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We know that Pertruabo always wanted to build and not destroy (siege warfare). Since he was the most learned Primarch out of all of his brothers and could understand how every mechanism worked just by taking a glimpse at it, shouldn't that put him above the likes of Ferrus and Vulkan when it comes to building, forging, especially now that he decided chill out and build after the HH? When I'm talking about building, I'm not talking just about fortresses but also making vehicles, guns, weapons, etc. even finding out about lost DAOT tech and replicating that tech with ease.

In the sense of physical buildings or technology, probably yeah. He made a miniature clockwork Warlord with working laser weapons once after all and did create the Eternal Fortress on Sebastus IV.
As an empire builder? In the sense that Perturabo turned Olympia into one of the best holdouts for the Traitor Legions during the Scouring and even into the 41st millennium had Iron Warriors garrisons in real-space holding pocket empires, sort of. He did create heavily militarised and powerful regions of space but they all lacked the relative quality of life found in the areas built by the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. A human born into the empires of Perturabo would be drafted into weapons manufacturing, fortification construction, militia service, or even press-ganged into the Legion proper whereas one within Ultramar or Inwit could live a fairly normal life even by Imperial standards.

 Gert wrote:
In the sense of physical buildings or technology, probably yeah. He made a miniature clockwork Warlord with working laser weapons once after all and did create the Eternal Fortress on Sebastus IV.
As an empire builder? In the sense that Perturabo turned Olympia into one of the best holdouts for the Traitor Legions during the Scouring and even into the 41st millennium had Iron Warriors garrisons in real-space holding pocket empires, sort of. He did create heavily militarised and powerful regions of space but they all lacked the relative quality of life found in the areas built by the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. A human born into the empires of Perturabo would be drafted into weapons manufacturing, fortification construction, militia service, or even press-ganged into the Legion proper whereas one within Ultramar or Inwit could live a fairly normal life even by Imperial standards.

Mainly tech but yeah also buildings. I wouldn't call him an Empire builder because the only one ever fitted to properly build an Empire is Guilliman. IDK about the IF.

Perturabo wore the terminator armor the Logos which let him control every automata and vehicle on the battlefield. Pretty much DAOT tech if you ask me.

But my point is, considering how smart and learned Perturabo is, and able to understand how a mechanism works at first glance, gives him the out most advantage over his brothers Ferrus and Vulkan. That means Perturabo can easily build stuff from Terminator armor to Daemon Engines, easily replicating DAOT tech if he finds, constructing more advanced tech. I mean it's kinda literally implied unless I'm missing the point. I'm also wondering if the "building" thing is also within his sons DNA. Because the Primarchs sons are in a way, a small fraction of their fathers essence.

I'm not sure about "easily" replicating DAOT stuff because there isn't anything to suggest that he can do that. The Logos being able to control Automata isn't very special considering Cortex Controllers were a widely available piece of equipment during the Crusade and Heresy.
With regard to his abilities as one who is good at building objects, Perturabo is very analytical and has an extremely good grasp of mathematics and science. He is highly intelligent and when he constructs something it is to maximise the given role of the object to the highest mathematical degree. When Dorn fortifies the Imperial Palace, he attempts to retain as much of the original structure and beauty as possible, lamenting that he must destroy it in order to defend it. Perturabo doesn't care about that and removes as many weaknesses as he can in his constructs. He even removed viewing ports from his flagship, the Iron Blood, because they served no tactical purpose beyond vanity. Why have windows when the data and pict captures can be beamed directly into a HUD in his helmet?
If something doesn't benefit the role of the object, it is removed. It's why the Iron Warriors are not a Legion well known for embellishments or honour badges during their time as Imperial servants and why they often eschew the trappings of "regular" Chaos Astartes because they don't serve a purpose beyond vanity.

A bit of a tangent, but it would be a bit more interesting if Perturabo was a bit more focused on software than his other craftsmen brothers. Just something to delineate his skills and add some variety.

