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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

Both from DS9: Eddington or Dukat. Dukat probably ahead by a nose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 02:56:46


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Reading the headline, Dukat immediatly came to mind.

Q is also up there for me, even though I'm not completely sure if he is a villain in that sense.

Looking at whole factions instead of individuals I personally really like the Cardassians. Interesting looking ships, interesting costumes, clearly identifyable architecture, and not the romulan "we have bigger ships, cloaking, superior intelligence but are still loosing" thing going. The later might be a personal thing, but I never really liked that.
Also looking at their civilisation and Cardassias Lack of ressources I could believe the chain of decisions leading to the political system they had.

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Weyoun. All of them.

Such a slimy, horrible little worm. But never as clever as he thinks.

   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Easily Khan. Montalban edition, of course. Q is definitely high on the list, though.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Kai Winn

Interesting, complex and one of those bad eggs that really isn't too different to our "heroes" in a certain light, and whilst she was power hungry and selfish you could see how being a follower of higher powers that actually exist but more or less ignore you and favour outsiders and randoms drove her a tad evilzor, and always a stunning performance from the late and great Louise Fletcher

Honorable mention to the Wayoons

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Dunno. Winn does get her redemption of sorts. And as you said, being highly religious about gods you know exist (it’s just the nature of them that’s in dispute), and have them never talk to you is quite the mitigating circumstance.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Dukat

I think in many ways because he's complex and unlike a lot of villains in series, he isn't one the entire time.

He's actually a very realistic portrayal of one because you always know he's only on "his" side. However sometimes he's standing with you, sometimes he's standing against you, sometimes he's just off to the side.


I think the fact that he gets so much screen time through DS9 makes him a lot deeper than many others. He gets a chance to shine and because of the twists and turns of the story and its politics his position shifts around. I think that adds a lot of dynamic to his character. He's not just a one-note character. Plus we don't get the standard "was bad but then turned good" angle that often is used to show depth to a darker character.


He's complex with many layers and I think that makes him one of the best you ever see in startrek.



I think it also makes it a rather unfair competition as its very hard to compete with Dukut for screen time and depth. Many others only get one or two episodes, a film or they are an entity more like the Borg. Indeed I'd wager many other contenders might also come from the DS9 series.


Q is interesting to suggest. I never really saw him as a Villain. He's not really evil so much as child-like in many ways. However he does also generally put most of his toys back where he found them by the end of an episode.

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Made in de
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Khaaaaaaaaaaan!

Not just because you can't beat Ricardo Montalban for style, but also because he's from the pre-Next Generation era. It feels like predating what I consider the formalization of the Federation in Next Generation lets him be a character of his own, while many later characters feel like they exist primarily to question Federation values.

Though Overread's points about Dukat are very good, too.

Also, I'm sure we're all thinking of Janeway as a villain, just that she's nobody's favorite, right?

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DS9 had the serialisation that meant characters like Dukat, Weyoun, and Winn had the chance to shine. I also think in many cases the antagonism is a lot more personal rather than just being a general annoyance. For example, Winn is hated because of her relationship with Kira Nerys which informs her interactions with other characters like Sisko.

But in terms of villainy, Dukat takes it every time. He's a villain on a personal and galactic scale causing problems from the minute we first meet him to his demise in the Fire Caves. |He never pretends to be anything but the exemplary Cardassian even if that sometimes means we sympathise with his position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 11:31:03


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






The key to Dukat, and Wynn (Winn?) is that they’re consistent.

Mostly consistent through self-interest. Very rarely do either of them risk their own position, glory or safety unless absolutely avoidable.

Both are preening poppinjays who will take any opportunity to advance themself, or shove someone else down,

Dukat I think might edge Wynn (Winn?) out simply because we The Audience get to see him as the hero a few times, most notably marauding behind enemy lines in his stolen Klingon Bird of Prey. He’s no less of an anus, but he’s painted, however temporarily, as The Hero.

Wynn kind of comes across as just sort of….pathetic. A petty, jealous person always worried about their standing and envious of others. Quite narcissistic overall.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oxfordshire

Odo
His villainous morality and righteousness were always getting in the way of the pure and noble pursuit of greed. A heinous character.

