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Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Are we guessing they're going to let him (and his faction) fade away, or are we guessing them pump him up (with rules, fluff, or both) to get some sales?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

I'm expecting him to stay as a CSM character in the CSM codex until Dark Mechanicum are eventually broken out into their own book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/20 04:03:58


The Circle of Iniquity
The Fourth Seal
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

1) Well at $100 (US) he's grossly overpriced modelwise.
Cool model, not $100 cool though....

2) As a character he's fairly situational.
Were he cheaper he'd make a descent Demon prince though.

3) Sales of almost everything 40k have hit pause at my local shops. People are just waiting until 10e arrives. I'd suspect this is the case in a great many areas.

So it doesn't surprise me at all if he's not an instant sell out.

As for his fate? I'm sure they'll keep him around.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Given that Vashtorr was already available in the boxed set, it isn't particularly surprising that he didn't sell out once released as a separate kit. Everybody who had to have him now either purchased the box or got him second hand from people breaking down the box set.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 alextroy wrote:
Given that Vashtorr was already available in the boxed set, it isn't particularly surprising that he didn't sell out once released as a separate kit. Everybody who had to have him now either purchased the box or got him second hand from people breaking down the box set.


Azrael was also in the box and sold out.

Several replies have also pointed out he's just not worth it - which was the point of my question - Do they boost him, or memory hole him?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Azrael is a remodel of a popular character, whereas Vashtorr is a brand new character. Brand new characters don't sell as well as new versions of older characters.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

On top of Azrael being a Space Marine. Everybody and their cat is a potential customer for that, compared to all other factions. I wouldn't read too much into it.

   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

The likeliest thing to Vashtorr is the fate of most campaign characters: never getting mentioned again, or not mentioned again for years, until they need them again for another campaign or plot point. Just like Yraine, the Yncarne or the Visarch, their part is over, for now, and if they ever get another one is something not even GW knows for now, because they don't have decided it yet.
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






a_typical_hero wrote:
On top of Azrael being a Space Marine. Everybody and their cat is a potential customer for that, compared to all other factions. I wouldn't read too much into it.


That, and Azrael pretty much is an OG as the head honcho of one of the most popular chapters of Space Marines while Vashtor doesn't have any such resonance with fans. He didn't have any buildup or anticipation going for him and he's pretty expensive for a character that's far more niche. Additionally, in terms of rules he's also much more niche as he doesn't fit into a large proportion of his faction's armies.

And indeed, he's just a campaign character. Not a character with any sort of deeper meaning. His main role really was to get beaten and characters like him don't have a great track record in further attention.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

He also had really gak rules. That couldn't've helped.

I imagine he'll play a role in whatever Arks of Omen 2: This Time It's Personal is.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Breton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Given that Vashtorr was already available in the boxed set, it isn't particularly surprising that he didn't sell out once released as a separate kit. Everybody who had to have him now either purchased the box or got him second hand from people breaking down the box set.


Azrael was also in the box and sold out.

Several replies have also pointed out he's just not worth it - which was the point of my question - Do they boost him, or memory hole him?


Azrael is part of line that outsells everything else by far margin. Expecting non loyalist marine to sell as well is optimistic

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 Dolnikan wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
On top of Azrael being a Space Marine. Everybody and their cat is a potential customer for that, compared to all other factions. I wouldn't read too much into it.


That, and Azrael pretty much is an OG as the head honcho of one of the most popular chapters of Space Marines while Vashtor doesn't have any such resonance with fans. He didn't have any buildup or anticipation going for him and he's pretty expensive for a character that's far more niche. Additionally, in terms of rules he's also much more niche as he doesn't fit into a large proportion of his faction's armies.

And indeed, he's just a campaign character. Not a character with any sort of deeper meaning. His main role really was to get beaten and characters like him don't have a great track record in further attention.


It's a little sad that this describes several of the CSM chars we have models for. Haarken, arguably Fabius Bile and even Huron are very niché characters while we don’t habe any for the likes of Word Bearers, Nightlords and Iron Warriors which are fan favorites and legions that feature in every campaign.