As for who the 'best builder' is, it really depends on who the protagonist is. All the primarchs could understand things at a glance. Vulkan has magical doomsday machines somewhere, Ferrus Mannus built weapons for all the primarchs and Rogal Dorn has the imperial fortress. Even Mortarion now has his own tank. It's also hard to really guage how skilled Perturabo is with the whole 'wasted genius' stereotype he has going on. It could be true or it's all just his overinflated ego.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
A bit of a tangent, but it would be a bit more interesting if Perturabo was a bit more focused on software than his other craftsmen brothers. Just something to delineate his skills and add some variety.

As for who the 'best builder' is, it really depends on who the protagonist is. All the primarchs could understand things at a glance. Vulkan has magical doomsday machines somewhere, Ferrus Mannus built weapons for all the primarchs and Rogal Dorn has the imperial fortress. Even Mortarion now has his own tank. It's also hard to really guage how skilled Perturabo is with the whole 'wasted genius' stereotype he has going on. It could be true or it's all just his overinflated ego.

He kinda is, though? His solution to 'create new, more reliable bodyguard for Heresy' was to build completely new class of automata he could direct with a thought. As far as I know no other primarch did anything similar. He also excelled at integration and improvement of new systems and sensors into existing designs, stuff that in RL is handled by software (see his own terminator armor, which could double as his flagship bridge or entire army command room, something no other primarch had, or IW terminators, apparently so good Roboute Guilliman decided to copy them for his own legion after looking at all the other legion designs).

As for the above examples, they all slightly upgraded already existing designs (and they were all arguably inferior to stuff Perturabo did as a spare time hobby, from tanks to fortresses). Perturabo was the only one who actually managed to understand how lost technology worked and made completely new things on the basis of it (like miniaturizing Warhound titan, all systems included, to 40K mini sized one, and having it work perfectly). A difference between scientist/engineer compared to blacksmith (Ferrus), craftsman (Vulkan) or draughtsman (Dorn). Sure, Perturabo wouldn't make you gilded, beautifully engraved hammer but his own design looking like a brick on stick would include indestructible force field shell powered by endlessly running generator siphoning energy from entropic decay of the universe or something.

 Irbis wrote:

He kinda is, though? His solution to 'create new, more reliable bodyguard for Heresy' was to build completely new class of automata he could direct with a thought. As far as I know no other primarch did anything similar. He also excelled at integration and improvement of new systems and sensors into existing designs, stuff that in RL is handled by software (see his own terminator armor, which could double as his flagship bridge or entire army command room, something no other primarch had, or IW terminators, apparently so good Roboute Guilliman decided to copy them for his own legion after looking at all the other legion designs).

Didn't knew Guilliman copied his Terminator armor. But how good of a copy did he did? Exact same copy or a lesser version of them.

 Irbis wrote:
As for the above examples, they all slightly upgraded already existing designs (and they were all arguably inferior to stuff Perturabo did as a spare time hobby, from tanks to fortresses). Perturabo was the only one who actually managed to understand how lost technology worked and made completely new things on the basis of it (like miniaturizing Warhound titan, all systems included, to 40K mini sized one, and having it work perfectly). A difference between scientist/engineer compared to blacksmith (Ferrus), craftsman (Vulkan) or draughtsman (Dorn). Sure, Perturabo wouldn't make you gilded, beautifully engraved hammer but his own design looking like a brick on stick would include indestructible force field shell powered by endlessly running generator siphoning energy from entropic decay of the universe or something.