Worf
A villain for stealing every other races sense of identity. Everything is always about the Klingons. Always! O'Brien is mourning a fallen human comrade in a very human fashion, Worf interrupts and does he let the human do the human thing? No, of course not, he's Worf and everything is about Klingons, always! He says "You are doing this Klingon thing, I will do it with you" stealing away O'Brien's humanness. A true thief of a character.

Whomever designed Troy's character
We get seven seasons of Troy being the conduit for extra-corporeal beings, impregnated without consent and contributing such wisdom as "William, I sense you are upset" as Riker is in the process of tearing everybody a new one. The writers killed the character at birth, a vicious act of murder.
   
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Reading the headline, Dukat immediatly came to mind.

Q is also up there for me, even though I'm not completely sure if he is a villain in that sense.

Looking at whole factions instead of individuals I personally really like the Cardassians. Interesting looking ships, interesting costumes, clearly identifyable architecture, and not the romulan "we have bigger ships, cloaking, superior intelligence but are still loosing" thing going. The later might be a personal thing, but I never really liked that.
Also looking at their civilisation and Cardassias Lack of ressources I could believe the chain of decisions leading to the political system they had.


I like the Cardassians in general for the same reason I like Dukat. Three dimeonsional, tragic villains, IMO.

First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





almost forgot Obergruppenführer Janeway, the apex of Starfleets "nice" facade hiding a truly unhinged tyrant

Not content with getting Harry 1 killed she makes Harry 2's life misery

Telling Seven her borgy ways are not on as there's one voice on Voyager and its hers, Resistance is indeed futile

Tolerating that Jawa in a fancy coat (Neelix)

Killing Toovix because reasons

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 12:55:27


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Weyoun. All of them.

Such a slimy, horrible little worm. But never as clever as he thinks.


Very cool. I liked Weyoun 6, I think it was, however; the one who suicided to save Odo's life. It kind of indicated that even among the Wetouns, redemption was possible. I also loved the Wyoun's arguing and trying to score points on each other in that episode. Jeffrey Combs is a lot of fun to watch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ahtman wrote:
Easily Khan. Montalban edition, of course.


Good tragic villain in the classical sense!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 12:53:06


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






In terms of Weyoun’s performance, it’s impressive just how emotionless his face tends to be. Yes that does crack now and again, but most of the time he’s impassive and inexpressive, which for me only adds to the untrustworthy air of the Vorta.


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Kai Winn

Interesting, complex and one of those bad eggs that really isn't too different to our "heroes" in a certain light, and whilst she was power hungry and selfish you could see how being a follower of higher powers that actually exist but more or less ignore you and favour outsiders and randoms drove her a tad evilzor, and always a stunning performance from the late and great Louise Fletcher

Honorable mention to the Wayoons


She was a really good actress, which was exactly the reason I didn't like her character. Winn was TOO well played and just TOO creepy for my taste.

But, as you say, Fletcher did a great job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dunno. Winn does get her redemption of sorts. And as you said, being highly religious about gods you know exist (it’s just the nature of them that’s in dispute), and have them never talk to you is quite the mitigating circumstance.


Yeah. She was just too stuck on herself, and never quite made it to hero, though when all was lost, she did a good, final 180.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
Dukat

I think in many ways because he's complex and unlike a lot of villains in series, he isn't one the entire time.
"... ..."

He's complex with many layers and I think that makes him one of the best you ever see in startrek.



I think it also makes it a rather unfair competition as its very hard to compete with Dukut for screen time and depth. Many others only get one or two episodes, a film or they are an entity more like the Borg. Indeed I'd wager many other contenders might also come from the DS9 series.

"... ..."



IMHO, Star Trek really grew up in DS9. It was no longer just one-damn-episode-after-another-all-resolved-within-an-hour-or-maybe-a-two-episode-arc-if-we-got-lucky. DS9 was a true saga.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/09 13:02:01


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Strange how “what’s best in Trek” once again revolves around DS9.

