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Should The God-Marked Legions Have Been Separated Out From The CSM Dex?
Yes-What GW Did For TSons, DG, WE, And Most Likely EC Soon Was The Right Choice
No-They Should All Be Covered Under One Big CSM Codex
Sorta-Supplements On A Base Codex Would Work
Other-Please Comment Below

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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

See title and poll.

In my opinion, I think they should either be covered under one big CSM Dex. I'd be cool with supplements too, but even with CSM being big ol' bads of the setting, they don't deserve to be subfocused down as much as something more expansive and varied like Guard or Ad Mech; and certainly don't need supplements when Dark Mech and R&H don't even have real Codecs.

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think supplements would be the best of both worlds- it would allow smooth updating, unit sharing and gave enough space that the CSM dex could provide flavour for other subfactions.

Whenever they try and combine too much in one book, something is always lost. Splitting them into their own dexes did allow for more development, and over time even more development will come. But any updates now have to be made to multiple dexes.

(My Drake's better than your Drake, my Drake's better than yours, my Drake's cuz he's in the Ksons book, my Drake's better than yours).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/27 04:15:23


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




honestly Chaos needs 3 books:
Chaos Legions (the HH legions turned chaos, should have more emphasis on marks, demons, etc. this is also where the all-demon armies should be rolled into)
Chaos Renegades (later SM chapters that turned agaisnt the Imperium, should have chaos elements as an option, but should mostly feel like just evil regular marines as a base)
Chaos Cults (focus on non-space marine stuff, like corrupted Imperial Guard, cult armies, and so on)
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I selected "other", because I'm cool with the God-Marked Legions getting their own codexes, I'm not cool with all of the "Undivided" Legions being played off as "the same".
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Yes, the four Marked Legions should've been spun out - but they should've done a better job of it.

By which I mean that the insistence that CSM kits can't be used for TS/DG/WE units (at least in the short-term) is silly. DG Havocs, for example, or WE bikers.

Equally, both TS and WE need a wider array of Legion-specific unit entries (Berserker-Surgeons and Red Butchers for WE at a minimum, maybe WE Bloodcrusher Cavalry too).

I will say I'm less clear for TS on what makes sense to keep from the CSM book or add as new options - aside from maybe a Silver Tower LOW - but I'll let others that know the faction/lore suggest things there.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






No.

Roll them in to a combined book. Have Marks turn units into cult troops; add new generic unit entries which can be customised to cover multiple specific units (eg a Light Daemon Engine entry for Bight Haulers, Bloat Drones, Venom Crawlers, Blood Slaughterers etc); give Legionaries more options so that they can better represent true veterans; and turn Chosen into units of champion equivalents, who can take Daemon weapons and/or mounts.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





No.

Because look how they massacred TS and WE


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
No.

Roll them in to a combined book. Have Marks turn units into cult troops; add new generic unit entries which can be customised to cover multiple specific units (eg a Light Daemon Engine entry for Bight Haulers, Bloat Drones, Venom Crawlers, Blood Slaughterers etc); give Legionaries more options so that they can better represent true veterans; and turn Chosen into units of champion equivalents, who can take Daemon weapons and/or mounts.


This.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/27 08:35:36


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I don't think the way GW has done them is in any way expansive enough, and often they have done nothing but contract their forces... but I'd rather have them than not have them.

So yes.

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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut






Sydney

I play Emperor's Children (I am Emperor's Children), and honestly as much as I gripe about not getting a codex in 9th, playing a Codex CSM list with the EC legion rules never felt generic or half-hearted to me. What I'd actually like to see would be a distinction between the legions and the marine cults that emerged from them - I don't feel like every World Eater has to be a Berzerker, every Death Guard a Plague Marine (I mean, they'd have plagues obviously, but not 'Plague Marine' as a specific type, if you follow me), every Emperor's Child a Noise Marine... Thousands Sons are an exception, the lore kind of does dictate that their rank and file all be Rubik's Marines, but let's set them aside - I know a lot of the legions fell hard to their chosen deity and became cult troops, but the Eye of Terror's a crazy place, consistency doesn't sit well with me. You can be True Khorne and devoted to martial prowess and valour, not just smashing folks' heads in, True Slaanesh without an electric guitar, and so on.