So it proves that he's overall the best above his brothers when it comes to building/creating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
I'm not sure about "easily" replicating DAOT stuff because there isn't anything to suggest that he can do that. The Logos being able to control Automata isn't very special considering Cortex Controllers were a widely available piece of equipment during the Crusade and Heresy.
With regard to his abilities as one who is good at building objects, Perturabo is very analytical and has an extremely good grasp of mathematics and science. He is highly intelligent and when he constructs something it is to maximise the given role of the object to the highest mathematical degree. When Dorn fortifies the Imperial Palace, he attempts to retain as much of the original structure and beauty as possible, lamenting that he must destroy it in order to defend it. Perturabo doesn't care about that and removes as many weaknesses as he can in his constructs. He even removed viewing ports from his flagship, the Iron Blood, because they served no tactical purpose beyond vanity. Why have windows when the data and pict captures can be beamed directly into a HUD in his helmet?
If something doesn't benefit the role of the object, it is removed. It's why the Iron Warriors are not a Legion well known for embellishments or honour badges during their time as Imperial servants and why they often eschew the trappings of "regular" Chaos Astartes because they don't serve a purpose beyond vanity.

I know there isn't anything, but what it's stated about him, and taking into consideration that he's a demi-god, understanding and building DAOT tech wouldn't be a problem for him.

Wasn't there something stated that Perturabo fails at defenses where as Dorn is the one who exceeds in it and keeps the beauty of object?

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
I know there isn't anything, but what it's stated about him, and taking into consideration that he's a demi-god, understanding and building DAOT tech wouldn't be a problem for him.

Wasn't there something stated that Perturabo fails at defenses where as Dorn is the one who exceeds in it and keeps the beauty of object?

With his skill set, it is indeed likely that he could at least understand or repair certain Dark Age tech but it's just speculation. It's best to stick to what we know otherwise discussions tend to go around in circles of "Ah but X could do Y we just haven't seen it".
When it comes to comparing Dorn and Perturabo, it's not an easy thing to do. They aren't similar beyond being masters of strategy and warfare, with Dorn being far more personable and close within the Primarch brotherhood, meaning his forces were more easily able to be effectively reinforced by allies, while Perturabo was a bitter and closed-off individual with only Magnus as a true ally. Their upbringings were also very different, with Dorn being raised within a people who were a family to him and eventually rising to become the leader of a small stellar empire, whereas Perturabo was a tool to be used by the Tyrant of Lochos. In warfare itself even then it is difficult to tell. Both have many victories under their belts but Perturabo edges out IMO because he beat Dorn at Terra. The walls fell and it was only the fractious nature of the Traitor forces and Perturabo's disgust of them that saw the bulk of the Iron Warriors quit the field after breaking Dorn's defences.

 Irbis wrote:
...or IW terminators, apparently so good Roboute Guilliman decided to copy them for his own legion after looking at all the other legion designs).

What's your citation for this claim, Irbis?

+ + +

I can certainly buy that Perturbo thinks he's the best builder, without a doubt.

I think there are different types of builders and quality. One may be more stable, the other simpler, a third perhaps more artistic, stronger, harder, more unusual, cheaper, etc. Perturabo may understand how something works and can then recreate it, but perhaps the works of his technically gifted brothers have others, not necessarily better, qualities.

Well, define best.

Sure Dorn arguably stayed his hand when he shouldn’t have when reinforcing the Imperial Palace. But we don’t and can’t know for sure if Perturabo, had their roles been reversed have done differently, or that the resultant fortifications would’ve been better.

The key to understanding Primarchs is they weren’t there to outdo each other, so much as be better than Everything Else.

All had fine analytical minds. That Perturabo or Dorn could suss out whatever passes for a weak point before their brothers is not to say their brothers were therefore incapable of finding it. Nor does a given fortress or what have you having a weak point in its design make it a poor design, because all such things are relative.

Sure, some might have a genuine Achilles heel. A point their builder overlooked, or had never seen the technology which might be able to exploit it. Consider mass teleportation attacks. In 40K and Heresy, teleportation is done by a hop, skip and jump through The Warp. If your planet has no knowledge of the Warp, there’s no way you can plan for that. Yes it’s glaring gap in your defences, but does not make your defences flawed until someone else has that advantage.