And that's still a better Situation than Dark Eldar are in
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It's a little sad that this describes several of the CSM chars we have models for. Haarken, arguably Fabius Bile and even Huron are very niché characters while we don’t habe any for the likes of Word Bearers, Nightlords and Iron Warriors which are fan favorites and legions that feature in every campaign.

And that's still a better Situation than Dark Eldar are in

Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart are not niche characters. Bile is central to the fall of the Emperor's Children and represents one of the few sources for which Warbands can gain new Astartes while Huron's story goes all the way back to Rogue Trader with his first rules appearing in 2nd Edition.
With the God Legions being split out into their own armies, I agree that it would be nice to see the remaining Traitor Legions get at least one named character but I'd prefer to see an updated Huron first considering it currently sits in that horrible void of having rules but a model that is out of production.
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Gert wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It's a little sad that this describes several of the CSM chars we have models for. Haarken, arguably Fabius Bile and even Huron are very niché characters while we don’t habe any for the likes of Word Bearers, Nightlords and Iron Warriors which are fan favorites and legions that feature in every campaign.

And that's still a better Situation than Dark Eldar are in

Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart are not niche characters. Bile is central to the fall of the Emperor's Children and represents one of the few sources for which Warbands can gain new Astartes while Huron's story goes all the way back to Rogue Trader with his first rules appearing in 2nd Edition.
With the God Legions being split out into their own armies, I agree that it would be nice to see the remaining Traitor Legions get at least one named character but I'd prefer to see an updated Huron first considering it currently sits in that horrible void of having rules but a model that is out of production.


With this edition's detachment system they may well have a play at the age old problem of representing both original HH legionnaries and recently-defected renegade marines with the CSM codex - if they do, Huron may get a new model to lead the latter.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




I'm unclear why a product being available for purchase would be a big deal.

That's honestly how its supposed to work. Selling out of normal stock is a screw up.
They don't need to do anything, because this is the system working as intended (sadly unlike many, many other things).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/05/20 16:17:19


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 Gert wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It's a little sad that this describes several of the CSM chars we have models for. Haarken, arguably Fabius Bile and even Huron are very niché characters while we don’t habe any for the likes of Word Bearers, Nightlords and Iron Warriors which are fan favorites and legions that feature in every campaign.

And that's still a better Situation than Dark Eldar are in

Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart are not niche characters. Bile is central to the fall of the Emperor's Children and represents one of the few sources for which Warbands can gain new Astartes while Huron's story goes all the way back to Rogue Trader with his first rules appearing in 2nd Edition.
With the God Legions being split out into their own armies, I agree that it would be nice to see the remaining Traitor Legions get at least one named character but I'd prefer to see an updated Huron first considering it currently sits in that horrible void of having rules but a model that is out of production.


I'm not saying they're unimportant, just that there are more obvious choices for characters that would deserve getting miniatures because they're important figures of relevant legions, like Kor Phaeron or Honsou, for example. I'd admit though that Huron as most important renegade leader has his place. Maybe GW sells me more on Fabius if he got reintegrated in an upcoming Emperor's Children codex .
Still, I feel it's a bit as if you had Arjac and Njal for SW but Ragnar and Logan were missing.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I'm not saying they're unimportant, just that there are more obvious choices for characters that would deserve getting miniatures because they're important figures of relevant legions, like Kor Phaeron or Honsou, for example. I'd admit though that Huron as most important renegade leader has his place. Maybe GW sells me more on Fabius if he got reintegrated in an upcoming Emperor's Children codex .
Still, I feel it's a bit as if you had Arjac and Njal for SW but Ragnar and Logan were missing.

Honsou is not important, at all, and I say this as someone who loves the Iron Warriors and Graham McNeill's books featuring them. He was an antagonist for Uriel Ventris who lost the first war he fought as the leader of his Warband that also got usurped by M'kar.
For Kor Phaeron and Erebus, they were important but they rapidly got eclipsed by others even in the Heresy. They were important in the past but not anymore.

Fabius Bile is the premier genesmith for any and all who can afford him. When Abaddon needs new Astartes, he goes to Fabius. When a Warband wants to get stronger, they go to Fabius. His skills are legendary to the point where at one time the Craftworlders, Drukhari, multiple Legions and Warbands (including the Word Bearers Dark Council), and even Fulgrim himself had contracts to either kill or capture him.
As for Huron, again he is as old as Rogue Trader and has had rules since 2nd Edition. His background is as impressive as any other named Chaos champion. He built a Legion strength force of Renegades, subjugated swathes of the Maelstrom, and became a rival to Abaddon in under a hundred years.

