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Wich factions are the strongest
Space marines
Tyranids
Chaos space marines
Necrons
Guard
Chaos demons
Adeptus Sororitas
Votann
World eaters
Adeptus mechanicus
Eldar
Death guard
Imperial knights
Tau
Chaos knights
Adeptus custodes
Orks
Thousand sons
Grey knights
Dark eldar
Inquisiton/imperial agents
Genestealer cults
Dark angels
Blood angels
Space Wolves
Black templars
Titans?

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Saw this topic on bolter and chain sword and was wondering what the fine folks on dakka's thoughts where.

Please select which you think is the strongest and if you feel like it tell us in the comments wich is the strongest, weakest, and why you think the way you do on the subject.

Thought this could be fun to look back on once 10 comes out and we have a few games under our belt to see how close we where as a comunitty and individualy.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Eh I voted backwards.

I'd say Adeptus Sororitas is the weakest. It can't really be frontloaded when they're most able to use it AND it's not a blanket use - if they have 15 units, they have to earn 15 miracle dice, a miracle dice with a 1 is almost surely useless given the changes to Leadership/Battleshock/Morale. Maybe there's something left where rolling low "wins" but I can't think of it right now.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






You may need to make another post for a poll specifically the weakest.

Right now I think the strongest is between the space marines and the eldar.

The weakest is clearly my factions and they need a boost immediately or the game is ruined forever.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Space Marines are definitely up there.

Oath of Moment is free, happens automatically every turn (potentially more than once with the right character) and all but guarantees that a key unit in your opponent's army will be annihilated.

Their detachment ability also adds a lot of utility. Once per game each their entire army can:
- Be markedly faster than both Eldar and Dark Eldar when it comes to moving and shooting.
- Be markedly faster than both Eldar and Dark Eldar when it comes to getting to combat.
- Fall back from any number of combats and still shoot/charge afterwards.

Their detachment ability alone is more than some factions have received from their army rules and detachment abilities combined.


I'd also be inclined to agree with Eldar being a close second (though it's a little harder to judge because their ability doesn't scale at all with game size). Nevertheless, being able to guarantee key rolls - especially damage rolls - is very powerful. Likewise, rerolling a hit roll and a wound roll for all of their units is very nice.


That said, while I think those are the strongest abilities, my picks for the most flavourful would be:

1) Chaos Daemons - a really great mechanic that encourages both players to fight hard to keep control of the objectives. A really nice way of representing an daemonic incursion.

2) SoB - while they might lose out to Eldar in power, especially early on, I do prefer the mechanic of gaining Miracle Dice when their units die. And it's similarly thematic that losing models in a unit lets the surviving models fight with greater fervour.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Special mention to Chaos Space Marines and World Eaters who didn't get their detachment rules shown in their previews.

Strongest - Space Marines. They are going to have to be very expensive marine bodies.

Weakest - Death Guard. They are going to have to be very cheap marine bodies.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Plenty of delusions in thread lol

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I don't know who the strongest is. Eldar stuff seems to be potentialy strong. Custodes stuff looks , aside for the need to replace all axes with halbards, at worse fun to play at the , work as they do in the lore aka a custodes really is a t6-7 mini tank. But the stuff that was done to DG. I just don't understand it. It is not that index should or would have the power of a full blown codex. Of course they wouldn't. And maybe they hav some hidden gems not shown. But DG players are going to have to play a year+ with the rule set. Also vs people getting codex. Maybe it has the DG feel, I wouldn't know much about that, but Custodes have a Custodes feel and are clearly at least impresive stat wise.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ireland

From what we have seen so far, Dark Eldar I think are the strongest.

They are going to out right murder infantry, hitting on3+ wounding on 3+, with a lot of attacks from very fast & sneaky gun platforms. Their ability plays into itself perfectly, is simple and very effective.

Also, with the Venom's ability it can move behind cover, unit can disembark, shoot, and then get back on the Venom, leaving the enemy unable to retaliate. That is insanely good!