My take away is that Perturabo’s issues stem from not being allowed to build Pretty Things. That he pushed his Legion to the limit to breach enemy fortifications, only to have the glory of claiming ultimate victory fall time and again to another Legion.

Did he spend his men’s lives callously? Sure. But seemingly not needlessly.

 Gert wrote:

With his skill set, it is indeed likely that he could at least understand or repair certain Dark Age tech but it's just speculation. It's best to stick to what we know otherwise discussions tend to go around in circles of "Ah but X could do Y we just haven't seen it".

I'm going to stay with the headcanon that Perty, can.

 Gert wrote:
When it comes to comparing Dorn and Perturabo, it's not an easy thing to do. They aren't similar beyond being masters of strategy and warfare, with Dorn being far more personable and close within the Primarch brotherhood, meaning his forces were more easily able to be effectively reinforced by allies, while Perturabo was a bitter and closed-off individual with only Magnus as a true ally. Their upbringings were also very different, with Dorn being raised within a people who were a family to him and eventually rising to become the leader of a small stellar empire, whereas Perturabo was a tool to be used by the Tyrant of Lochos. In warfare itself even then it is difficult to tell. Both have many victories under their belts but Perturabo edges out IMO because he beat Dorn at Terra. The walls fell and it was only the fractious nature of the Traitor forces and Perturabo's disgust of them that saw the bulk of the Iron Warriors quit the field after breaking Dorn's defences.

I wasn't comparing, I think that was the reason Perty wasn't chosen to build Terra's defenses and the Imperial Palace. I mean there were other reasons as well, but that was the main one. It's rather much simpler, Dorn specializes in defense, while his offense, is weaker, whereas Perty's specializes in offense, but has "weaker" defenses. Still greatest defense is offense and Perturabo proves multiple times that he IS the better Siege Master than Dorn. Also didn't Barabas Dantioch build a fortress better than Perty?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, define best.

Sure Dorn arguably stayed his hand when he shouldn’t have when reinforcing the Imperial Palace. But we don’t and can’t know for sure if Perturabo, had their roles been reversed have done differently, or that the resultant fortifications would’ve been better.

The key to understanding Primarchs is they weren’t there to outdo each other, so much as be better than Everything Else.

All had fine analytical minds. That Perturabo or Dorn could suss out whatever passes for a weak point before their brothers is not to say their brothers were therefore incapable of finding it. Nor does a given fortress or what have you having a weak point in its design make it a poor design, because all such things are relative.

Sure, some might have a genuine Achilles heel. A point their builder overlooked, or had never seen the technology which might be able to exploit it. Consider mass teleportation attacks. In 40K and Heresy, teleportation is done by a hop, skip and jump through The Warp. If your planet has no knowledge of the Warp, there’s no way you can plan for that. Yes it’s glaring gap in your defences, but does not make your defences flawed until someone else has that advantage.

My take away is that Perturabo’s issues stem from not being allowed to build Pretty Things. That he pushed his Legion to the limit to breach enemy fortifications, only to have the glory of claiming ultimate victory fall time and again to another Legion.

Did he spend his men’s lives callously? Sure. But seemingly not needlessly.

It's in the title "best builder", it's a particular thing, a general term. He is currently the best builder.

I have nothing comparing him with Dorn in my OP. By "building" I also meant creating stuff, Ferrus and Vulkan maybe warsmiths and craftsmen, but Perturabo can outdo both of them thanks to his genius mind. Perturabo can easily build a new advanced Titan and just wreck havoc, and create something entirely new, unknown to the so called ''lovers of tech" that keep the Imperium from advancing.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
...or IW terminators, apparently so good Roboute Guilliman decided to copy them for his own legion after looking at all the other legion designs).

What's your citation for this claim, Irbis?

+ + +

I can certainly buy that Perturbo thinks he's the best builder, without a doubt.

