tried pretty much every role in life. Malcador was an absolute young 'un by Perpetual standards at a mere six and a half thousand years old.


 
   
 
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