Biggest hard counter to them seems to be Knights of both varieties. Even all mechanised forces will come unglued due to the sheer volume of Dark Lances Dark Eldar seem to have, seriously... those things must be 10 a dozen in Commoragh.

Even at Combat Patrol (which their current Combat Patrol Box looks to be the best), they start with 2 pain tokens, and it just gets better from there on in. I strongly thing Dark Eldar forces are going to be drowning in pain tokens during their games.

So yeah, Dark Eldar are going to be the dogs bollocks.

The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Sisters had one of the weakest because it showed off all but 1 shooting weapon and nothing was capable of dealing with armor AND because they're one of the few groups that had an apples to apples comparison with another faction and comes out VERY much on the bottom.

NONE of the previews were enough to really say either way about the faction as a whole, but the Sister's one gave far more complete information (at least about their shooting capabilities) than any of the others did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/30 23:47:08



 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I mean, when a Sister is only 5 points to a Marine being 30, they’re gonna crush it! /s

We don’t have points values. That’s a HUGE part of what will be effective and what won’t be. If what I just posted above is accurate, GW is dumb, and Sisters will dominate, Marines will be trash, or both.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor




I have been waiting for them to reveal GSC and now that they have I am not impressed in the slightest bit. The new cult ambush is just....so uninspired. Recycling garbage is just more garbage, Neophytes and Acolytes aren't exactly punching that hard from what we can see and they can't take a hit. They designed the army to be a tactical precision force but clearly GW doesn't have the rules writing ability to make that happen. I had my complaints about the 9th codex but I loved Cult Ambush and Crossfire/Exposed.

Sure, there could be a whole litany of things not shown in the faction focus but I am not going to theorize on what might be and look at what we know for certain. 10th might be the most fun anyone has had in a long time with 40k but it is already looking like there are clear winners and losers.
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





I would have to agree that Space Marine and Eldar are probably the best obvious ones with the limited information we have i.e no points, few data sheets, no enhancements, etc.

Space Marine's faction of just full re-rolls against one unit (with no need to generate dice or tokens or points it just functions every turn) is pretty massive, especially against an army like knights or custodians. Their detachment ability is really solid as well, especially allowing army wide advance and charge for one turn, which even if that was the only doctrine, is still better than a lot of the other detachment abilities.

Eldar's faction is just miracle dice, but front loaded. We also know that Farseer's can change a 1 to a 6 so no wasted dice (who is not bring farseers?) I play Eldar and being able to drop sixes is huge, especially for saves. Their detachment is also a proven great ability, re-roll one hit AND one wound. That is going to make their AT weapons so much more efficient.

I think all the other factions are pretty well balanced with each other, other than Death Guard, who got screwed, especially with the detachment ability which is basically pointless (if the objective stayed sick it would be much better)

I do think that some factions may be better than the currently appear. I also play Thousand Sons, and I am very happy with their faction trait (both in that it is super fluffy and pretty good). Armies built around generating Cabal Points will probably really maximize them. However that means almost all TS lists will be practically identical.

I think the Chaos Knights ability it pretty good throwing out battle shock, although it is a bit uncertain how big a role battle shock will play in every game.

The Genestealer Cult one I think could be the best, but it is going to be swing-y. If you can resurrect everything but characters, then roll hot on the 4+, that could turn into a real issue for your opponent.

Finally, I think the Chaos Space Marine dark pacts might be a sleeper hit. We don't know their detachment ability (why GW why), but looking at their faction ability again, they get to select either sustained hits or lethal hits for every unit in the army, with no chance of failure, and only take d3 mortals about 30% of the time. Who knows if they can heal that as well or get any mortal wound protection abilities. I am probably using that ability on every meaningful attack every single time.

Just my thoughts

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I agree we can't call "faction power" without points.

But we can look at utility.

For example Oath of Moment is powerful in boosting damage. But Combat Doctrines giving you army-wide advance and fire, fall back to shoot and charge, or advance and charge is probably bigger. Movement abilities win games - and give you a decisive advantage over factions which don't have them.