As before, now that the CSM Codex has dropped 4 Legions it leaves the roster pretty sparse and I agree that a couple of extra Characters would be a good idea to fill out the gaps. That being said, no other Legion deserves a new model before Huron.
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

True true, the Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors are the NPC Legions in an NPC army and as such don't deserve characters.
   
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Void__Dragon wrote:
True true, the Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors are the NPC Legions in an NPC army and as such don't deserve characters.


That's true for a lot of subfactions. Until recently how many named did Eldar have? After the Eldar Soup thing wears off who will still be around for Eldrad? Even many of the loyalist marine chapters are lucky to have one named. Blood Angels have been stuck with a dead guy for over roughly 30 years. Most of the "codex" chapters got one guy a few editions ago to go with their super formation from Angels of Death, MAYBE got one more (or had their one guy cross the Rubicon) with the introduction of Primaris. Nid players get a couple monsters that are only sorta "Named".

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







All the Pheonix Lords, Prince Yriel and Illic Nightspear don't exist at all?
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Breton wrote:
That's true for a lot of subfactions. Until recently how many named did Eldar have? After the Eldar Soup thing wears off who will still be around for Eldrad? Even many of the loyalist marine chapters are lucky to have one named. Blood Angels have been stuck with a dead guy for over roughly 30 years. Most of the "codex" chapters got one guy a few editions ago to go with their super formation from Angels of Death, MAYBE got one more (or had their one guy cross the Rubicon) with the introduction of Primaris. Nid players get a couple monsters that are only sorta "Named".

Craftworlds were one of the few armies that genuinely rivaled Space Marines for the number of named characters. Where have you been for the last 30 years?
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

The oldest miniature GW still produce for 40k is a named Eldar character!

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Been Around the Block





Vashtorr can easily be found on eBay for 40% off MSRP. I know it won't be in a box, but you usually never see something that much off its regular price.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
All the Pheonix Lords, Prince Yriel and Illic Nightspear don't exist at all?


The Phoenix Lords are generally not subfaction specific nor are they necessarily a "named". They're unique but in M40.998 it might be Billy Bob, who dies in M40.999 and is replaced by Sally who gave up selling seashells by the seashore. It had been Eldrad and all the other craftworlds can DIY for quite a while. How many craftworlds have a Calgar/Azrael/Dante/Abby/etc. level character? AM, Aeldari, Orks, and a couple few others need to get some characters released in these summer campaigns that will stick into future editions.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







There was nothing about "subfaction-specific" in the question you posed that Matt was answering.

You asked "Until recently how many named did Eldar have?" - the answer, as has been pointed out, is "quite a few" - and while the body inside a Phoenix Lord's armour will be different over time, the spirit that's in control of it is the same character.

If you insist on moving the goalposts to being "head of (or otherwise significant character for) a specific Craftworld", both Prince Yriel and Illic Nightspear would seem to qualify (with Yriel having the stronger claim of the two), covering Iyanden and Alaitoc respectively.

That really only leaves Biel-Tan and Saim Hann as major craftworlds without a named character model - I recall Saim Hann had a character in the old Codex: Craftworlds book, but I don't think they ever had a model produced for them.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Breton wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
All the Pheonix Lords, Prince Yriel and Illic Nightspear don't exist at all?


The Phoenix Lords are generally not subfaction specific nor are they necessarily a "named". They're unique but in M40.998 it might be Billy Bob, who dies in M40.999 and is replaced by Sally who gave up selling seashells by the seashore. It had been Eldrad and all the other craftworlds can DIY for quite a while. How many craftworlds have a Calgar/Azrael/Dante/Abby/etc. level character? AM, Aeldari, Orks, and a couple few others need to get some characters released in these summer campaigns that will stick into future editions.