The sidebar From book V for Fulmentarus terminators says that Guiliman was impressed by the Tyrant siege terminators of the IH, and adopted and refined that into his own legion.

Perturabo personally crafted some remarkable devices, but so did some of his brothers.

Vulkan, for example, crafted a unique, monstrous forge ship able to churn out large quantities of Astartes-grade gear to supply his legion- probably with largely automated processes given the low manpower base of the Salamanders. This vessel is still functioning in the 41st millennium and still provides the majority of Salamander equipment and munitions.

Basically Perturabo is a great artisan, but I don't think there is anything to suggest he is more impressive in this regard than Vulkan or Ferrus Manus. All are genius builders. It seems Perturabo has something of a prediliction towards automata however.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
I wasn't comparing, I think that was the reason Perty wasn't chosen to build Terra's defenses and the Imperial Palace. I mean there were other reasons as well, but that was the main one. It's rather much simpler, Dorn specializes in defense, while his offense, is weaker, whereas Perty's specializes in offense, but has "weaker" defenses. Still greatest defense is offense and Perturabo proves multiple times that he IS the better Siege Master than Dorn. Also didn't Barabas Dantioch build a fortress better than Perty?

You brought up Dorn and made a comparison. We only know that Dorn was chosen and can only speculate as to why that was. The likeliest reason is that Perturabo wasn't the statesman and diplomat Dorn was. He cared about maximum efficiency and minimal waste, whereas Dorn was far more empathetic to the needs of those around him especially baseline humans. Dorn's biggest "flaw" was that he never lied, even if it would make things easier for him. Indeed it was his belief that in agreeing with Horus' boast about the Imperial Fists being the masters of defence in front of Perturabo, Dorn contributed to the bad blood between the two.
Also, no. Dantioch didn't make a better fortress than Perturabo. It was a good fortress but not better than any Perturabo constructed.
Anyway, I've already said why I believe Perturabo to be the greatest builder/constructor of the Primarchs so anything else is just going in circles.

In dorns primarch book the sigilite says dorn was chosen becuse he always did exactly what the emperor told him to do. No more no less. That is why he was chosen.

Boosykes wrote:
In dorns primarch book the sigilite says dorn was chosen becuse he always did exactly what the emperor told him to do. No more no less. That is why he was chosen.

Worst decision ever LOL

All of the primarchs were savants when it came to technology, weren’t they? It’s part of how they all excelled in the places they grew up. Although I suppose we don’t see this in the lion but there is no real tech to speak of on caliban. There is the story where fulgrim and ferrus compete to build the best weapon but the can’t decide which is better so they swap weapons. I think it has more to do with how each of them applies their gene coded skills to their own kind of warfare.

They were all highly intelligent beings, some were just smarter than others and Perturabo was one of those.

Essentially yes and he is probably the most intelligent Primarch. Every Primarch has a superhuman capacity to learn, some more than others. Perturabo is the sole Primarch who was able to intuitively understand essentially any subject no matter how technical.

He is easily the most multi-talented Primarch, rivaling Dorn in siegecraft, Ferrus Manus in technology, Vulkan as a forgemaster, and is honestly probably a better artist than Fulgrim (not that that's saying much hyuck). His grasp for logistics (unrelated to thread but just talking about general intellect atm) rivals Guilliman considering how he was able to maintain his legion as IIRC the second or third largest on a consistent basis despite taking huge attrition in every campaign doing the most grueling work. He has probably the most advanced suit of powered armour of all his brothers, seeing as it was equipped with advanced cybernetics and software that enabled him to use it as a mobile command hub for all of his forces, showing a unique skill for software as alluded to earlier and shown also in his use of advanced automotons. Despite having never shown psychic power he was able to make a working Warp compass that Magnus thought was invaluable based on nothing more than some of Magnus' notes (which he then destroyed lol).

Perturabo is probably the most talented Primarch period, but this is weighed down by his crippling personal flaws which are heavy even by the standards of the traitor Primarchs.