So for example, griping about DE may get old - but losing turn 2 army wide advance and charge for a stratagem on Wych Cult units is a massive nerf everything else being the same.

So from the top, instant judgement on re-reading the army rules and detachment rules.

Marines - lets say A tier. Great combination as said.
Tyranids - probably B tier at best, maybe lower. More damage from Hyper-Adaptions is nice but likely not critical. Its hard to call Synapse because if little gaunts just had 2-3 lower LD would you really care? Battleshock is possibly important - but still. Shadow of the Warp will win games when some key units fail the battleshock test, but its not going to be reliable.
CSM - Don't get a detachment rule. Leaning C tier as a result. Unlike some I don't hate Dark Pacts as a concept - but it seems a bit weird that Tyranids can just "get" lethal hits/sustained hits or precision - while CSM can get the first two for a phase, but with a reasonably decent chance of eating mortal wounds. The trade off is presumably that you can decide which one will help you best - but still. It feels like an intrinsic inferiority.
Necrons - C tier. Reanimation seems so-so. Command Protocols is probably okay but I hate how it will dictate builds. Especially if Necrons have been prematurely nerfed to allow for it.
Guard - B Tier. Orders will continue to be great. Lethal hits if you stand still will add up.
Daemons - A or C Tier. You basically get the Necron ability but also debuff the opponent while in the Shadow of Chaos. Really feels like if you can get the No Mans Land objectives turn 2 you are in a great spot, if you don't then you basically don't have an ability. So not entirely sure how to call that.
Sisters - going to go with B. I think Miracle Dice are a powerful mechanic, but exactly how many you'll get (and when) isn't so clear. I feel Blood of Martyrs would very rarely come up in 9th - whether the "lower damage output" means you regularly have units at half strength remains to be seen. Nice on Exorcists maybe?

And I have to go so will continue this later.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Tyel wrote:

CSM - Don't get a detachment rule. Leaning C tier as a result. Unlike some I don't hate Dark Pacts as a concept - but it seems a bit weird that Tyranids can just "get" lethal hits/sustained hits or precision - while CSM can get the first two for a phase, but with a reasonably decent chance of eating mortal wounds. The trade off is presumably that you can decide which one will help you best - but still. It feels like an intrinsic inferiority.


Pretty sure they get a detachment bonus but they haven't shown it yet.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sorry, thats what I meant to say. I agree they will get one. But just going off the review.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I actually think Thousand Sons might've been one of the stronger ones revealed so far. Depending on how many Cabal points you load up on, you can both destroy a unit with Doombolt and then deny a unit their armor saves. The Detachment rule isn't the STRONGEST but that's gonna be dependent on the rest of the Psykers. Ahri gets little but even the two shots from the Rubric Sorcerer will like it.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I don't think it makes sense to speculate on strength based on such limited information. However, I will say that the Thousand Sons preview is the only one that had me excited about every part of the preview. The CSM, asuryani, and drukhari previews all had me varying levels of nervous or disappointed. The Thousand Sons preview just had lots of solid-seeming choices.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




The TS army rule is very good. The TS detachment rule is currently very weak looking absent missing information.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





EightFoldPath wrote:
The TS army rule is very good. The TS detachment rule is currently very weak looking absent missing information.

I feel like I'm missing something. Between 2 attacks from the smite and 3 attacks from the force staff, that's 5 aspiring sorcerer attacks to potentially benefit from one of the Cult of Magic special rules. It doesn't seem amazing, but you're reasonably likely to do a smidgeon of extra damage if you're using your rubric squads and sorcerers aggressively.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/31 23:09:59



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




A smidgeon of extra damage is not good enough for a detachment rule.

5 squads of Aspiring Rubric Sorcerers Warpsmiting some Terminators would do 5 mortal wounds (with re-roll all wounds) without the detachment rule. The only upgrade of the three is sutained hits for Warpsmite, which increases your 5 squads output to 6.25 mortal wounds, it just isn't enough when you consider 5 x 5 Rubrics is probably around 500 points.