What I'd like to see would be a single Codex Chaos Marines, with the basic cult marines included, as Noise Marines were in 9th - any warband could have a squad of Berzerkers or Plague Marines (or, why not, Roblox Marines) in it, because why not, it used to happen all the time. The Legions get their specific requirements and bonuses - EC for example (just because I'm passingly familiar with them), you pay your points for the Marks and don't have a bunch of Plague Marines stinking up the place, and you get to take more Noise Marines (I've already forgotten how the preview of 10th army list building works, whatever) and you get your EC special rules and wargear/relics and stuff. Then you have not Codex: Emperor's Children, but Codex: Noise Marines (and equivalent codices for the other marine cults), where a pure Noise Marine army can also have Super Noisy Marines and Sonic Obliterators and whatever other special troops they come up with, like they did with the existing Legion codices in 9th - and in those codices, they also have a secondary points list so you can take those super-troops in a regular CSM army, so long as it fulfils fluffy criteria (Codex Noise Marine-specific units only in CSM armies with marks of Slaanesh and Undivided only, for instance), and if you do that the points costs are higher than they are for a pure Codex Noise Marines force. So if you want to run an EC army (or just Slaanesh-specific army using the EC rules, like the Flawless Hos or whatever) and take Super Noisy Marines, but still have access to non-Noise Marine stuff like regular human cultists and, you can - you just have to pay a reasonable premium in points for it. I feel like that's a good balance between making the widest spectrum of troops available to all CSM players, rather than locked away in specific Legion codices, while also having the marine cults have their own identity as an army and structure worth having a codex, not just 'CSM list with a bunch of Noise Marines in it'.

   
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Stubborn White Lion




 Dysartes wrote:
Yes, the four Marked Legions should've been spun out - but they should've done a better job of it.

By which I mean that the insistence that CSM kits can't be used for TS/DG/WE units (at least in the short-term) is silly. DG Havocs, for example, or WE bikers.

Equally, both TS and WE need a wider array of Legion-specific unit entries (Berserker-Surgeons and Red Butchers for WE at a minimum, maybe WE Bloodcrusher Cavalry too).

I will say I'm less clear for TS on what makes sense to keep from the CSM book or add as new options - aside from maybe a Silver Tower LOW - but I'll let others that know the faction/lore suggest things there.


Agreed
   
Made in au
[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..






Toowoomba, Australia

I think the generic CSM troop choice for each chaos god being available for the generic codex is a good balance as it can represent generic war and members leaning in one direction or another, or getting a small allied contingent to the war and, without stepping on the toes of the specific god related codexes. So noise marines, plague marines, rubric marines and bezerkers being in the generic csm codex….

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Made in us
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Yes, if for no other reason than to give Abby a summer vacation every so often. The more of these subfactions that get a supplement+, the more variety the game has.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Good plan, but poorly executed.
Each army needed to have even a fraction of the support Death Guard got and so far it's been a poor initial wave and then AoS tack-ons. I like AoS, it's cool but porting a solid chunk of the Arcanites list onto Thousand Sons was lazy. I know there needs to be some difference between the HH and 40k army lists but if GW was going to expand the Tsons army list with mortal units to represent the smaller size of the Legion then those mortal units needed to fill more gaps than chaff and wizard.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Gert wrote:
Good plan, but poorly executed.
Each army needed to have even a fraction of the support Death Guard got...

That's Death Guard with their lack of Havoks, Raptors, bikes, Vindicators, dinobots, Terminators with power fists, Chosen, Obliterators, Palanquins, Traitor Guard, etc...
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Lord Damocles wrote:
That's Death Guard with their lack of Havoks, Raptors, bikes, Vindicators, dinobots, Terminators with power fists, Chosen, Obliterators, Palanquins, Traitor Guard, etc...