It really is the stand-out series for defining Star Trek.

I mean, in seven series the Federation and Klingons were refined and to some extent redefined. Ferengi, Bajoran, Cardassian and The Dominion are all codified and developed.

It deals so well with the end of the Federation’s “childhood” as it finally meets a foe it can’t trick or negotiate with, but must have a proper, honest to goodness stand up fight against them. And as Picard eventually showed, it never managed to get back to entirely noble ideals.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Geifer wrote:
Khaaaaaaaaaaan!

Not just because you can't beat Ricardo Montalban for style, but also because he's from the pre-Next Generation era. It feels like predating what I consider the formalization of the Federation in Next Generation lets him be a character of his own, while many later characters feel like they exist primarily to question Federation values.

Though Overread's points about Dukat are very good, too.

Also, I'm sure we're all thinking of Janeway as a villain, just that she's nobody's favorite, right?


I can certainly see your point, though I don't care for Khan as a villain, because I know I could beat him.

If he transported into my kitchen this morning and threatened to kill me, I wouldn't be worried, because I know that he'd get into some long, tragic soliloquy, and I'd bash him over the head with the toaster while he was rambling on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
In universe? Michael Burnham.


Out of universe? Bryan Fuller and Alex Kurtzman





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Henry wrote:


Whomever designed Troy's character
We get seven seasons of Troy being the conduit for extra-corporeal beings, impregnated without consent and contributing such wisdom as "William, I sense you are upset" as Riker is in the process of tearing everybody a new one. The writers killed the character at birth, a vicious act of murder.


Troi is every social worker I ever met. [shudders]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
almost forgot Obergruppenführer Janeway, the apex of Starfleets "nice" facade hiding a truly unhinged tyrant

Not content with getting Harry 1 killed she makes Harry 2's life misery

Telling Seven her borgy ways are not on as there's one voice on Voyager and its hers, Resistance is indeed futile

Tolerating that Jawa in a fancy coat (Neelix)

Killing Toovix because reasons



I TRULY DESPISE VOYAGER, but yup, yup, double yup yup and a last, major yup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In terms of Weyoun’s performance, it’s impressive just how emotionless his face tends to be. Yes that does crack now and again, but most of the time he’s impassive and inexpressive, which for me only adds to the untrustworthy air of the Vorta.



Their utter deviousness and selfishness somehow does not clash with their unshakeable faith. They are a great alien race.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/06/09 13:18:16


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in ca
Rampaging Carnifex





Toronto, Ontario

The only right answer is Dukat, who remains one of my favorite villains of any film or TV series. The character was just that well done.

Honorable mentions to Q, the Borg, and Anorax (the enemy captain from Year of Hell). Also gotta give a shout out to the Romulan captain in Balance of Terror in TOS.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Strange how “what’s best in Trek” once again revolves around DS9.

It really is the stand-out series for defining Star Trek.

I mean, in seven series the Federation and Klingons were refined and to some extent redefined. Ferengi, Bajoran, Cardassian and The Dominion are all codified and developed.

It deals so well with the end of the Federation’s “childhood” as it finally meets a foe it can’t trick or negotiate with, but must have a proper, honest to goodness stand up fight against them. And as Picard eventually showed, it never managed to get back to entirely noble ideals.


And characters ACTUALLY GROW IN IT!

Jake, Nog, Odo, Kira, O'Brien, Bashir, the list goes on.

My favorite episode, for the above reason, may well be "Take Me Out To the Holo Suite." At the end, the smarmy, insufferable Vulcan gets incinerated in his own ego, Sisko learns that baseball is only a game, and QUARK BUYS A ROUND OF DRINKS FOR THE HOUSE!

Great TV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
The only right answer is Dukat, who remains one of my favorite villains of any film or TV series. The character was just that well done.

Honorable mentions to Q, the Borg, and Anorax (the enemy captain from Year of Hell). Also gotta give a shout out to the Romulan captain in Balance of Terror in TOS.


Agreed on all points and all levels!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 13:26:55


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in us
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SoCal

 Geifer wrote:
Khaaaaaaaaaaan!