For shooting, a 10 Rubric squad will have 1 Bolt Pistol shot, 16 Bolter shots and 5 Soulreaper shots that get nothing from the detachment and 2 Warpsmite shots that do.

For combat, the same squad will have 18 close combat attacks that get nothing from the detachment and 3 Staff attacks that do.

A Predator tank, a Mutalith Vortex Beast, a Tzaangor will all potentially have zero PSYCHIC attacks therefore they get nothing from the detachment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/31 23:34:15


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





How much extra damage does an aspiring sorcerer do in melee as a result of the detachment rule?

(Not dying on any hills. Just genuinely curious.)


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Wyldhunt wrote:
How much extra damage does an aspiring sorcerer do in melee as a result of the detachment rule?

(Not dying on any hills. Just genuinely curious.)
Against a T4 3+ W2 Target…

Baseline: 1.33 wounds, 1.11 damage
Lethal Hits: 1.5 wounds, 1.25 damage
Sustained Hits: 1.67 wounds, 1.39 damage
Devastating Wounds: 1 wound and .33 Devastating Wounds, 1.5 damage

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Imperial Agents.

Generic Inquisitor might be the worst thing since Generic Daemons in 4th Ed.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




EightFoldPath wrote:
A smidgeon of extra damage is not good enough for a detachment rule.


I'd argue it's actually really good for the Rubric Sorcerers. They get the Anti-Infantry 4+, so with the devastating wounds they get a mortal wound right?
Haven't memorized the new USR yet.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 JNAProductions wrote:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
How much extra damage does an aspiring sorcerer do in melee as a result of the detachment rule?

(Not dying on any hills. Just genuinely curious.)
Against a T4 3+ W2 Target…

Baseline: 1.33 wounds, 1.11 damage
Lethal Hits: 1.5 wounds, 1.25 damage
Sustained Hits: 1.67 wounds, 1.39 damage
Devastating Wounds: 1 wound and .33 Devastating Wounds, 1.5 damage


So going off of EightFold's numbers, that's about another 0.25 bonus damgae from the smite. So 1.75 extra damage per turn for each aspiring sorcerer that shoots and fights, right? Not overwhelming and doesn't do much to change how the army plays, but it seems okay. Also seems like a bit of a feels-good rule as your sorcerer attacks are going to go a bit further in a pinch.

Not sure how it compares to say, 3 extra pain tokens (the DE detachment bonus) or the extra hits in the second half of the game from Kau'Yon.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

That’s .39 bonus damage from melee.
1.11 is baseline damage.
1.5 is average damage for best case scenario, which is a different bonus than you want for your shooting.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Picking the package apart feels a bit weird until we get some alternatives.

I think its fair to say that since you don't seem to be getting that many psychic attacks, the average impact of lethal hits/sustained hits/devastating wounds is going to be modest.

I think sustained is probably the choice in most circumstances. Fishing for mortals with Ahriman's psychic stalk to snipe characters/wipe units would be tempting - but its not going to happen very often. Lethal hits into say vehicles where you'd normally be wounding on 6s produces a big % increase in output - but the raw figure is still so low that its not worth getting excited about.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I mean, until things shake out, I'm scared of anything in Knight form. And I play Custodes.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, until things shake out, I'm scared of anything in Knight form. And I play Custodes.

Luckily we have those Axes to handle big targets!