Well marines are the core faction of the game, They don't share their unique releases windows with other factions or each other. For GW a BA or DA player is a BA or DA player, an ork or eldar player is an ork or eldar player. And considering how little the non marine players buy or how often they rebuy their entire armies, it is no wonder that GW is not interested in investing in something that may not sell as well as marines. They made the triumvirate for eldar, and eldar didn't buy them as much as marine players did Gulliman. Heck chaos players were buying him to make their own Primarchs/demon princes etc.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It's a little sad that this describes several of the CSM chars we have models for. Haarken, arguably Fabius Bile and even Huron are very niché characters while we don’t habe any for the likes of Word Bearers, Nightlords and Iron Warriors which are fan favorites and legions that feature in every campaign.

And that's still a better Situation than Dark Eldar are in

Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart are not niche characters. Bile is central to the fall of the Emperor's Children and represents one of the few sources for which Warbands can gain new Astartes while Huron's story goes all the way back to Rogue Trader with his first rules appearing in 2nd Edition.
With the God Legions being split out into their own armies, I agree that it would be nice to see the remaining Traitor Legions get at least one named character but I'd prefer to see an updated Huron first considering it currently sits in that horrible void of having rules but a model that is out of production.


I'm not saying they're unimportant, just that there are more obvious choices for characters that would deserve getting miniatures because they're important figures of relevant legions, like Kor Phaeron or Honsou, for example. I'd admit though that Huron as most important renegade leader has his place. Maybe GW sells me more on Fabius if he got reintegrated in an upcoming Emperor's Children codex .
Still, I feel it's a bit as if you had Arjac and Njal for SW but Ragnar and Logan were missing.


So kor phaeron has been around...since when? Honsou? If they haven't been around since 2nd at least their claim of fame is bit thin

(who are those two anyway?)

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





The Eldar characters are old as hell. I have a boardgame called Doom of the Eldar from 1993 which even has Yriel(albeit in token form).
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Both CSM characters popped up in the early 2000s.

Kor Phaeron is the adopted father of Lorgar and one of the two major Astartes figures of the Word Bearers, the other being Erebus. They engineered the fall of Lorgar to Chaos and in turn, sowed the seeds of the entire Horus Heresy alongside agents such as Typhon/Typhus of the Death Guard. He currently sits on the Word Bearers Dark Council alongside Erebus and other Dark Apostles, playing political games with his erstwhile brethren such as inciting a whole civil war only to disavow his followers when he loses. He has made a return in one of the recent Dawn of Fire novels where he is working to prevent the prophecy of the Star Child (essentially the Emperor reborn) from coming to pass.

Honsou is a Warsmith of the Iron Warriors introduced in Graham McNeills' Storm of Iron. He would later return as the primary antagonist for Uriel Ventris in McNeills' Ultramarines series and started an invasion of Ultramar. His plan was to unleash the captive Daemon M'kar and lead a horde in destroying everything Ventris held dear, however, once M'kar was released it took command of Honsou's army and relegated him to a side mission to Calth.
The next bit of this is going to be a bit delicate. Honsou is widely regarded as a great villain and I agree with that somewhat. However, he has a hardcore fanbase among chuds who like him because:
A - He hates Ultramarines.
B - Owned a super cursed Daemon thing that made Space Marines that is arguably one of the worst things McNeill has ever written about (and that includes the entire novel Fulgrim).
C - Honsou is a massive edge lord.
His villainy is petty and his plans often do well but his only real reason for being chosen as a named character is that the Iron Warriors don't have anyone else. In terms of success or power, he's literally just one Space Marine who got command and then lost it immediately by going after the Ultramarines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/22 11:48:07


 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
There was nothing about "subfaction-specific" in the question you posed that Matt was answering.


Breton wrote:
That's true for a lot of subfactions. Until recently how many named did Eldar have?


You asked "Until recently how many named did Eldar have?" - the answer, as has been pointed out, is "quite a few" - and while the body inside a Phoenix Lord's armour will be different over time, the spirit that's in control of it is the same character.

If you insist on moving the goalposts to being "head of (or otherwise significant character for) a specific Craftworld", both Prince Yriel and Illic Nightspear would seem to qualify (with Yriel having the stronger claim of the two), covering Iyanden and Alaitoc respectively.

That really only leaves Biel-Tan and Saim Hann as major craftworlds without a named character model - I recall Saim Hann had a character in the old Codex: Craftworlds book, but I don't think they ever had a model produced for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/22 13:09:51


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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