18 units (more kits but those are optional doubles or add-ons) compared to Tsons 6 and World Eaters 8.

I'm not getting into a discussion about which army should get what because it had it in Edition X or Codex Y.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Dysartes wrote:Yes, the four Marked Legions should've been spun out - but they should've done a better job of it.

By which I mean that the insistence that CSM kits can't be used for TS/DG/WE units (at least in the short-term) is silly. DG Havocs, for example, or WE bikers.

Equally, both TS and WE need a wider array of Legion-specific unit entries (Berserker-Surgeons and Red Butchers for WE at a minimum, maybe WE Bloodcrusher Cavalry too).

I will say I'm less clear for TS on what makes sense to keep from the CSM book or add as new options - aside from maybe a Silver Tower LOW - but I'll let others that know the faction/lore suggest things there.
Dysartes gave the answer for my Other response. Good idea that was badly executed.

Thousand Sons needs more units badly. There must be space in that lore for more TS Marines besides Exalted Sorcerers, Sorcerers, and Aspiring Sorcerers leading Rubrics (in Power Armor or Terminator Armor). More units like the Infernal Master need to be added.

Death Guard and World Eaters didn't need every non-vehicle unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines removed from their roster. If they feel they need to go that route, they need to greatly expand the number of units available to both Codex. DG have 17 kits that are not shared with CCSM. World Eaters have 8. That's 1 more combined than the 24 Kits Adepta Sororitas received in the two waves. They need to give the Legions more kit love.

Edit: When back to check and Thousand Sons have 6 unique kits. That's 31 kits for 3 legions, with half of those being Death Guard. No wonder they feel so one dimensional. Even Harlequins have 6 kits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/27 15:04:02


 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





Personally I am happy with God-Marked Legions having separate codices.

The reason is I just don't want generic marked units and I don't want a codex that has 100 datasheet entries. I find that the Codex: Space Marines to be an abomination that needs a good culling.

I do though admit that Thousand Sons have been shafted and I hope that WE get a second wave in 10th to fill out their roster. Death Guard sits in my opinion at the best spot with their selection of units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Good plan, but poorly executed.
Each army needed to have even a fraction of the support Death Guard got...

That's Death Guard with their lack of Havoks, Raptors, bikes, Vindicators, dinobots, Terminators with power fists, Chosen, Obliterators, Palanquins, Traitor Guard, etc...


Well, apparently Havocs are not lore appropriate for Death Guard. My guess is Obliterators would fall into that category as well. Mortarion is really not a fan of putting heavy weaponry on infantry.

Personally I don't feel like bikes are a Death guard thing, same with raptors. Chosen are around 50/50 but they need their bespoke kit. The current Chosen feel more Emperor's Children than Death Guard.

I agree that it's weird that Vindicators are not available to DG, but Dinobots are about 50/50 as they really don't have the plague look going for them.

Regarding terminators I am actually quite happy with what we have. I find terminators with power fist to be a very superfluous choice that doesn't give me anything except "I can now play alternative Space Marines". I'd rather have the scythes and flails. They give Death Guard character while Fists would just be another knock-off.

Traitor Guard should just get their own codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/27 15:25:02


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Dysartes wrote:
Yes, the four Marked Legions should've been spun out - but they should've done a better job of it.

By which I mean that the insistence that CSM kits can't be used for TS/DG/WE units (at least in the short-term) is silly. DG Havocs, for example, or WE bikers.

Equally, both TS and WE need a wider array of Legion-specific unit entries (Berserker-Surgeons and Red Butchers for WE at a minimum, maybe WE Bloodcrusher Cavalry too).

I will say I'm less clear for TS on what makes sense to keep from the CSM book or add as new options - aside from maybe a Silver Tower LOW - but I'll let others that know the faction/lore suggest things there.