Wait...
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





I think Man Portable against Main Battle Tanks+ (Land Raiders, Knights, The Really Big Suit, etc) isn't (generally) going to be a thing this edition - there may be a faction here and there that does it with Anti-Vehicle X+, but even the Lascannon is 1 shot (per) wounding on 4's and 5's. - and I'd wonder if the Deep Striking T14 Monolith is a bigger scare than the T12 Knight. Knights could be getting the shaft "because they get 4 or more" while the Monolith, Wraithknight etc are more likely to be 1 and done - but back to the main point - I suspect many factions will find it difficult to deal with multiples of these larger tougher vehicles if they go Infantry only. Space Marines with 12 (4x3 Devs)Lascannon are going to get 12 shots, 9ish hits (assuming Man Portable Non Godhammer has the same statline but probably does BS4+, Heavy, Standing Still) Oathed to 10-11 - Less than 2.5-Just Under 3 woundings oathed to 5 or so doing a very streaky average 16ish damage after armor saves. And while we no longer have Dedicated Slots so taking Rule of 3 levels of Devs doesn't max out your Heavy Support slots - that's still a significant outlay that will be far less efficient if the opponent doesn't have that stuff while 3 Vindicators (assuming the Demolisher Cannon translates exactly from the Baneblade) will start out better than that as a baseline Minimum 4 shots per, Higher S...

I'd guess this just gets worse for non-Marines who don't have Oath of Moment. Maybe Guard and their Heavy Weapons Squads can spam Lascannon - but that's unlikely. 3 units of 3 teams is only 9 - even if the HW Teams double in potential size like the Infantry Squad in the teaser - 3 units of teams is 18 16% less accurate lascannon working out to about 15 before OOM which probably pumped the SM 12 up to about equivalent 20 or so with the rerolls. Aeldari are probably in worse shape on the Man Portable front - they can't make an entire squad of Heavy Weapons Platforms with a couple Guardians - but their vehicles are in better shape than the Space Marines who mostly put Man Portable Guns on their tanks and speeders and such. The All-Comers meta that shakes out of this will be interesting. Deathguard may have to leverage Predators and Land Raiders with their Faction Aura: though S12 vs T14-1 makes no change on the Monolith they will get tractions vs the T13 Guard Super Heavy Tanks and the the T12 Landraider with their S12 lascannon. Still I'm not sure making Deathguard look more like Iron Lords is really the way to go. DG could need a (something) pretty quick out of the gate. Maybe the Defiler or the Helbrute will have something nice for them - or a potential new unit similar to the Warp Vortex. Tau were already frequently vehicle friendly, and their big guns on there just got better plus the Focused version of the PBC will be (likely) wounding a lot of vehicles on 2's including the Land Raider (if the chart stays the same). The aforementioned Warp Vortex could likely see a lot of play. Haven't seen enough Knight guns to know what they're going to do because the Loyalist teaser had a character not a big knight. If we extrapolate from the Chaos Knights, maybe the Thermal Spear corrolaries show up, or maybe the very generous Rapid Fire Range/Bonus Shots of the Battlecannon makes it more advantageous to just battle cannon everything but the Chaos Knights suggest there's a big enough performance difference to go Thermal. The Thundercoil Harpoon is mostly just silly. Misses on a 1, almost anything hit on a 2 or a 3 will be wounded on a 2 and almost certainly unable to Armor Save, almost anything hit on a 4+ will be Mortal Wounded. Don't get me wrong, its very potent, but still a little silly. The Nids Rupture Cannon appears to be a more normal - though they appear to have a similar Man Portable (little Bug) vs Vehicle (Monstrous Bugs) thing going on that may also carry on to their big bug melee the Swarm Lord's (usually considered something of a big bug) has Bone Sabers that are S9, Twin Linked but not anti-vehicle. Custodes (and less so Grey Knights) already had limited choices in this area - and if they don't get a boost on their Vertus lances, will be pretty much limited to their Land Raiders for Rank and File ranged S11+. Sisters have plenty of vehicles with unique guns/stats/etc like the Castigator and its sanctified shell (that we didn't see) that they could be in anything from great to lousy shape. Didn't see much from the Orks, other than GW really wants us to buy a Stompa or two that may be good, or may be stuck in the only place you could deploy the thing in the first place. GSC could be in a tough spot depending on what they do with their Sort-of-Lascannon-Mining-Lasers - a whole lot of biker/Jeep lascannon could be pretty potent.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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