Not just because you can't beat Ricardo Montalban for style, but also because he's from the pre-Next Generation era. It feels like predating what I consider the formalization of the Federation in Next Generation lets him be a character of his own, while many later characters feel like they exist primarily to question Federation values.

Though Overread's points about Dukat are very good, too.

Also, I'm sure we're all thinking of Janeway as a villain, just that she's nobody's favorite, right?


I was absolutely going to bring up Janeway.

Outside of DS9, which had an unfair advantage, I’d have to pick Khan for the movies, the Cardassian who tortured Picard for Next Gen, the Holodeck Clown from Voyager, the Andorians from Enterprise, and from TOS the telekinetic alien who made a little person ride Kirk like a horse.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Late to the party but i'll agree with the majority, I thought Dukat as soon as i saw the question,

or i'd throw in the writers if voyager who didn't allow the series to grow in the direction it should have done, a federation ship, growing more and more damaged as it went, with noticeably fewer crew to rely on (40+ deaths of a compliment of 141),

 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Armus, by a long shot. They can make fun of him, but oh boy, should he ever escape that planet...


Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Oxfordshire

SamusDrake wrote:
Armus, by a long shot. They can make fun of him, but oh boy, should he ever escape that planet...


Was he the guy who was the leader of the escaped ex-soldier prisoners that Picard transported from a moon to its planet and said "your problem now"? That was a good villain plot.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





I remember that episode! I think the chap in question was in Robocop 2, but no, Armus was in the episode "Skin of Evil" and I'm sure this will jog your memory...



Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oxfordshire

oof, the guy who wiped out a major character. Yep, he goes in the villain bucket. I've tried to compare Armus killing Tasha against Dukat killing Jadzia, and I always find that Tasha's death, even though it seems violently sudden and relatively early in the series run, has far greater impact than Jadzia's. But then that's also affected by my bias that Jadzia is a terrible character and the weakest part of DS9's otherwise stellar crew.
   
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

As someone who grew up watching TWoK so many times on TV and home video, of course I have to pick Khan. I think it does help a lot that he was a villain written, ultimately, rather simply and straightforward in a time when continuity and canon weren't particularly important.

I never really thought of Q as a villain. Just about every time he was there, he was there to teach Picard and the others a lesson of some sort, but he taught it in a way that they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the end of the lesson. Almost like Q knew that if Q just appeared as an omnipotent being with an Important Message, Q would just be ignored. The lesson had to be learned the hard way in order to stick.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 22:35:52


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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Henry wrote:
oof, the guy who wiped out a major character. Yep, he goes in the villain bucket. I've tried to compare Armus killing Tasha against Dukat killing Jadzia, and I always find that Tasha's death, even though it seems violently sudden and relatively early in the series run, has far greater impact than Jadzia's. But then that's also affected by my bias that Jadzia is a terrible character and the weakest part of DS9's otherwise stellar crew.


Tasha's death felt impactful partly because I think she was the first "strong" female character in Startrek up to that point.
She was very different to the counsellor or doctor (both over the series) who are almost more sedate/matriarchal in their roles; whilst Tasha was younger.



Also she's the first main character death I think in serial Startrek*. We are very used to red-shirts being killed off and "this person appeared for 1 episode or 2 episode special" officers/heroes/leaders. But Tasha was very much "main crew" We actually have a very very long wait until way into DS9 before we see that done again. And DS9 was a very deadly/brutal ST setting, and yet even then most of the main cast remained alive and actually increased in number as the series progressed.

ST is not a series where you expect the main cast to die off.


*and even if you include the early films, Spock got better
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Name me a villain whose very name was incorporated the title of a major motion picture?

That would be Khan Noonien Singh.

I see a lot of talk about DS9 and how it had story arcs, but there's also the (obviously biased) claim by J. Michael Straczynsky that his initial treatment for Babylon 5 was essentially pirated by the Star Trek Borg. Curious sort of interplay during the 90s between actors who appeared in one show or the the other (or both!).

If we're going to compare like with like, Alfred Bester wins hands down.


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