This. Getting spun out was useful. Getting absolutely gutted in the process was a (very bad) choice GW made.

I'm also not happy with where they decided to go for the non-god legions (and the recent converts), either in the past or now.
I'm very happy for general design decision to abandon colors-as-rules for 10th edition. But they really put on the dunce cap for the CSM faction ability. It isn't the only one (tau also puts me off, some of the others i need to think about more), but for me personally, gambling for 6s via self-damage is just bad. Its not a playstyle I enjoy. And lore-wise doesn't fit a good half of the non-god legions or renegades.

I won't ever pick up CSM in this edition as a main faction. Maybe as allies for one of the chaos armies that actually got interesting and thematic faction rules, but not marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/27 15:31:50


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Eldarsif wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Good plan, but poorly executed.
Each army needed to have even a fraction of the support Death Guard got...

That's Death Guard with their lack of Havoks, Raptors, bikes, Vindicators, dinobots, Terminators with power fists, Chosen, Obliterators, Palanquins, Traitor Guard, etc...


Well, apparently Havocs are not lore appropriate for Death Guard.

Sounds legit.
[Thumb - Untitled.jpg]

[Thumb - images.jpg]

   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Yes, but not like this. There could be far more units and individuality than they've implemented so far.
   
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 Eldarsif wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Good plan, but poorly executed.
Each army needed to have even a fraction of the support Death Guard got...

That's Death Guard with their lack of Havoks, Raptors, bikes, Vindicators, dinobots, Terminators with power fists, Chosen, Obliterators, Palanquins, Traitor Guard, etc...


Well, apparently Havocs are not lore appropriate for Death Guard. My guess is Obliterators would fall into that category as well. Mortarion is really not a fan of putting heavy weaponry on infantry.

I'm sick of this garbage justification.

Mortarion hasn't done jack gak to lead the Death Guard until just recent. There's no reason Death Guard wouldn't adapt to use other ways of warfare. On top of that, the units still existed in 30k anyway.
   
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 alextroy wrote:

Death Guard and World Eaters didn't need every non-vehicle unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines removed from their roster. If they feel they need to go that route, they need to greatly expand the number of units available to both Codex. DG have 17 kits that are not shared with CCSM. World Eaters have 8. That's 1 more combined than the 24 Kits Adepta Sororitas received in the two waves. They need to give the Legions more kit love.

This depends on a shared kit = shared unit. I'd argue a Chaosified Apothecary should be a unit choice to begin with, so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?
   
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Germany

EviscerationPlague wrote:
 alextroy wrote:

Death Guard and World Eaters didn't need every non-vehicle unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines removed from their roster. If they feel they need to go that route, they need to greatly expand the number of units available to both Codex. DG have 17 kits that are not shared with CCSM. World Eaters have 8. That's 1 more combined than the 24 Kits Adepta Sororitas received in the two waves. They need to give the Legions more kit love.

This depends on a shared kit = shared unit. I'd argue a Chaosified Apothecary should be a unit choice to begin with, so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?


It's because corporate wills it so. That's the gist of it - nowadays the 'GW Hobby' is a product you consume, not something you do. Things they offer need to be legally protectable, and they need a name and label you can find in the store with minimal effort. 'Just convert it' or 'Kitbash your own' or 'Use a Chaos Apothecary with appropriate wargear' are all pre-2010s solutions; 2020s GW does not recognize these as viable anymore. Their Universe increasingly consists of the contents of the Online Store, and not much else, and the hobby and creativity dimensions get tuned out more and more. A sad, but probably ultimately unavoidable result of their change from hobbyist-led garage firm to corporate Behemoth that started in the late 90s and has been picking up speed since then. They realized that their chief capital was their hold on their IPs, and protecting that (for them) meant to tighten everything down and curtail all possibilities for creativity, because creativity was seen as a vector of intrusion for outside material and third-party contenders.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn White Lion




Tsagualsa wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 alextroy wrote:

Death Guard and World Eaters didn't need every non-vehicle unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines removed from their roster. If they feel they need to go that route, they need to greatly expand the number of units available to both Codex. DG have 17 kits that are not shared with CCSM. World Eaters have 8. That's 1 more combined than the 24 Kits Adepta Sororitas received in the two waves. They need to give the Legions more kit love.

This depends on a shared kit = shared unit. I'd argue a Chaosified Apothecary should be a unit choice to begin with, so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?


It's because corporate wills it so. That's the gist of it - nowadays the 'GW Hobby' is a product you consume, not something you do. Things they offer need to be legally protectable, and they need a name and label you can find in the store with minimal effort. 'Just convert it' or 'Kitbash your own' or 'Use a Chaos Apothecary with appropriate wargear' are all pre-2010s solutions; 2020s GW does not recognize these as viable anymore. Their Universe increasingly consists of the contents of the Online Store, and not much else, and the hobby and creativity dimensions get tuned out more and more. A sad, but probably ultimately unavoidable result of their change from hobbyist-led garage firm to corporate Behemoth that started in the late 90s and has been picking up speed since then. They realized that their chief capital was their hold on their IPs, and protecting that (for them) meant to tighten everything down and curtail all possibilities for creativity, because creativity was seen as a vector of intrusion for outside material and third-party contenders.


Well that is all very true and depressing!

Particularly as they are doing so well by it, little chance of a rethink.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/27 16:07:51


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Thousand Sons specifically need to be their own book because that army has to scratch out half the CSM codex to be Thousand Sons. The other three cult legions don't have the same issue and trying to pretend they do has lead to some very arbitrary restrictions in their army lists.
   
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 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons specifically need to be their own book because that army has to scratch out half the CSM codex to be Thousand Sons.

Not really, seeing that they have access to regular CSM vehicles to begin with and I don't believe a single Rubric or Sorcerer is driving those.
   
Made in us
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The CSM vehicles are operated by Rubrics, there's a picture in the codex of a Rubric manning the combi-bolter on a rhino.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I think one of the issues is that, unlike AoS, the 40k God books are named after specific Legions rather than with more generic terms.
For example, take the Death Guard and Hedonites of Slaanesh.
With the Death Guard there is a specific history associated with the name. You can go onto a Wiki or watch a YouTube video specifically about the Death Guard where they are very different from say the Purge or Grey Death. Even if you have your own custom Warband, the army name is still Death Guard.
For the Hedonites of Slaanesh, there is no baseline. The two big mortal characters are complete opposites with one being obsessed with personal beauty and the other being obsessed with tasting the most delicious meals in the Realms. You're not playing the Decadent Host, you're playing Hedonites with the option to theme your army after the Decadent Host.
Change the names to be less specific and throw in some characters that exist for the more dedicated Warbands that aren't explicitly part of the Legions and I think it would help a bit. That and make the CSM Codex good enough for people who want to do a God-aligned army but aren't too into it yet.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Good plan, but poorly executed.
Each army needed to have even a fraction of the support Death Guard got...

That's Death Guard with their lack of Havoks, Raptors, bikes, Vindicators, dinobots, Terminators with power fists, Chosen, Obliterators, Palanquins, Traitor Guard, etc...


Well, apparently Havocs are not lore appropriate for Death Guard. My guess is Obliterators would fall into that category as well. Mortarion is really not a fan of putting heavy weaponry on infantry.

I'm sick of this garbage justification.

Mortarion hasn't done jack gak to lead the Death Guard until just recent. There's no reason Death Guard wouldn't adapt to use other ways of warfare. On top of that, the units still existed in 30k anyway.

The hilarious thing is, not only can Death Guard use Heavy Support Squads (the obvious precursors of Havocs) in HH, they even have a Right of War that lets you take them as Troops.

So, I guess Morty changed his mind on the whole heavy weapons thing at some point after the Heresy?
   
 
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